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MG TD TF 1500 - Steel in oil filter

Hi all. I have done an oil change on the '50 TD and I kept the filter. I got around to cutting it open to check it a few weeks ago. What I found was a filter full of steel bits.... looked like "glitter". I know I have a problem and I have to start looking. I am not sure of all the places I should look.

Engine runs and sounds great. (although I have not run it since finding the steel in the filter) It is all steel as I can remove all of it with a strong magnet. I hope the main bearings are not affected. This engine is a fresh rebuild (5000 mi ago)

Are there any out there that have had any experience with this, and if so what should I be looking for?
C.R. Tyrell

C.R as the oil is out at this moment I guess, try to get a finger in to the drain hole and feel if you have any residue in the sump. If so I am sorry to say you better take the sump of for inspection .

Gerard
Gerard Hengeveld

Oil is not out, as the oil was changed before I had a chance to open the filter cartridge. I will drain all the fresh oil out and see what flushes out with it. I am going to check for consistent valve opening measurements... I have a suspicion it may be cam related. Cam was reground by a competent company, may have issues. I have never had to investigate an engine for this before and I am not sure exactly where to start.
C.R. Tyrell

CR,
If it were bearing material I think they are white metal and you would possibly have lower oil pressure. If it is Steel - then it may be the cam or followers producing swaff. If you put a dial gague on the rockers and check the cam lift it may point you in the right direction. They shoud all be the same within a few thou. Chances of even ware across the board is I think very unlikly. One or two should be down a tad if they have failed.
Did you bed in the cam when you fitted it?
30 mins at 2000 to 3000 rpm's? Fully lubed up with assembly lub?
Did you fit anythign new? Oil pump gears, timing chain, new distributor, new pistons and rings? Hard to say where swaff comes form without a good look. Sorry to say.
Rod
Rod Jones

If you absolutely want to know your could send it off for oil analysis and see what materials come back.

Really not a bad idea anyway at this point as it might tell you what else is wearing like bearings etc.

Just Google engine oil analysis

Or lets see if anyone has a company these use and like here.
Christopher Couper

The engine was fully and properly bedded in after the rebuild. Oil pressure is and always has been 40#@ 3000 rpm. The oil pressure is read off the banjo at the head as it is an early 1950 TD. I did have some strange valve noise but I managed to track that down to 4 faulty pushrods. The ends were loose. They have all been replaced.

I am going to check the valve train and rockers for proper travel. Sounds like a good place to start.
.. CR
C.R. Tyrell

C R,
I am suggesting a minor mod which might give you earlier warning before cutting the filter. A strong bar magnet (epoxy glued) in the sump plug, will slowly collect iron / steel bits in the sump oil, even while the car is sitting in the shed. It might not attract all stray metal, (certainly not white metal) but it is definitely another way of being alerted to some issues.

About 40 years ago I found an oil pump tooth on the magnet. It told me that the pump circlip had come off and the shaft was being belted back in by the conrod! There had been no other warning as the open exhaust on the racing car had disguised that. About three years ago I found the timing chain clip on the magnet. I had used a cheap chain and the clip had broken! (It probably cracked when fitted 19 years ago.) I have also found tiny bits of the ends of valve springs on the magnet. I now ignore those but once removed the head unnecessarily, trying to find what it was.

Don't be alarmed if, at oil change, you find a FINE magnetic sludge on the magnet. About a half thimble full is normal.

Good luck with the problem. I hope it turns out to be something easy fixed!

Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

CR as you state you had 4 loose pushrod ends they may have been the source of your metal particles. The run in procedure for the reground cam was by the book. Unless the quality of the cam work was below par or the wear was from the cam followers (did you have the old followers resurfaced or were they new?) then it may just be the 4 pushrods. Somewhere in the archive mention was made of a sump plug with a magnet attached. Your experience suggests that such a plug is a worthwhile investment for us all. Better to trap any metal in the sump as opposed to having it move through the galleries before it is finally removed at the filter. Cutting open & examining the filter is now something I will do at every oil change. Hope your investigation shows nothing too serious. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Thanks all. I have a strong rare earth magnet that is on the drain plug, and it usually has a little metal "sludge" on it. One good thing is that the oil filter is first in line from the pump, and it appears to have caught everything from getting to the gallery.

Cam followers might have been re-surfaced, I will have to check with the engine builder.

