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MG TD TF 1500 - Stored engine.

When I bought my TD I thought that the engine was completely rebuilt in 1989 and stored since then. Now I find that it was actually 1980. That means the engine has been in dry storage for 25 years! When I took off the rocket cover and the sump there was plenty of oil around and no sign of oxidation or wear. So the question is,is it neccessary to completely tear the engine down again before starting it? What happens to the inside of an engine after setting for a lond period with out being turned over? Thanks JL
James Lea

I think the concern might be for the gaskets and for the correct torque values on various engine fasteners -- some recommended torque values have changed over the years and the consequences of error more expensive today. I would want to do at least a partial disassembly to check things.

Regards,
Dennis
D F Sexton

Mine sat for 24 years (put away in '78)... Changed all the fluids, primed the oil system and started it up...freed a stuck valve, that was 7000 miles ago (a year ago August 8th).
The engine as far as i know was rebuilt in 1969.
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Hi james, you don't say whether the engine can be turned over by hand. I would pull the plugs out and squirt a bit of oil into the cylinders and try to turn it by hand.

If everything seems to be OK, then I would try to start it up. Problems will then appear and you will have to sort through them one at a time.

Cheers,

Paul
Paul van Gool

I went through a similar experience with my TC engine. Taken out of the car and "rebuilt" and then sat for 25 years in " dry" storage. Since it was already out of the car decided to have it checked out. There were a lot of problems with the 1970s rebuild. I guess it depends who did the rebuild but I think today they are much better done. In the 1970s it was just another old engine and the less spent on it the better. You also have the opportunity to instal modern front and rear oil seals. Go to the T-ABC site for a look at Andrew Bradley's rear seal or find the Schapple Volvo seal from Australia. Even though the Moss seal is supposed to be improved I would not use it before hearing a chorus of glowing testimonials.Terry
Terry O'Brien

Paul. Yes, it turns over easily and looks very good inside but I am still thinking now is the time to tear it down completely. The only thing I have to judge the rebuild on are some photos of all of the engine parts on a garage floor and on closer inspection I see that the head is not off the block. If they didn't pull the pistons or valves who knows what kind of "rebuild" job they did.
Terry. I didn't know about the new oil seals so thanks for the heads up on that one. I will defiantly put new seals in. Cheers. JL
James Lea

Should be easy enought to pull the head and pan. If no rust, and you have good details on who built it, I would think it is ok to start it.

Now saying that, I purchased a "newly rebuilt" engine last year. I went to turn it over to check oil pressure and tore up the cam. Oil pump was not done correctly and froze up.

I am going to now pull the engine and having a shop go over it to check the rest of the rebuild to assure I have an engine that is ok.
Bruce Cunha

James,

I would tend to error on the side of caution with this engine. I would disassemble and measure everything before trying to start it. With any luck, you won't need to change much. At least you will have piece of mind knowing the real condition of the engine.

If you pull the head, in addition to the condition of the head/valves, check the head studs for stretched threads. If you pull the pistons, you might want to consider changing the little end pinch bolts to better hardened bolts.

Let us know what you find!

Good luck,
Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

James, I'm seconding those who say remove and disassemble. You will probably find the most difficult part of the project is hoisting the engine from the car. From there, if everything is good, you are out at the most gaskets and seals.

I took the other path, and drove a car with a working engine for almost 20 years. The condition of the wood tub frame was what prompted my restoration, but I was shocked by the condition of the bearings and valves when I rotated the engine on the stand and removed ths sump. I was a few turns of the engine from bearing failure. What has turned out to be a fairly inexpensive rebuild could have been a real disaster. I was lucky... you might want to make your own luck!

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

James, In 1978-79, (close to your '80 rebuild date), there were no rod bolts/nuts or small-end pinch bolts available so you had to re-use the old ones. I would definitely change those and research the archives here about them. The good thing was that all "factory" or Vandervell bearings were still commonly available, avoiding some of the problems with modern rebuilds today. Also research the volumes in the archives about the seals. Lots of pro and con. One reason so many T-series cars are still around and in good condition underneath is the streams of oil blown back when driving. I agree with Terry- then the rebuilder would likely throw some new tappets onto an old, worn cam, not replace bent pushrods, etc., but you never know. I would definitely replace the original steel valve guides with the phsophor-bronze kind, and at least the exhaust valves with the stellite coated ones while it is apart. George
George Butz

On the same subject... I have a 1952 TD that has not fired since 1989. Original engine with 64k. I pulled the plugs and squirted oil in the cylinders and let it sit a day. I turned it over by hand for a few days then added a battery & turned it over. I had disconnected the fuel pump as the gas lines were all gummed up.
Oil pressure shot up to about 60psi & oil was moving freely from the rockers.
I do not have a spark & that is my next project but should I not try and start it?
I bought it from the original owner and the mileage is documented as correct. The car is not bad except for interior and I do not want to restore it yet, money reasons, & wanted to drive it around as a timepiece since it is about 95% original.
V.W. Piņa

V.W. Piņa,

It sounds like your oil system is up to par, and you have a handle on clearing out your fuel lines. Did you look inside the cylinders to see if there was any corrosion from sitting? Moisture in the oil and moisture inside the engine can wreck havoc with parts which move against each other.

