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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Synthetic v Mineral Oil

I have always been against expensive oils designed to "protect classic engines". I buy 20w/50 from a local motor factor for £12 for 4.5 litres and change it three times per year. I also replace the filter, now £4 as I have a spin off conversion. Unfortunately 4.5 litres does not fill the sump up to the maximum so I have to buy two containers of oil and use one as a top up. Synthetic oil can be purchased in smaller quantities. What is the issue with using synthetic or semi synthetic oil in an EXPAG.

Jan T
J Targosz

I have never been able to find a synthetic oil is the kind of weight required by my TD engine. Once I tried 10W30, but found that the tolerances in the XPAG engine were not sufficient to keep from leaking and providing enough oil pressure.
Lew Palmer

This is an excellent article regarding oil type and viscosity in MG engines.

https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/of104.htm

Jim
James Neel

Hi Jim,

I have just read the excellent article you recommended. Looks as though my long held suspicion that oil is oil and only the price varies is correct. Also in temperate climates it is the higher viscosity figure that is important and for an EXPAG this should be 50.

Jan
J Targosz

While Barney’s article is very good, it was written 15 years ago and oil has gone ahead a lot since then.

You need to do more research on this as the oil needs ZDDP added or as part of the oil.

There are several posts on the other forum there a lot more up to date, but I would be listening to guys like Tom Lange who rebuilds these engines.

My 2c worth.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

And the ZDDP myth is perpetuated once again. Regards, Tom
tm peterson

Is ZDDP a myth?
P G Gilvarry

There are very few, who have put massive amounts of money into figuring these things out. One of them is the cam manufacturing industry. Listen to them, and what they say about oil requirements for our engines. Otherwise all you have is a handful of home mechanics with very limited, loosely controlled observations, and a few "internet experts" who all disagree with each other. I have my preferences, but they're just based on what I've read and experienced personally. No way any of us can say how a particular oil will perform in general from simply using it on our road car. Do your research, consider the sources carefully, and make the call based on what you're comfortable with.

The main reason why I don't use synthetics in XPAG engines is that they dob't run as efficiently and cleanly as new engines. So event though the synthetic oil is capable of running longer between changes, you still need to change it as often as standard oil to get the contaminants out. Considering the high price tag on synthetic oil, it seems like a huge waste of money to run it. But that's just my own feelings on the subject.
Steve Simmons

I wonder how many miles one of our cars does each year. Is it worth paying a premium for specialist oils with sophisticated additives when the mileage most T Series will cover in a year will be modest and those covered will be "easy" on the engine. Considering condensation and degragation of additives with a static engine I think it best to buy cheap and replace frequently. Just out of interest I will start a new thread and ask for approximate annual mileages so we can work out a reliable average.
J Targosz

I am not suggesting you add ZDDP, just buy an oil with it included.

Not expensive.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

From another forum, approved by people who have done this before.

https://www.mgexp.com/forum/t-series-and-prewar-forum.46/lubricants.3702571/#msg-3702571

Peter
P G Gilvarry

tm peterson can you provide some background on your comment, "And the ZDDP myth is perpetuated once again."

Thanks

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

If you Google "zddp myth" you will find lots of opinions on the matter, but some of them do seem to carry some weight, e.g. from GM and Duckhams. Its not that zddp is a bad thing - it very definitely isn't, unless you add too much of it (more than 0.14% or 1400ppm 'ish). Many oils with considerably lower levels of zddp than this still have to meet stringent testing (including flat tappets) to comply with relevant specs, which they do, because they have carefully balanced formulae that provide the necessary properties. The one thing it seems not to do, to me anyway, is to go adding anything, especially zddp, to a good quality oil that already has the required properties, because you may well make it worse.
Dave H
Dave Hill

As one of this BBS's inexperts (note the spelling) on oil (and everything else) but often trying to stretch the range of use and beliefs and drag some into the 20th century (21st is too far) Steve may be surprised to see I agree with what he's put here.

I very much favour thoroughness of oil changes more so even than higher frequency. A good point is made about changing the filter each time for the amount of oil it holds. The more existing oil that is left in at changes the slightly more diluted (sorry I'm not technical so can't think of a more accurate or better word to use) the new fresh oil will be. Doing a quick cold oil change frequently as many of the US "shops" seem to do might not be as good as it seems and I doubt cost effective in the long run.

Think of dry fill capacities from factory specs and how much new fresh oil you usually can get in at a change and the difference is just about how much old oil has been left in. Of course unless you're rebuilding the box you're never going to get every last drop of oil out the box.

Chris emptied a B box left it overnight then up-ended it and left it but still there was oil residue, forget how much.

