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MG TD TF 1500 - The end of ethanol gasoline?

In case anyone is interested:

Hawaii Bill to Eliminate Ethanol in Gasoline Signed Into Law
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By SEMA Washington, D.C., Staff

Governor David Ige signed into law legislation to repeal the requirement that gasoline offered for sale in Hawaii contain a percentage of ethanol.

Legislation to repeal the requirement that gasoline offered for sale in Hawaii contain a percentage of ethanol was signed into law by Governor David Ige. The new law becomes effective December 31, 2015. The law recognizes that the requirement of blending ethanol into gasoline does not produce any economic benefit for the state and the import of ethanol creates an economic burden for state residents. Ethanol increases water formation, which can then corrode metals and dissolve plastics and rubber, especially over a period of time when the vehicle is not used. Current high-performance specialty parts along with pre-model-year ’01 cars and parts may be most susceptible to corrosion. The lifespan of vehicles and equipment can be dramatically reduced with the wrong fuel, and owners could be confronted with breakdowns.

John Quilter (TD8986)

Certainly won't be the end of it on the mainland for sure. It's a mixed bag....trading food crops for fuel crops never really made any sense to me. In addition I believe it takes more energy to produce the ethanol that it delivers... again that makes no sense. Also not a good thing as we are aware of with older combustion engines and the systems.

On the flip side...it has kept us from fuel stations running dry from lack of product, which certainly would have happened over the last 10 or 15 years without the fuel added into the mix.

The bigger part of this story however is the following...


FACT: Using ethanol in place of gasoline helps to reduce carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions by an average of 34% compared to gasoline.
Because ethanol is made from renewable, plant-based feedstocks, the CO2 released during a vehicle's fuel combustion is "recycled" during the growth of ethanol feedstocks. According to the Department of Energy's GREET model, average corn ethanol reduces GHG emissions by 34% compared to gasoline - even when hypothetical land use emissions are considered. Without indirect emissions, average corn ethanol decreases GHG emissions by 44%.
FACT: In 2014, the use of ethanol in gasoline reduced CO2-equivalent greenhouse gas emissions from transportation by 39.6 million metric tons. That's equivalent to removing 8.4 million cars from the road for an entire year.
- See more at: http://www.ethanolrfa.org/pages/ethanol-facts-environment#sthash.4dhUAAMi.dpuf


I doubt you will see any populous states following their lead. With a different majority in congress I would imagine they would be threatened with loss of Federal highway funds if they did so. Money is on the other side of the table though now, so we will see.

The real question is who is driving this? If you follow the money you usually find out. With the ethanol it's pretty easy... corn! And the people who grow, process and get paid to do it. They lobby, they pay off and it pays off for them.

In the islands case, I would suspect strongly that the driving force behind this move comes from oil producing lobbyist.. drillers, suppliers,commodity brokers etc.
Automobiles produced in the last 20 years do just fine with ethanol fuels and thats where the bulk of the product goes. I suspect the majority of the public couldn't give a crap.... but they will....when the smog sets in and when the pump prices go up. Gasoline will be about 30 to 50 cents a gallon higher without the ethanol filler.

Just my thoughts.
MG LaVerne

Seems the Renewable Fuel Association forgot about the thousands of disadvantages, not to mention very suspect stats. Seems to me growing the corn uses huge amounts of water, pesticides, fertilizer, etc., not to mention the diesel fuel for tractors, combines, shipping, etc. I have studied this for many years and believe it is vastly energy negative, and has very minimal clean air benefits. Corn is a really lousy source, sugarcane (think Brazil) much better. Think about the gazillion cans of carb cleaner that have been used to clean thousands of gunked up carbs. How about all of the antique boats in NY that had fiberglass built in tanks ruined? Takes a bit of energy/electricity/chemicals to rebuild and restore. I'm all in favor of a clean environment and reducing oil/energy use, but think the whole ethanol thing is a gigantic scam IMHO. The federal ethanol mandate almost went away, however the corn states politicians prevailed. I love my car getting 10-15% less MPG with the ethanol gas..........George
George Butz

OK not really MG related but I suspect many will agree. When we burn cabonificerous fuels, including gasoline/petrol we liberate carbon dioxide. Plants take this in and via photosynthesis convert it back to oxygen. So why instead of continuously being encouraged (forced) to use less fossil fuel why isn't this balanced with a campaign to plant more trees? I wonder what effect it would have on environmental CO2 if everyone in the world planted one acorn.


Jan T
J Targosz

You also must factor in the decrease in gas mileage with ethanol blended fuel. Each year I would fill up my Chevy powered street rod here in Minnesota with 10% ethanol gas and drive to a car show in Iowa the corn state arriving with only fumes in the tank. Prior to driving back I would fill up with Iowa gas that does not have ethanol in it and after arriving home would drive most of the next week before filling up again. Truth is ethanol blended gas was forced on the public so a small group of people could become a lot richer at our expense and here in Minnesota the same people that had interest in ethanol production served in the state legislature. When asked about possible conflict of interest they didn't see any.
F. Driver

Who is going to drive the first battery electric TD or TF? :-)
Christopher Couper

Recovery hybrid. I just drove 140 miles in the mountains. I bet I could have recovered 30-40% of energy from braking and momentum with a good hybrid. I'd miss the beautiful TD exhaust tone and fun though. Big battery in the boot behind the seat and 1250 XPAG to recharge it. But not in my TD. Jud
J K Chapin

"I doubt you will see any populous states following their lead" Wisconsin has had non-ethanol gas available for years. Doubt I will see it in California.

