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MG TD TF 1500 - Tubeless tires

I am restoring an MGTD.
Is there any way to switch to tubeless tires?
T Scileppi

You're opening a can of worms. IMHO, all you have to is buy a set of tubeless tires and install them. That's with the expectation that your wheels are good shape I have about 20,000 miles on mine. Bud
Bud Krueger

T Scileppi / Bud : on my TD's tubeless are mounted and so far no problems but you should have perfect rims to my best believe .Can of wurms ?? I guess so.
Gerard Hengeveld

I am one of the ones who ran tubless on my car for about 10 years. never even had to really blow them up again after the first time. I know there are those that say they can roll off the rims, but no one I know has ever seen that done or had it happen to them. I drove hard and fast and made a lot of sharp turns at some speed and no problems. If you have a blowout with or without tubes you may have a problem. just my 2 cents worth...PS, I know this will start a discussion.
Tom Maine

Have run tubeless tires on my TD for 35 plus years with no issues. First cross plys and now Kumho radials.
John Quilter (TD8986)

I HAVE seen a tire roll off the rim, and I have also seen a TD spin out on the grass, slide sideways, and barrel roll, stuffing grass between the tire and the rim and the tires all held. These tires all held air, BECAUSE THEY HAD TUBES IN THEM. I have had people tell me that they have driven xxx miles with no tubes and had nothing happen to them. These are the people I do not want driving near me or my loved ones on the highway.
The laws of physics can only be pushed so far. TD/TF rims are tube rims, not safety rims. To be safe, THEY NEED TUBES. The absence of tubes is an automatic fail in the New England MG "T" Register safety-fast check, for a reason.
-David
D. Sander

...and there is the can do worms..

Strong options on both sides..regards, tom
tm peterson

Got to admit I was on the tube side until this summer when I installed new tires. My shop had not issue putting tubeless on. I don't race or other activities that should put a tremendous stress on the side of the tires and so far, they have been great without any issues.

Biggest issue I have with tubes is that if you do get a flat it takes a bit more work to find a shop that has the tubes and will install them.
Bruce Cunha

Totally agree with Dave S,,,,

Check the archives for a thourogh discussion on this issue,,,

SPW,,
STEVE WINCZE

Oh well, tried putting a tubeless tire on a wire wheel once, couldn't figure out why I had 60 leaks! Grin.
I will say this, tubeless rims were designed the way they are for a very good reason, on a blow out, the tire will usually not separate from the rim, Not so in many cases using a tube type rim. Today we are driving at much higher speeds than these cars were originally designed for, so any added input for safety should be considered. I'm also an avid believer in roll bars for these cars. Without a roll bar, the seat belt just helps the crash crew find you easier. Morbid I know, but reality usually is in the forefront on a situation like this. JMHO PJ
Paul Jennings

If you hit something hard enough to deflate and pop a tubeless tire off of the rim, that will be the least of your problems (ie barrel rolling, etc.) How on earth would driving with tubeless endanger anyone else on the highway? Seriously... Tubeless TD since Nov. 23rd, 1972. George PS- nearly rammed at a stoplight Thanksgiving morning by a lady texting in a new Lexus, that is a real problem
George Butz

How? Because the rim is designed to have the tube hold the tire on to seat the bead of the tire. No safety rim and no tube means a tire that can and will deflate without warning.
Why would I not want my loved ones near your car? How much control would you have at speed if a tire flopped off the rim? I know, I know, it hasn't happened to you, yet.
I have been driving MGs since the early 1980s. I haven't needed my seat belt, not even once, but I still wear it.
Another problem is that employees at tire centers have no clue what a safety, or tubeless rim is. They also have no clue how to properally mount a tire with tubes. I often see cars with tubes, but no valve stem spacer washers. Ignorance is no excuse for not mounting tires safely.
-David
D. Sander

George Butz's concern in his last sentence is a MUCH greater concern to me than my tires, especially with 5-10 gallons of gasoline in a very exposed fuel tank.
John Quilter (TD8986)

Technically speaking, you can get away without tubes when using radial tires and "probably" won't suffer problems under normal conditions. However it is when the tire is low on pressure that you may run into serious trouble. In that situation, you really do want a safety lip holding the tire in place.