So I like to get the oil hot and leave to drain for as long as possible before refilling with fresh new oil but all within reason.

Yes basically to an extent all oils are the same but not exactly and yes the better oils proportionately have higher retail price, value, marketing with lower volume sales but we all know the results of buying cheap by the variable parts quality for our cars.

Better oils will be better (regardless of their retail price, low or high) and offer greater levels of protection and margins in use and longevity of useful life. How much greater and if it's worth it compared to cost is another matter and matters of need, choice and belief.

As the variables of the actual vehicle, engine use, service and maintenance, driver and driving style, their pockets and beliefs, are too wide to pin down to just one product or type for all.

Also bear in mind the numbers are for a band of range and what is tested and measured at one point of time will be different with x-use/mileage/conditions. Just because they have the same number and letters on the can does not mean they are exactly the same or equal.

I personally like to use oils, where I can and they're good enough, from the UK blenders, same as I expect US owners prefer US oils.

As I often put I am not an expert in anything, I have no technical knowledge or experience, am non-mechanical in fact mechanically inept, and unlike many on these forums I do not enjoy working on or messing with cars. Which is why I prefer the minimum maintenance possible with widest margins of protection so that when the mood takes I can drive in a spirited way. The various wider levels of protections on items will also help reinforce the others on other items so that when things go wrong, as they do on our cars, hopefully the greater protection means less effects and damage (and sometimes I believe it has for me in my experience over very many miles, breakdowns, roadside repairs, getting the car home - all with various classics used as dailies, longer commutes, holidays and tours).

But as always each to their own. :)




Nigel Atkins

"From another forum, approved by people who have done this before." Am I the only one confused by this? There isn't anywhere on the web with more TD experience than this site. The archives are packed with info on this subject. Half of the members of the other site (including myself) are members here also!

Also confused why Nigel feels I'll be surprised that he agreed with me?

Maybe I need to start drinking coffee in the morning to jump start my brain. It has been known to start slowly. I should probably check the battery connections.
Steve Simmons

Steve, I know many people are in the othe forum, many are not.

The amount of information is endless, but some of it is not worth the words written, there are folks, like yourself, who have experience.

When I had my TD, and when I first got my TF, Castro’s GTX was a commonly used oil. I am led, easily, unfortunately to believe today’s formulation are not the same as those of 20 years ago.

Tom and Laverne have probably changed more oil than a lot of folk, I sought their counsel after doing my research, they validated my findings, hence I took that route.

Now, I have experience, but I am not going to tell you what beer to drink, you can make that choice, nor am I going to tell you what oil to use, but, I do know what I’m using.

My 2c worth.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Steve,
check battery connections, battery posts, then battery.

I'm pulling your leg with that, although if you're putting coffee in ...

I thought you might be surprised as (but perhaps you didn't know) I'm a strong advocate of proper full synthetic oils and the ones marketed as such. I also use GL5 in my T9 gearbox and not that bothered by the ZDDPs in the oil (but the oil I used also has more than sufficient to help justify the higher retail price so I'm not filtering them out with my stockings).

It's just about suggesting a possible alternative, those not interested know to pass on by now.

All the posters on the BBS forums will probably be using an oil that will do the job and not have engines full of ancient depleted (might be wrong technical word) oil but perhaps the oil could be improved on or change of regime.

Possibly not quite so many will be as concerned about or as regular with their gearbox oil or changes, and fewer still for rear axle oil or changes, "there was oil in there when I bought the car 20 years ago and the level's hardly dropped", "it was filled for life at the factory". :)

Car oils are a discussion or debate, argument at worse, but they're not a very serious or important matter, plenty of room for a bit of good humour.
Nigel Atkins

Peter,
as long as you're not referring to that beer that's rice and floor sweepings, over here we are so fortunate as we have beers and lagers, keg/fizz/"craft", for those that like that sort of thing, and good luck to them they're not wrong, but we also have ales, proper fully fermented natural ales. :)

Some ales are basically the same as when your cars were new and others with ideas and ingredients from all over the world, some drinkers like the traditional, brown safe ales and some drinkers like the newer (mid-1980s on) ales, like wot i do. :)

Cheers to whatever you're drinking, even coffee.

Nigel Atkins

Found it, I left the battery cut-off switch off this morning. All cylinders seem to be firing again, although I could use a new set of plugs and a points adjustment. (Truth be told I don't drink coffee!)

Peter I totally agree, today's oils are not the same. Like 99% of MG owners I used to use nothing but GTX 20W-50. But today I only use it in one car (a 1925). I run synthetic in another and dino oil in several more.