Using food grains for fuel is a very stupid idea. Come up with a way of making alcohol from non-food products and it might make a bit more sense.

Bruce TD4139 Cunha

I believe most Conoco stations here in Oklahoma sell non ethanol gas. I'm fortunate enough to have one a mile from the house which sells nothing but non Ethanol. It's all I use in the TF and my lawn equipment. The price here is about 25 cents a gallon over the corn gas, but if all the corn gas were banned, I believe that price would stabilize and come down a bit. Just dreaming! PJ
Paul S Jennings

Can't we find a more biased website than that, LaVerne?
Gene Gillam

We are mandated ethanol in my area by the EPA since we have air pollution in excess of standards. The state has no say. You can't buy ethanol free gas for several counties around, except at marinas and airport using airport transfers tonbridges. I don't see that changing any time soon. Obviously, Texas is an oil producing and not a corn producing state.
David Littlefield

Gents,
I have had my say about ethanol several time on this BBS so I will not repeat myself even if it is near the top of my list of pet peeves. Also on my list of pet peeves is the quoting of percents in comparison to an unstated quantity. MG, is it 43% less than a bushel or 43% less than a thimble? Inquiring minds want to know. Just venting a little. Nothing personal.

Best regards,

Jim Haskins 1953 TD
J. M. Haskins

Ya it was a heavy biased site but the points are some what valid. It's more about money driving the direction in my mind.
MG LaVerne

Let me say first that I am no fan of ethanol fuel. That being said, I have a hard time understanding how a ten percent ethanol blended fuel can provide 10-15% less mpg than nonethanol fuel does. The stuff still burns after all. I'm not a chemical engineer or anything close, but unless it actually causes a detrimental effect to the real gas mpg I can't see how the fuel economy can fall off even more than the percent off ethanol in the mix. In fairness, I will say that I have never actually bothered comparing the fuel economy in any of my gas vehicles when using either E10 or non-ethanol gas.

Just me mumbling out loud,

Kirk
Kirk Trigg

The 72 MGB I restored, rebuilt engine, OD transmission and all, properly tuned, would get 32 MPG on non Ethanol fuel, it would drop to 27/28 MPG on 10% Ethanol.
Paul S Jennings

Not a surprise as the energy yield from ethanol is considerably lower than from branched alkanes or aromatics (hydrocarbons). A modern vehicle with all its electronic wizardry might show rather less difference.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Kirk, I have a degree in ChemE (long, long ago) but I don't know the answer to your question. I suspect that the reduced mileage may be the result of the alcohol altering the gasoline. Remember, you're not burning 9 gallons of gasoline and then one gallon of ethanol but you are burning ten gallons of whatever is the result of combining one gallon of ethanol with nine gallons of gas. If the ethanol modifies the structure of the gas one could get the observed effect, i.e., a liquid with a different chemistry that produces 10% less energy than the sum of its parts. Just musing. Jud
J K Chapin

I think ethanol is here for the long stay because of so many of our elected official have large investments in it.

Bill
TD24570
Bill Brown

Well it could have just been an economic stimulus device put out by the government back when.

I must have spent several hundred dollars replacing rubber hoses and carb parts. Probably will need to spend more as other stuff goes south, thanks to E10 and the removal of the zinc.

Shame they do not have a deducting on taxes to compensate us for the "Environmental Improvements" to our Cars.

Just saying.
Rod


R. D. Jones

Then why do you have those elected officials?
LD Palmer

Kirk
i can tell you i checked our BMW (which was new at the time) years ago on trips to NC to see our daughter at school. this was at the beginning of using ethanol in gas. i always checked my fuel mileage on every trip down and back. always do that, even today. on average over a number of trips it was pretty evident that my mpg's dropped 10% when using the ethanol blend.
i used to joke with a buddy of mine, a farmer, that the 10% stood for mpg lost and not how much ethanol went in the mix. of course corn at the time was pushing over 7 bucks a bushel so he just smiled. as i understand it the corn being used is feed corn for animals only. Not a direct food source. of course corn is back down about 3 bucks a bushel now so obviously production has outpaced the demand... even with the fuel blend.... probably adding from south america.
my point to him was that we were not saving fuel consumption in this country by the blend. if we have to use 10% more fuel... still the same amount of oil being refined.
it is all about the money. someone made some big bucks on that deal and it sounded good politically to say we were cutting our dependency on foreign oil.
i can't speak on the environmental impact and clean air... but i have my doubts there is much if any advantage.
TLW Wright

I have a flex fuel vehicle using e85, I get about 30percent less mpg. Imho ethanol is one of the biggest cons ever put upon the American public. Just device to make money for those poor American farmers and big business. Sort
ry just venting
TRM Maine

You get less MPG because ethanol is 30 parts carbon and hydrogen, which burns to give energy, and 16 parts oxygen by weight which doesn't burn but just goes through for the ride.
Ron Coates

I think Brazil is sugar beets not sugar cane...but I could be mistaken. Like any new technology it may take time to develop. Luckily Henry ford did not cave to the people who thought early car technology would go nowhere. There are lots of interesting things out there..algae, etc, you gotta develop the technology from somewhere...
Regards, tom
tm peterson

It is kind of a curious question. I would like to know if as Jud says, the MPG of the E10 gas is truly less than the sum of its parts. I don't have the expertise in this area to come up with the answer. I suppose that the bottom line is that for the time being at least, it's a moot point because we are stuck with E10 in most of the USA for the foreseeable future.

Kirk
Kirk Trigg

This thread was discussed between 11/07/2015 and 14/07/2015

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