Around town probably won't matter, but if you're driving very hard or at high speeds then I certainly recommend using tubes. It isn't like the weight of an inner tube will hurt your lap times at Nurbergring.

If you're worried about finding tubes on the road, just throw one in the boot as a spare. Or, just have the tire repaired and put on without a tube to get it home.
Steve S

If the tube goes bad, what is holding up the tire on the rim in any event. With our without a tube the tire would be able to come off the rim. A 1800 lb car running on a tire with a flat tube inside is no different that one without a tube going bad. Most of my friends do not run tubes on their cars. Big PITA and the rims hold up fine. As for Wire Wheels, my 72 spoke chrome wires are designed to run tubeless.
Tom Maine

I have wire wheels so I have no choice. I will say that I've had blow-outs with tube tires but never with a tubeless. I also can say that I've had a tube tire blow out and promptly leave the rim. Once the tire is flat there's nothing to keep the tire on the rim if it doesn't have the so-called safety rim, tube or no tube. So what's the difference? If you are stating that you can put so much stress on the sidewall as to roll it off when fully inflated I will not believe you. At 20 psi there's 3.5 tons holding the tire seated, at 10 psi, of course, there's half that. I guess if you never notice the tire is very low and you make a violent turn and the tire has exceptional grip, racing tire grip, well, maybe it could push it off the rim and deflate it the rest of the way.

Perhaps that's one to submit to the Myth Busters!

Yes, a can of worms.
JE Carroll

A quick google search brought me to this from vintage tires.com

"Wire wheels, multi-piece wheels and single piece wheels designed for tube type applications CANNOT be used as tubeless fitments and the use of a tube (regardless of whether the tyre is “tube type” or “tubeless”) is ESSENTIAL FOR SAFETY. Always use tubes in such fitments..."

You CAN find tire dealers who will state it is ok to run tires tubeless on tube type rims, but chances are they are too young and inexperienced to know what they are talking about. You can play the odds, but it is risky. I HAVE seen the tire deflate quickly, you do not need to drive aggressively to have a sudden failure. One has to ask why people would take this risk.
-David
D. Sander

Interestingly, when I was a kid working in a Firestone tire shop we had a sealant that was to be used when installing tubeless tires on riveted wheels that originally had tubes. I cannot say for sure that the can was Firestone brand. I certainly sealed and mounted lots of tires on those '50s and '60s cars. We only used tubes if the rims were so rusty that they wouldn't seal or when the owners were distrustful of the then new-fangled tires.

I know that this is a can of worms but you are the only person I've ever read who will flatly state that he has seen the phenomena.

What you can find is more like this:

http://porsche356registry.org/resources/tech-articles/safety-and-driving/301-tires-with-tubes-original-yes-needed-no.html

I make no claim as to being expert but I haven't seen nor heard of inflated tires rolling off the rim. I do agree that they will come off if deflated as they will if they have tubes.

We gotta get the Myth Busters to try. They love any excuse to drive fast and take sharp turns!
JE Carroll

JE, I am with you, I have talked to dozens of our club members, who have been driving with and without tubes for more years than I can count and none of them have ever indicated seeing a tire come off the rim. The tube would not make a damn bit of difference . As for my wires, they are Jaguar style and were specifically designed for running tubeless. I have now had them on for over 10 years and no problems.In fact the recommendation by the manufacturer says do not run tubes in this wheel....
Tom Maine

Gents,
Have to agree with JC and Tom. Wish I had a dollar for every hour I sweated over a Gates Iron Tire Man. I remember being told that Chrysler Corp. used safety wheels perhaps since before WWII. I know they were much harder to breakdown on that manual machine. By the same token GM and Ford wheels were easy. All this experience was in the era of the change from tubes to tubeless. Lots of both were on the road and if you remember 15-20K miles was replacement time. People ran tires we would scrap today including blowout patches and boots to keep them going. We saw a good number of blowouts but I can not remember one that was not still on the rim unless it was driven several miles flat. Yes people driving on the shoulder with a flat was common. Just my two cents.

