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MG TD TF 1500 - TF Water Leak...Water Pump Removal

My 1955 TF1500 just developed a significant leak. The
exact location is dificult to determine, but it appears
to be at the base of the water pump near pump/engine
joint. Perhaps it is a crack in the pump body or perhaps
a failed gasket. In either case it looks like I will
need to remove the pump. I am new to the MGs, but
correct me if I am wrong. Must I remove the radiator to
do this? The clearances are quite close, and I am
concerned with damaging the radiation with the fan or
other miscellaneous components. If so the radiator seems
to be attached to just about everything up front. What
else am I going to be removing? Also, how much of the
hardware is Whitworth? It seems I am making this more
complicated than it should be, but perhaps there is a
proven sequence for this repair.

While I am typing I would also like to ask if this is
a common problem. There is a stabilizer link assembly
that looks like it keeps the engine from rocking. It is
attached very near to the base of the water pump if not
right on it. It seems this could have induced some
stress in the area and opened up a link. If this is the
case then I would guess that others have seen this too.

Any help is, as always, greatly appreciated. Thanks
in advance.

-Stephen
Stephen Milton

Stephen,
From what I have seen & read...you must remove the fan blades ...but not the radiator.
Going to be putting a new pump in my 1500 ...so I check back to see how you are doing....and share what I learn if I beat you to it.
Do you have aservice manual?
If not think there are a few on ebay right now or you can get from Moss or Abingdon.
Cheers,
David 55 TF 1500
David Sheward

David-
Thanks for the info. I will take a look at it next chance. As for the service manual, just ordered it from Moss along with a couple of water pump gaskets. Didn't even think of eBay. Figure I will have to remove the pump so I will at least need the gasket.
-Stephen
Stephen Milton

Stephen - David Sherwood is correct, remove the fan blades first and then attack the rest of the pump nuts and bolts. If I remember correctly, there are 2 bolts on the right side (driver's side) of the pump and 2 studs on the left side. All the nuts and bolts have Whitworth heads on them unless someone has replaced them with a straight metric bolts. The actual threads are 8 X 1mm, but the originals had Whitworth heads (Nuffield's Mad Metric). You may find that the stabilizer link has to be removed from the bracket that fits to the lower bolts on the water pump so that you can get the lower left nut on the water pump. It may seem impossible, but it can be done without removing the radiator, although you may wind up with some scraped knuckles in the process. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Stephen,
Forgot to mention ...been a couple of pumps on ebay as of late...you might want to check there.
Also if you attempt before you get your "book"....check out the archives on this site for some advise.
your want to make sure you luberacate and turn by hand a bit before you "fire her up"...as I recall from what I have read. Hoping to install my new one this weekend....dropping my rear end today...but will let you know what I get into when do the pump! My pump is still ok ....but replacing with a "bruno" model I am told should be the last one I ever have to put on. Got mine from Mike Goodman..let me know if you want to try and see if he can locate another for you....cost a bit more that "stock"....but I hear this is the best out there.....I like my knuckles...so going for it!
Cheers,
David 55 TF 1500
David Sheward

David - Please excuse my misspelling of your name, rather dumb on my part as all I had to do was scroll up to get it correct. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Finally, after much wrestling and borrowing of tools, I removed the water pump from the TF. I did need to remove the radiator to do it, but after finding all the right bolts the whole nose comes off as a unit. For those out there that say it can be done without removing the radiator then more power to you. One of the first things it says in my recently purchased shop manual is to remove the radiator before one removes the water pump. Go figure.

OK the pump is off, but I do no see a clear candidate for the leak. My guess is that it was coming from the lower bolt as it penetrates the block and enters the water passage. Water could find its way through the threads and past the gasket. I didn't find the bolt loose, but it is a possibility. Moss forgot to send the water pump gaskets I ordered (they have since sent it with many apologies.) I will replace the pump sans radiator, loop the hoses around, fill things up and see if I have a drip. I will also start the engine in this configuration as it will take a few minutes for the water to heat up without the radiator and this should give me enough time to be certain I have corrected the leak. Only then will the nose+radiator go back on.

So any suggestions for sealers on the bolts or gasket, or do you think just a new gasket and snugging things back down will do the trick?

Regards, Stephen
"bonding" with my TF
Stephen Milton

Yes you can change the pump without removing the rad. Some years ago upon first driving a just-restored TF, the new pump started squealing. Seems an internal spacer was missing. As this car was just assembled, it was possible, but I think you were better off with rusty bolts to pull the rad. Look carefully at the bottom of the pump for the "weep hole". This is there to allow external leakage in the event of seal failure to notify the driver before the bearings fail. Look for rusty or green stain comming out of this hole, as well as around the head gasket, bolts, etc. Also, look carefully at the water outlet bolted to the head, just above the pump- the head to outlet joint, and the thermostat elbow to outlet joint, as well as the outlet (aluminum- these corrode and get pin-hole leaks). Coolant leaks are tricky to find sometimes, and with the rad out, all is easy to see. Good luck!
George Butz

Stephen:

If I may add my two cents.....