The only other concern is the health of the cooling system in the engine itself. How clean is the fluid coming from the block drain? Does it seem to be plain water with rust and scale, or is it a mix of antifreeze and water? I would want to flush as much crude out of the engine cooling and replace the water pump prior to starting if possible.

Your spark problem is probably as simple as a bad condenser or closed or corroded points.

If it were mine, considering the amount of money a complete rebuild is, I would want to check it over. 64k is a lot of miles on one of these engines, although going longer without a rebuild is not unheard of. I guess my thought is that knowing what's inside is better than guessing.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

V.W.,

You should talk with Gordon Lawson. He has a great original 53 that was stored for many years. He did a great job of carefully bringing the car back to life.

I agree with Dave, you should definitely flush the block and change the oil before and after running the engine for a couple hours.

Keep us posted on your progress!

Good luck,
Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Dave,
A little more background. The car was in SOCAL all of its life until I purchased it almost 3 years ago. Inside of cylinders looked excellent as did under the valve cover and the oil looks fresh. I think it had an oil change prior its last use 15 years ago. I had her shipped to me with the coolant drained as it was February and the carrier, Passport Transport, recommended draining the coolant. Any remaining coolant in the engine was antifreeze & quite green.

I will change out the condenser & see if I get a spark. I have a newly rebuilt SU fuel pump installed but need to have the Gas tank cleaned. Kinda rusty in there. I have partially taken apart the carbs & cleaned out all of the shellac that had developed in the bowls & lines.

When you say "check it over" do you mean partially disassemble the engine? If so where do I begin?

Evan,
Thanks & I will let everyone know my progress. I have been lurking for some time & enjoy all of the posts from everyone. I have learned a lot from you guys.

I am in the middle a few projects and have promised my 11 yr old daughter I would finish rebuilding the 72 midget I started. She is more gung ho than my son. I always try and sneak in a little TD work. I am not rushing this one!


Thanks again.
Vincent


V.W. Piņa

Vincent,

I would do a compression check first. Compression checks are normally done on a warm engine, but do it cold as running the engine at this point is something that you only want to do if everything else checks out. You will find out if your engine has balanced compression. If one cylinder is more than 15 psi lower than the others, consider a rebuild. Cold I would be hoping for something in the 120 psi or above range depending on your guage.

I would drop the oil sump and look at the main bearings and the rod bearings, one at a time to keep from shifting the crank position. I don't like plastiguage on a rebuild because I would rather machine to fit the bearings to be used, but in this case it might be a good test to check for bearing wear. You are looking for pits, chunks of missing bearings, anything that looks like you are on your way to bearing disaster. This would also give you a chance to check the torques on each fastner, providing insight into how the well gudgeon pin clamp bolts on the small end of the rods might have been done.

You could even pull a piston out, but if the compression is good I wouldn't as getting a ring compressor up there with the crank in place is really, really difficult.

I would remove the oil pump cover and check the pump gears for clearances as well. 60 psi on cold oil is good, so that might be overkill. Lower oil pressure on warm oil is usually due to too much clearances in bearings.

Good luck,
dave
Dave Braun




Vincent;
Dave Braun is corect in suggesting that you pull the oil pan and check the bearings. I pulled down an engine that had been setting ten years and when checking the rod bearings I found the bearing surface was not worn but had traces all through it as if a mole had burrowed around. This was on all bearings. The crank did not have any wear on it . I contacted the Vandervel tech rep and the first thing he told me was that the car had used Castrol 20W-50. He explained that there was nothing wrong with the oil but this was occuring on stored engines and they all had used Castrol.
I still use Castrol and have not had that happen again. There is no reasonable explanation for the worm like traces but I would pull the bearings one at a time just to be safe. Also it will allow you to clean out any and all sludge if it needs it. Primary cost is one pan gasket and a lot of security in knowing all is well.
Sandy Sanders
Hudson Florida
Sandy Sanders

This thread was discussed between 24/09/2005 and 28/09/2005

MG TD TF 1500 index

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