Best regards,

Jim Haskins 1953 TD (PS Bias ply with tubes since 198???)
J. M. Haskins

It's not an inflated tire that is at danger, it is an under-inflated one. If you've never seen a very soft tire pull away from the bead and let air out then you're missing out. It's quite exciting! Once it's completely flat, it won't make much difference if you have a tube in there or not.
Steve S

Gents,
If we were talking about some 17 year old running around in an old rice rocket I would agree. 99% of T series owners/drivers are so concerned/interested/anal about our cars I do not believe under inflation is a realistic concern.

Regards,

Jim Haskins 1953 TD
J. M. Haskins

In Europe it is illegal to run a J-type (non safety rim) without a tube. European governments get it.
I truly can't understand why so many people are against a simple and easy step to properly and safely install their tires.
-David
D. Sander

We need to seal the can of worms back up. We have as much chance of agreement as the politicians in Washington. There is likely some validity to both opinions. The board manager should force any questions about this to default to"search the archives" and ban further discussion. Off to the HSR race event in Sebring, 190 cars entered! George
George Butz

George, I agree with you, the last time this thread was out there LaVerne wrote note that said( wait for It)
Tom Maine

I purchased 5 new wire wheels form Hendrix a couple of years ago now and they came with tubeless tires. The tires were shaved true and balanced and so far have been trouble free.
Why would they mount tubeless tires if they were unsafe and liable to cause major problems?
I did not see any disclaimer on the labels that came with them. :)
Rod
R. D. Jones

The problem is not with the tires, the problem is with the rims. The rims are not tubless, resulting in the need for tubes.
-David
D. Sander

Kinda curious Rod, did Alan suggest no tubes? He balanced and tuned my new chrome wires and installed new radials and suggested tubes. After which he shaved and balanced the whole assembly. The car never handled so nice and zero vibration. PJ
Paul Jennings

Thanks to everyone who responded to my inquiry. There were many good points raised for consideration. With so many responding, and so much input, it was easy to figure out what to do. "Safety first"
T Scileppi

Rod, if they are new wire wheels then they are likely designed for tubeless tires. They do this by sealing the area around the spoke nipples with a strong sealant to prevent leaks, and by using a modern rim design to hold the bead of the tire. Not all new wire wheels come this way but many do.

You cannot run tubeless on older wire wheels unless you have them sealed in this way, and even then you don't have a safety lip so technically it isn't legal to do so but that doesn't seem to bother most people.

It is curious though, how some get so passionate about not running tubes. I have both tubed and tubeless tires on my various old cars but honestly I can't think of a single reason to not run tubes in older wheels that are designed for them. Is it a cost thing?
Steve S

What does putting a tube in accomplish? if you get a blown tire with or without a tube as soon as the rim hits the concrete, it will most likely run over whatever rubber is there and thus ruin tire and tube. as long as the tire holds air, what difference?
Tom Maine

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STEVE WINCZE

A good Charlie Brown scream!

JE Carroll

Thanks for the screeemm Steve, :)

I don't remember asking for tubeless tires from Hendrix on my new chromed wire wheels. I just ordered 5 wheels 60 spoke 15x4.5 with tires. I believe they came tubeless. As Steve S has said the rims are sealed to prevent leaks through the nipples. and after 3 years only had to top up 3 of the 5 tires.
I get the point about rims. Could it be Hendrix actually sell tubeless rims wheels? I guess I should go ask. Either way the car drives very well without shimmy and very sure footed on the road - Typical MG-TD.

Tire is http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/tires/kumho/product/submitProductSize.do?r=CODINT%7Cpc%7C80126&pc=33387
but I can't see where it says tubeless?


Rod


R. D. Jones

Rod,

You should be able to see/feel the depression that forms the retaining lip. Just imagine where the bead ends on the rim.

Jim
JE Carroll

I think I am going to start smoking cigarettes. Aparently there is not a shred of evidence that it is unhealthy, addictive or expensive, and I even know of people who have smoaked for years, and nothing has happened to them :-)
-David
D. Sander

Tom, a tube will make no difference that I can see once the tire is completely flat. Is is only during a slow leak that it matters.

Rod, I know that a few years ago when I inquired, both Dunlop and Dayton were selling both tubeless and non-tubeless wire wheel rims. 5.5" and wider were offered as tubeless, while 5" and under were not and required tubes. That may have changed though.