Having changed water pumps on many different vehicles over the years, I would suggest using Permetex #2 (non-hardening) on the sealing surfaces. You don't need very much, just a thin layer on both surfaces with the gasket layered in between. I've never had a leak after doing that. It may not be absolutely necessary, but it will give you piece of mind that the leak will not come from that area again.

As far as the threads....generally they should not leak but I too suspected that after 40 years, and untold water pump removals, the threads may have been streched allowing for some leakage. What I have used is teflon tape. The same stuff you use on household plumbing and pipes. It comes in a small roll, and is available at most home improvement stores. Just dole some out, tear off a piece, and wrap it on the bolt in the same direction as the thread rotation. Again, you don't need much, just enough to cover the threads about twice. Then rotate the bolt with one hand while pressing down on the thread/tape. When done, you will still see the threads very clearly. Then install the bolts. You can also use the tape on the studs. This should give you a nice snug fit and in the future, facilitate the removal of the nuts and bolts should that be necessary. Actually, the stuff works well any place you may have a small leak, except for the exhaust system. It's pretty durable and very easy to work with.

Also, if you have any questions on how to install a garbage disposal, or change the timer on a washing machine....I can help you with that too !!

Good Luck....

Jim
Jim Rice

Thanks Jim. I have the Permatex #2 and teflon tape from past jobs and thought about using them. I just wanted to be certain no one had any bad experiences with them peculiar to the MG and the water system. I too think these will do the trick.

George had some interesting points, and I was wondering just what the purpose was for the hole in the bottom of the water pump. It was full of grease and there was no discoloration there. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't the leak, but it really doesn't look to be. Also, when I grabbed hold of the fan before removing the pump and wiggled it everything seemed firm so I don't really suspect the bearings.

I will just replace the pump with a new gasket and some sealer as Jim described and check the system thoroughly for leaks before replacing the radiator+nose. Thanks for all your help.

As for changing the timer on the washing machine, who needs to time it. It always takes too long to do laundry, particularly when you have a car out in the garage just crying out your name.

-Stephen
Stephen Milton

<<<snip>>>
I was wondering just what the purpose was for the hole in the bottom of the water
pump.
<<<snip>>>
The original pump design did not use sealed bearings. The weep hole is to allow water out that would otherwise contaminate the bearing and grease. Look at the shop manual illustration p. D.3. The weep hole is to the right of the spindle circlip # 11.

<<<snip>>>
It was full of grease and there was no discoloration there
<<<snip>>>
To much use of the grease gun!
Blake J.

It has been awhile since I wrote. I just got back from a trip to Europe.

It was the water pump seal that was the problem. I removed the pump, but only after removing the radiator. This turned out to not be such a difficult thing afterall and was well worth it to simplify the pump removal. I capped off the pump outlet. Turned the pump with the fan side facing down and filled it with water. After a few seconds there was water leaking through the seal. I really am suprized I could not see this while it was in place. Bottom line is the pump was bad. I will send it out for repair, but I also purchased another. It should be in the office with the other UPS deliveries that arrived while I was away. I will pick it up today and reassemble the whole deal. Hopefully my wife and I will be back on the road in a day.

-Stephen (bonding with my MG)

P.S. I saw no T's while in Europe, but did see a parade of restored FIAT 500s. And they call the Ts midgets. Go figure.
Stephen Milton

To remove the water pump, remove the fan blades and then the pulley. With the pulley off you can get to the 4 holding bolts or studs. These are metric threads in spite of having Whitworth heads.

Leaks might be the gasket or it maybe the graphite seal. It is possible to fit new bearings and seal but the cost is high. A new pump with sealed bearings costs $75 US in the UK. Mail extra. It is far easier to fit a new pump. Bewire the satbilizer stay. The bracked which fir=ts arounfd the pump housin g will probab;ly be woirn and needs replacing. Those from Moss, in my expreince need fetling to fit. N.B. the link must be properly adjusted when refitted otherwise strain is place upon engine mountings.

Beware when refitting the pulley - it is very easy to force the woodruff key upwards and stress the pulley casting which, in time will fracture. This is more easily done with the radiator off. It cannot be done off the car because you cannot get to the two lwoer holding bolts or studs.


N.B clean out the threads in the block before refitting.

You mauy end up with damaged kniuckles. The alternative is to buy a Corvette
Bob Marshall

This thread was discussed between 09/08/2001 and 02/09/2001

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