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MG TD TF 1500 - TD headlights---painted or chromed

I just had my car at a local car show for british cars and one of the judges gave me a hard time about the fact that my headlight buckets are painted body color. My car is a very early 1950 TD #0533. It is my understanding that some of the early cars also had the buckets painted. I can trace the car's owners back to the 1960's and the lights have been painted since at least that time. The various books/references that I have are a bit vague about when the transition occurs or if there even was a transition, since they apparently could come either way. While I realize this isn't an earth shattering question, the judge did piss me off a bit because he was so rigid and strident in his answer. I am not planning on changing what they are, but I am intersted in what everyone else out there also has to say. As an aside, my car also has the solid wheels, which are also original, yet the references say that these should also not be on the car.
Cheers, Rob
Rob Silverman

Rob,
I think you were "robbed",sorry.
I'm not sure of the buckets but I know the brackets were body color. Also I believe that TD's did not come from the factory with anything other than steel wheels. Wire wheels were on TCs and optional on TFs. I have seen many TD's with chrome headlamp brackets, headlamps and wire wheels, although they look very nice and are very appealing to judges, they are not original.
Dan Hanson

Rob - I too, think that you were robbed. The chrome "King of the Road" head light buckets came on some of the cars but not all and the very early TDs did, in fact have solid "artillary style" wheels. I am not sure just when the wheels were changed to the ventilated wheels, but one of our members has them on his car, which is car # 5XX. If you have not already done so, check out Chris Couper's web site, the original MGTD Miget http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgtd/
There is a lot of originality information in it.
Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Hello Rob,

I always understood, that both chrome headlamps as well as painted ones were possible, depending on the
series of cars in production.
Mine is a feb.1952 one and has painted lamp-buckets and I believe always had.

If you look at the car that was tested in the Autocar of May 1953 (licensnr HMO 233), it also has painted buckets. Also the car in featured in the operation manual has them painted.
FMO 265, the car tested in the Autocar of January 1950
and being one of the first, has chrome ones (and closed pressed steel wheels)

I believe it all depended on price and whether it was available.

MGreetings

Erik
erik van hardeveld

Rob, my 1950 TD is number 741 with solid wheels (small slits, no holes) has chromed headlight buckets. The car has a n manfacture date of February 16, 1950.
Michael

Rob,

Just to add my 2 cents worth. Generally speaking (note the use of "generally"), I believe that early TDs (of which 1950 is included) were shipped with chrome buckets, a carry-over from the TC production. At some point the transition to buckets paitned body color began (unclear, but likely mid-1951). Of course, with the production techniques of the time, whatever was in the box at the time was what was put on. Since painted buckets were not used until a little later in the production life (as a reaction, I believe to the shortage of chrome due to the Korean war), I would believe that yours was originally shipped with chrome (just an assumption, as all period photos of TDs I have seen from that era are chrome). Tough to prove one way or the other. As an aside, my TD (early '51) has chrome buckets. I have had several "experts" tell me at car shows that my car is wrong, and that they should be painted as no TDs were shipped with chrome buckets (until I show them period photos with chrome buckets). One of the reasons I don't like that sort of judging - too many experts.

Regarding the wheels, according to Clausegers "The Orginal MG T Series", TDs were shipped with solid wheels until January 1950 with chassis 0501 (he states "supposedly". Given the chassis umber of your car, and the production techniques, I would believe the solid wheels are appropriate.

Just my 2 cents.

Larry Thompson
Larry Thompson

Hi Rob, Larry got it right, the reason for the painted headlights was due to the lack of chrome during the Korean war.

I am uncertain of the date of the change off the top of my head, but both are original of course.

I have one of the last cars built and I have painted headlights which should probably be chrome. The reason being that one of the headlights has extensive damage that has been repaired and some filler has been used. Hence no chrome. So I get it from smart ar*e judges too.

Your solid wheels should be correct as far as I know.

Cheers,

Paul.
Paulo van Gool

The New England MG T Register publication on the T-Series did list a change over number (I think TD-0501) for the drilled wheels, but it was noted that the factory used whatever was available at the time. So, even if the cut off was TD-0500, if a set of the undrilled wheels was found, then they would have been used. Same deal goes for headlamps. (I don't know what was originally on mine as when I first bought it , it didn't have the originals. I bought a set from the U.K. which by luck, happen to be painted the same colour as the car (black) and this may be right for my car (Oct 51).FWIW
Bob Simpson

I bought a '50 RHD TD #1850 in 1977 that had all 5 of the rims as solid. As has always been said, there was no constant information on exactly what was done when except for certain well known things like 8" clutch.
Ernie

Geez: Aren't you and all the judges reading these web pages?

http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgtd

Chris
Chris Couper

I am sure Clausager is wrong about solid wheels stopping at 501. My TD has chassi number 1034, March 1950, and has solid wheels. In some very old issue of Safety Fast I saw a TD with number around 1200+ and it also had solid wheels.