On the pro-tube side of the argument, I have seen tires fail without blowing out because the inner tube retained pressure as the tire came apart, allowing the car to safely pull off the road. I actually have a set of old bias-ply tires on a 1930's truck that are so old that the tread and sidewalls are coming off. You can see the still inflated tube through the cracks. But these aren't tires to drive on, they are just a fun thing to show people. ;)
Steve S

Here we go!
I had a Chrysler K car with wheels designed for tubeless tires, the new Bridgestone tires would deflate for no reason, lost the bead seal. ran flat the tire with no warning, & no punctures.
More than 3 times.
My Formula Ford race car with no tubeless safety wheels from a spitfire had only about 12- 16 PSI.
Back when they were called Gymkana's or Auto cross events, cars were not allowed to run if tire pressures were below... PSI ( 28 ?)
BUT I do have tubes in my Michelin tubeless tires!

( Road force balanced & no steering wheel shimmy/ shake / vibration at all at any speed)
Len Fanelli

Want to worry some more? Tube or no tube isn't really the issue. The issue is the tire verses the rim design.

http://www.sema.org/files/attachments/WTC-2011-05-Bias-vs-Radial-Tire-Wheel-Fitment.pdf

If a tube gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling, then by all means put one in.

The bottom line is I doubt you will find a radial tube type tire at your local supplier these days. So your stuck with a tubeless tire and a rim designed for tubed bias ply tire. Want safety? Buy a Volvo.
MG LaVerne

Thanks LaVerne, I can think of no other subject that gets more attention than tube vs. tubless on our cars wheels. In my 15 years on this board, I have seen this discussion numerous times. I had 9 of us beer drinkers together today and all except the TC guys say the same thing, whatever makes you happy and in the end that is all that matters. All of them said they had no issues running tubless on their cars. By the way, great reading on your post regarding the rims..
Tom Maine

Great article indeed, LaVerne. Makes one think of trying to get hold of bias ply tires, which is pretty difficult these days...
I'm the wrong guy to join the debate, I bought my (used) wire wheels with tires on them and have no clue what's inside. I suspect they have tubes, though, given they hold the air ok. And since they are over 20 years old, tubes are probably second priority for safety concerns.

On the old steel rims, when I dismounted the tires, I found tubes in 3 out of 4...

Cheers for now
Mike
Mike Fritsch

Let's see -- Does anybody have a lead to a source of reasonable quality 165-15 tubes for radial tires at a reasonable price? Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud,
I have always bought my tubes from Universal Tire. They are probably not the cheapest, but I have been more than satisfied with their service. I usuaully buy "heavy duty" tubes. They cost more, but it is cheap piece of mind. Tires and tubes are not an area I spend time trying to save a couple of bucks with.
I just put a new set of tires and tubes on a TC. The tubes were very thick. I joked that I could probably skip the tire and just drive on the tubes. The tires were Dunlops, but the tubes were Michelin. BTW, it is refreshing to finally see some sanity and reason in these threads...
-David
D. Sander

David is spot on with the tubes. Just about every tube made now is coming from China and they are crap. Spend the extra money regardless of what tire you choose and buy a Michelin tube. Just looked at Coker and they run about 28 bucks.
MG LaVerne

Chinese tubes! I have a hand truck with Chinese tubes in Chinese tires, from Harbor Freight. With 30 lbs of air in them, the air leaks through the tubes in about two weeks. The trash rubber tubes are actually porous and will not hold air. I'm going to put solid tires on it and trash what's on there, not advisable for our cars though! Grin. PJ
Paul Jennings

My experience has been that Michelin products are grossly overpriced for their actual quality. Can anyone tell me the difference between innertubes with specs of MR, Fr, and KR? Bud
Bud Krueger

My experience of Michelin is that their snow tires are junk, the rubber seams to be too hard to provide adequate traction on snow or ice, yet the tread is so aggressive that they are too noisy.
On the other hand, I have found that their other tires are of such high quality they last a really, really long time and provide a long and satisfactory service life. I have found that due to their great performance AND long service life, they are actually one of the cheaper tires on the market. I had a set of Bridgestones last 14,000 miles on my Saab. The replacements were Michelin, offered much better performance, and lasted 50,000 miles. They are the only summer tire I use, and I have been very happy with them. I have never had a problem with any of the many, many sets I have purchased.
In my opinion, the Michelin X radial is the best tire option for a TD or a TF.
F.W.I.W I have never had a set of Bridgestones I have been happy with. Tread separations, blow outs and very premature tread wear seams to be the story with Bridgestones. They have been the oem tire on many of my Subarus, and I have yet to have a set I've been happy with.
- David
D. Sander

Bud I'd say just see where they are manufactured. I've never in my life had a Michelin tube let me down. Not so with other brands.