..CR
C.R. Tyrell

CR,
Most likely location is cam followers. Good oil pressure would be a reliable indication of healthy bearing inserts and journals.
The cam followers can be inspected without serious teardown, just removal of valve cover, tappet cover and pushrods. You may find small pits on the flat surfaces where particles are spalling off. The remaining flat surfaces will still provide normal performance, but it is demoralizing to think of bits and pieces disintegrating inside. I know that feeling, it is called old age.
JRN JIM

CR, did you have any machine work done to the engine? Head milling, block decking, line boring, crank cutting, etc.? If so, how did you clean the parts after this? Did you flush all the oil galleries and scrub them with gun-cleaning brushes? What I'm getting at is this may be swarf left over from machining and may have nothing to do with ongoing wear. All the same, it's not good since you don't want that stuff hitting the babbit bearings. But as it's now in the filter it's no longer harmful. If this is a cleaning issue I'd thoroughly clean the filter and housing and run fresh oil through it until the engine warms up and then give it another oil and filter change with another close inspection for swarf.
Kevin McLemore

I think I found where the steel is comming from. Now all I have to do is figure out the best fix.

Needless to say... The Camshaft is worn beyond repair.


C.R. Tyrell

oh poop.

where they new 5000 miles ago?
mog

Not sure, but I think so... I have to check with the engine builder. I am sure he will remember. He doesn't do too many XPAG engines, and his 90 year old dad loved it. Matter of fact I think his dad did most of the grunt work on it, when he wasn't tooling around on his "Crotch Rocket".
C.R. Tyrell

Does Len Fennelli still sell a cam set-up for the TD's?
C.R. Tyrell

hmm, is it me or are the two middle followers less damaged.
mog

The two middle followers are not as bad as the rest. #5 is the best of them, but it is starting to flake off as well.

Picture is of #5

.... CR


C.R. Tyrell

That's a pain CR. It shows how the XPAG can eat followers if either the run in procedure is not strictly adhered to or the rejuvination of the cam &/or followers is not first rate. I guess LF is still in business. Just ensure you don't use his 1.44" valve springs. Suitable springs are available from Allen Waye @ Performance Springs in Brisbane QLD. The great thing about the roller lifters (I believe they're from a big block Chevvy) is that this problem is eliminated. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Period literature has many articles about xpG and poor valve train life. Articles from 60 years ago.. Regards, Tom
tm peterson

You should be able to see your cam lobes thru the follower sockets...is it worn or are you simply taking the follower surface as indication that your cam is bad? One does not necessarily follow the other...
Gene Gillam

All the lobes are real shiny. The one I can see best seems to be "flattened"

Here is a picture.... not a good clear picture, but it looks like some deep scoring on the lobe.


C.R. Tyrell

Ouch! What kind of oil were you running? With that much lifter damage, I would replace the cam. George
George Butz

Engine was properly broken in after rebuild, with Redline break-in oil and 20W50 Castrol GTX.

Engine has had 3 Oil changes since break-in. Always with Castrol GTX 20w50 and EOS for ZDDP supplement. Engine has always ran strong with lots of power.

... CR
C.R. Tyrell

I'm on my 3rd set of tappets. New set after the engine rebuild, a replacement set after 10000 miles and a set sent to Delta for refurbish and installed at 20000 miles. The XPAG has a poor design for tappet/cam lobe oiling right off the bat. My experience with the so called " improved tappet/ cam combo" from Crane leave much to be desired. In fairness I do run the engine to higher revs than most of you would think about doing and run it very hard for long periods. Considering that most of the original tappets ran many thousand of miles longer without seeing this kind of degregation, I have serious doubts about the quality available off the shelf today.

I won't beat the zddp horse again, but I personally bid goodbye to the GTX many years ago after decades of use and went to the Valvoline VR1. To much zddp can be as bad or worse than none at all.

The thing that lures me to Len's set up is not the claimed performance gains, but the expectation that the quick tappet failure will be eliminated. I have to admit it would be nice to see what the internals of that set up look like after about 50000 miles.


MG LaVerne

C.R. Please contact me at your convenience.
mgcarnut at charter dot net
Jim
Jim Merz

With my most recent rebuild (2006), I fitted a magnetic sump plug from Mad Metrics.

With a fresh rebuild, at the first oil change (500 miles) I was astounded at what was sticking to the sump plug!. So I cut open the oil filter and did indeed find some more, almost-invisible metal filings.

For my rebuild, I asked that the block be washed after machining, and I only roughed-up the bores by hand with emery cloth. I am now suspicious that the block wasn't washed.

Nonetheless, the magnetic plug did its job - highly recommended.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

Jim, I sent you an e-mail.

... CR
C.R. Tyrell

Sort of makes a person want to pull the tappets just as a matter of routine to see what condition they are in! Kind of spooky. Mark
Mark Strang

Hi CR
If you need some internal engine parts please contact me. I have some restored hardened camshafts, lifters and other items I would like to sell.
gary krukoski at yahoo dot com

Gary
gl krukoski

This thread was discussed between 06/11/2014 and 09/11/2014

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