My TD happens to have chromed headligh buckets. The brackets are painted, and the bolt connecting them to the radiatior are chromed. While I bought the car "only" in 1965, I am dead certain all this original for some reasons too long to explain.

Denis
Denis L. Baggi

Denis: Brian Smith has you beat at car #2154

See:
http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_production_exceptions.htm

You are correct about the bracket and bolt as well as the headlamp bucket for your year car.

Chris
Chris Couper

Thanks fellows for all your comments. It just goes to show why I hate car show judging. Some of the judges have a clue and others look at just the "prettiest" and not one that is correct. Next time, I'll just drive my car, (1700 miles this season) and not go to beauty pagents.
Rob
Rob Silverman

Clausager also says that there were no TDs with black interiors. Yet my car has a black interior and it looks original in every way. The dash is even covered in Rexine. Several other respected restorers have told me that there were original TDs with black interiors. So Clausager, although a wonderful resource, must not have every detail perfect.
Ira Spector

Ira is dead on! Isn't this half the fun of owning an MG? I am the 3rd owner of our TF. My PO swears that my interior was always black. As "deep" as I have been into this car now, (stripped to bare metal) I am inclined to belive him! Most curious is the paint on my dash...(it too was stripped to bare metal this go-around)...I found eveadence of black paint there.."on top" of red paint and the black primer that was the first layers. I think it is very possible that my TF was a factory "re-paint" before she shipped from the UK. I think it is very possible that the factory would have painted a TF any colour just to get another sale as nobody wanted these cars!
As for the "experts" at car shows....My "first" show I was told the judging got down to our TF and a 1939 Mercedes...the "Benz" won....(power windows, auto trans, cd player, mag wheels w/white letter tires (not "tyres") and a chevy 4 cyc motor) give me a break! My uncle had actually owned the car previous to this....it was a 1995 Gazelle replacar! Two years ago at a British show I was told there was quite a debate going on over a "sucide/broddie" knob on my TF by a group of "experts" (we were out looking at other cars so we missed the debate)... One "expert" swore that this was a very rare "dealer option" worth several hundred dollars and he had not seen one for years. The guy in the TD next to me and I had a great laugh over this one when I popped the top off of it to revell the other "rare" cut outs I had printed on my PC the night before and stored in the knob I bought at Quality Farm & Fleet! (The one that was showing was a jpeg of the "MG Girl" with a "Saftey Fast" logo inserted up in the cornor!) I also have some "rare" OSH / Lucas and other inserts I would be happy to print for anybody that would care to send me several "hundred dollars"!
Cheers to all ...have fun with these "little debates" ...I know I do!
David #A1 55 TF 1500
David Sheward

Ira. There are always exceptions. TD's were never "advertised" with black interiors. Clausager is only going on publications as there are no records for the TD as there are for the later cars to look through.

CKD cars came from the factory without being finished and may have had the option of getting black interior too. The interior would have to be a special order as was the car. Entirely possible.

Anybody that has CKD car could say just about anything in terms of finish. Trouble is with TD's there is no way that I know of to tell that you have one unless you have the original dash sticker:
http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgtd/Pictures/Story/nuffield_exports.jpg

Chris

PS: If I ever get to Penn I would love to see your black Rexine interior.
Chris Couper

This topic of exceptions to the recognized norm is interesting. What others are out there? My personal area of interest is the firewall colour. Everything that I have ever read says it should be body colour. My car TD26372 has been in my family since 1962. Its firewall is a kind of gray with a slight green tinge...similar to what I picture described for the valve cover colour. There is no trace of read anywhere except for some overspray from exterior body repaints. I can't see any reason why it would have been stripped and repainted in the first 9 years. Any one out there have a similar firewall? I have been thinking of painting it red not because it is "correct"..but because I think red would look better.
Tim Mayor

Tim: Earlier TC's were painted a grayish green. Not sure why your late TD would be that way though.

Have you ever stripped it or taken off a part that was never replaced before? Check under the oil line coupling between the engine and the oil pressure gauge for example. That part is rarely removed except during a restoration.

Chris

Chris Couper

This thread was discussed between 19/08/2002 and 28/08/2002

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