David your really going to open up Pandora's box now :-)... I won't participate there but I do have my own opinions about a variaty of tire brands.
MG LaVerne

LaVerne, no worries on my tire opinions. I presented them as such- opinions. I'm sure other people have not had the same experience as I have had with my tires.
One thing I have learned, though, Is there is no money to be saved on tires and tubes. If I buy cheap products, they don't last long and have to be replaced a lot sooner.
You and I are both in agreement on the Michelin tubes, though. I have had very good service from them.
-David
D. Sander

Getting soft in my old age. Just placed an order with Universal Vintage Tire for 5 FR-15/16 Radial Tubes. $91.87 w/shipping. They're made in Korea. Fortunately, I know a garage that knows about installing tubes. I'll be keeping one of the tubes in the car as a backup and will have the other 4 installed in the relative new Kumhos. Now maybe Steve W will give me break and change his signature. Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud, Good work, keep us posted.
David
D. Sander

David,

I wholeheartedly agree on Michelin X. I even have 6 10:00X20 on my dump truck; split rims, so tubes of course.

Did you have a blowout on a tubeless Bridgestone?

Jim
JE Carroll

Who can you get to touch the split rims these days Jim?
MG LaVerne

"Did you have a blowout on a tubeless Bridgestone?"
Yup. On a Subaru. It was the oem tire that was on it when I bought the car. The tires were near the end of their life, so no warranty claim.
-David
D. Sander

Who can you get to touch the split rims these days Jim?

Well, me if I must. I did a lot of them as a kid. I'm not a kid anymore and I don't have a cage so I bring them to a local truck tire center. The problem is I can't find anyone who can balance them anymore. It's not really a problem on a truck with a top speed of 55.

When I still did them myself I wrapped them with a log chain and dropped a loader bucket over that. I figured that would contain everything should the ring fail. When I was a kid I always used a cage and never had a problem. I worked with a guy who never used a cage until the day he did. He must have been suspicious because he put it in the cage and used a clamp-on chuck. When it let go it got the attention of the whole shop!
JE Carroll

The shop I used to take my truck to had a circle from one through the ceiling about 25' up in the air. I always went outside when they started to air one up.
MG LaVerne

The reason why TC guys insist on tubes is that you can't run them tubeless. It's a 3" rim. On a TD wheel its an entirely different matter.

I've never had a problem running tubeless on TD wheels either. Did it on my Y-Type for years. But, I'm not assuming that because nothing bad has happened yet, that it never can. In all probability it will never be an issue for anyone driving a TD. Such a light car, really.

David, I've always been a huge Michelin fan as well, but in the past few years they have let me down. I actually had a new set taken off of my '67 BGT because they were so flimsy that didn't even feel safe or stable at speed. Always hated Bridgestones but I ended up with a set at that time and loved them! Seems like manufacturers change their designs every few years just when I'm starting to like what they offer.

I also agree that the Michelin X series has always been a great tire. Vredsteins seem to be equally good for TD and MGA.
Steve Simmons

Bud,
Back to your question, did you find out what MR, FR and KR refer to in tube speak?
-David
D. Sander

Don't forget the valve stem spacer buttons when you install the tubes.
-David
D. Sander

Never did find the MR/FR/KR info. These appear to be the FR variety. (Michelin are KR)
BTW, they sell rim hole bushings for $1/ea. Bud
Bud Krueger

The final solution (see page two):

http://www.fbccsc.org/newsletters/fbcc_newsletter_july13.pdf

No air, no tube.

Jud
J K Chapin

HHhhuumm,,,, With an extension welded onto those "J" type Steering Wheel Locks,, one could run the lock through the left side wheel ,,under the car,,, and then through the right side wheel !!!

SPW
STEVE WINCZE

This thread was discussed between 05/12/2013 and 12/12/2013

MG TD TF 1500 index

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