In XPAGs I usually run 20W-50 dino. One thing I watch for is how well the viscosity modifiers do their thing. Because I drive in wildly varying conditions, I look for the difference in pressure between brands, not only from cold to hot but from ambient temperature changes. I once drove through the western states starting in 116F weather and ending up in freezing weather. The difference in oil pressure was notable. In my opinion, modern cars regulate their engine temperature better than our old ones do, so how an oil holds its viscosity is important to me.
Steve Simmons

Someone who doesn't drink coffee and is a USA non-coffee drinker, you're a Saint in my book.

But holding on to CB points when good fully electronic dissys are available relegates you to a minor Saint. :)

I too am all about the additive packages and how they perform and last but to be honest I don't really check.

Modern cars seem to regulate their temperatures really well in the conditions over here, I can't remember the last time I heard the cooling fan run on my wife's modern car. The needle on the temp gauge on mine is up 'n' down like a fiddler's elbow (or the other saying for those that know it). :)
Nigel Atkins

You wouldn't like my cars very much then. Points distributors, generators, SU points fuel pumps, mechanical control boxes, etc. :)

But yeah, we can agree on the coffee thing. I've tried coffee twice in my lifetime, once by accident. Hated it both times. Everyone says its an acquired taste. I reply why should I endeavor to acquire a taste for something I didn't like the first time?
Steve Simmons

Steve,
you can grow to like things and some things you don't like at one part of your life you go on to like at another part and visa versa, all for many various reasons.

But coffee - when I was a lad a Scandinavian chap I knew offered me coffee, it was black as tar and I think brewing constantly, being used to mugs of tea I was initially surprised at the small sample looking sized cup I was offered it in. Then I started to drink it and realised it needed serving in much smaller cups, thimble sized measures. It gave me stomach ache later.

Some years later, mid-80s, I was told by an older colleague that used to drink Italian coffee in the '60s that I must try some from a new cafe that had just opened. I did it wasn't as bad as the previous lot but still nasty. I'm not even keen on instant coffee.

SU points fuel pumps - no, no, hammers kept in cabin for hitting, get a reliable electronic Hardi, fit 'n' forget.

As for mechanical control box, from UK specialist in dynamos - http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.com/electronic-regulators.php

No don't thank me. :)
Nigel Atkins

Nigel Atkins, fortunately I have travelled extensively in the airline industry and sampled beers in every country I have visited except Saudi’s Arabia..

There is no better beer than the one available, be it an English Ale, or a Guinness, or even some of the fine craft beers on the market throughout the world now.

Exception to that is Fosters, the greatest con job foisted upon the world by us Australians. Nobody in their right mind in this day and age would drink it, but we have the world convinced it is OK to pay us so that you can brew it and drink it too.

Cheers, off to get s new keg this afternoon.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Peter,
Fosters* is known as Kangeroo piss over here.

>>There is no better beer than the one available<< only a coffee drinker could think so. :)

Life's too short choose quality (certainly over quantity).

My former MGA owning mate travels a lot and drinks whatever is available too but likes real ale however from his rugby playing drinking days he's got used to drinking anything. He can drink the keg/fizz version of a real ale and still think it's worth it and despite the higher price and comparative lack of taste.

Massive international companies buy up small breweries over here to get the brand and credibility then mass brand in different breweries even with other brewers thus changing the beer/ale.

Don't get me going on ale, I'm known as a beer snob and beer bore - which is so unfair as I only go on, and on, . . . about real ale. :)

*owned by the international brewing group AB InBev, brewed in the UK by Heineken UK Limited.
Nigel Atkins

No thank you on the electronic parts. I've toured extensively, sometimes thousands of miles in one go. The mechanical parts have proven themselves more reliable to me than anything. If you need to hammer on anything to keep it going, then there's a serious problem to be remedied!

My preference for the mechanical parts is due to many factors including overall reliability, advance warning if something is amiss, and the ability to repair on the road if needed (important when you're 1,000 miles from home). Electronic parts give no warning, they just fail suddenly and I'm not comfortable with that.

My TC has been extremely reliable using all original parts. In the past 40,000 miles I've had exactly one fuel pump go out and it was my fault for never cleaning the intake screen, which clogged, and is an issue that would have burned out an electronic one also. That pump was in there for 35 years, installed by the previous owner in the early 1980's.

I've also had one coil failure, which was a brand new coil that replaced an old one (which is now back in the car and running fine). I ignored my own rules to never replace good parts and it bit me. This is another item that would have failed just the same with electronic parts installed.

Beyond that I've had no issues with the car. But I've seen pertronix-equipped cars die in the fast lane of the highway, and a couple others get towed home. As far as alternators go, I just don't see the need. The generator is capable of powering every system on the car with plenty of reserve, and needs a new bushing and brushes once every coupe decades at a cost of about $15. Should something go wrong, I could rebuild it on the side of the road. Or adjust a control box if it somehow went out of adjustment. You can't do anything with a dead alternator, electronic ignition or solid state regulator, unless you carry spares of them all in the boot. Wait, what boot? ;)

Just my preference obviously. And my wife's. After things she's seen in caravans she would never let me put electronics in the car!
Steve Simmons

Steve, you buy good quality electronic parts fit them a and forget them, no servicing or fiddling around at the road side. If you worry that something is coming to the end of its useful life get it reconned or replaced.

I appreciate that the parts made decades ago are worth holding on to as long as possible as long as they don't need constant fiddling with.

40,000 miles, just think how many more you could have got in without the extra fiddling and servicing. :)

As long as the components aren't like Trigger's broom - Trigger won an award for saving the council money by having used the same broom to sweep the roads for 20 years, he looked after his broom and maintained it for 20 years, the 20 year old broom had 17 new heads and 14 new handles. :)

Bit like the originality of of those stupidly valued race cars.

Now tell us more about what you're wife saw going on in caravans. :)
Nigel Atkins

I just haven't had that experience. No way putting an electronic fuel pump in the car would have made it more reliable. The mechanical fuel pump was killed by something that would have killed an electronic version just as effectively.

As far as fiddling on the side of the road goes, the point is that when a part fails (and all parts eventually fail), mechanical ones can be repaired on the road while electronic ones will require replacement, which often ends up as a tow home unless you carry a spare alternator, control box, ignition setup, fuel pump and whatever else has been replaced by modern parts. I'd rather not have to carry all that, which means if a part breaks while I'm 1,500 miles from home, I'm stuck. The corner parts house isn't going to have what you need. Having mechanical parts means you're self-sufficient if something does go wrong.

I like my old cars because they're old cars, so electronics don't have any appeal to me. The only additional maintenance on the mechanical parts in question versus electronic, is checking the points once per year.

The American version of Trigger's broom is George Washinton's axe. You know, the one he famously cut down the apple tree with. Did you know that I own that historic axe? It's only had the head replaced three times and the handle 12 times. ;)
Steve Simmons

Lucky you owning that axe you must be so proud.

I only heard the Trigger's broom a few years ago but its from a popular comedy here that must go back decades. I never really watched as the humour was more previous generation to me but the writing and acting are very good.

The thing with any part is to replace it before it goes wrong but not just for the sake of it. Not mean pump now but many owners seem to hold on to parts, particularly service parts, because they are working but they may be well passed their best for performance and even working very inefficiently even playing up. This can necessitate the glory of the roadside repair hero, very satisfied with getting the car going again (and perhaps again and again). I've had enough of that for two lifetimes, I think it's clever not to have to do that but I know some seeing it as a joy of ownership (not meaning you) and as always each to their own.

I'm totally with you I don't really carry any spares or tools (shh, not even a spare wheel) but mine is a newer car with modern bits on it.

I've had points close up once, I wouldn't have it again which is why I've always had various electronic on various classics and in a total of a couple hundred thousand miles I've never had a problem with electronic ignitions (but I've never had Pertronix or the cheap unreliable ones).

I do understand you with your car and the way you look after it and drive it and I'd do the same as you with your car (except bin those points of course).
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, if not Pertronix, what do you use? I had points close up last year. Fortunately, I was only 5 miles from home (after a 150 drive) and we were able to get the replacement points set and be on our way before darkness completely closed in.

Thanks.

Jud
J. K. Chapin

Points should not close up suddenly. It should take years of recreational driving before that happens. If this is a problem then something is wrong. Either cheap points or a lack of lubrication. A lot of people don't put anything on the lobes, which results in accelerated wear of the points cam. I check mine about once per year in each of five cars I run them in, and they are rarely more than a couple thou off. The only car I run electronic ignition in is a '69 CGT, and it's the only one that has suffered total ignition failure (Luminition EI unit).

Jud, could you not simply open them up again? Or did they wear down so far that couldn't be done? If the latter, then something needs addressing!

The beauty of the mechanical parts in my view, is that you never have to replace a working part "before it goes wrong". They almost always give warning when they start to wear out. If a part is working properly, I always leave it in place. With an electronic part there's simply no way to know at what point it will fail. That scares me, especially on my daily driver '67 BGT. If my car is unreliable then I simply can't use it because being late is a major problem in my line of work.

Not sure how an oil discussion turned into the merits of mechanical versus electronic. :)
Steve Simmons

This thread was discussed between 28/02/2019 and 08/03/2019

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