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MG TD TF 1500 - Quality Condenser?
| After reading the archive, did anyone come up with a source for a quality condenser, either from one of the usual suppliers or something good quality aftermarket? Mounting outside the dizzy or extensive modifications not an option for this car. Thanks, George |
| George Butz |
| Advanced Distributors in the USA or Distributor Doctor in the UK (where Moss also from time to time sell the Distributor Doctor product). Or perhaps a NOS Lucas. Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| George, this handout on condensers was distributed at the recent T Type Restoration Day here in Sydney. T TYPE CONDENSERS The following research was undertaken by Lonnie Cook, the owner of TF 7211 in the States: “I looked at probably 300 photos of condensers on-line. I found only two that fit the distributor ... Moss and Plymouth Arrow. Two Moss condensers failed in a very short time so I searched for an alternative and found the Plymouth Arrow condenser. The condenser is a little smaller diameter than the original Lucas or Moss condenser. Here are manufacturers' part numbers: BWD G635 Echlin Ignition Parts ECH EP657 AIRTEX 5H1025 CARQUEST 501565 WELLS JA525 GM 88921447 MITSUBISHI MD607309 MITSUBISHI MD607530 BOSCH 02237 AC Delco E281 Forecast 2844 ORIGINAL ENGINE MANAGEMENT 2844 STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS JC-53 Prices range from $1.55 to $15.00. Some parts houses are closing them out at $1.99 or less. Not many Plymouth Arrows still roaming the highways. NAPA part number ECH EP657. Advance Autoparts number G635” The TF owner has fitted the ECH EP 657 & reports no problems. The Moss condensers have an alarming failure rate, many unserviceable straight out of the box with others failing shortly thereafter. A great many owners worldwide have reported problems with these condensers & this is yet another instance where Moss parts should be viewed with suspicion. Peter Hehir TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
George - Let me ask, why are you looking for a replacement capacitor (condenser)? Is the capacitor presently in your distributor bad,or are you just replacing it because you are replacing the points? If the latter, then don't! Capacitors don't wear out - the capacitor in our TD (which we purchased in 1974) was never replaced until I converted over to the pertronix (which I did solely because I am lazy and don't care to fuss with points replacement and adjustment) somewhere in the past decade. The original capacitor never gave me a bit of trouble and is, in fact is still on the still on the original mounting plate that I carry in the car in case the Pertronix dies. While it wasn't a concern to me, the shop superintendent of the shop I worked in stopped by to BS with me about cars and in the course of our conversation he said that when doing a tune up on his cars, he always looked at the condition of the points. He always looked at the contacts on the points to see if there was any material being deposited on one of the contacts from the opposing contact - if there was no transfer from one contact to the other, then he left the existing capacitor in the distributor. He only changed the capacitor if there was material transfer from one contact to the other. His rational was that ignition capacitors have a tolerance figure of 20%, which means that a given capacitance value can vary as much as 40% (from -20% to +20%). Since the capacitors are relatively cheap, he could buy a handful of capacitors and swap them out until he found one that would eliminate the material transfer between the contacts of the points. Once he found the correct capacitor, he left it in as long as he owned the car. My point is all of this, is if there is no material transfer (of if the transfer is minimal), leave the existing capacitor in place - a lot easier and less expensive than trying to find one that will last more than a few days after installing it. Ignition capacitors available today a junk and will never get any better - just take a look at the ignition of today's car, most of which don't even have a distributor in them. Cheers - Dave PS - e-mail me at SUfuelpumps@donobi.net and I'll check if I have a new old stock capacitor. _ |
| DW DuBois |
| Thanks for the list and comments. Dave, the present owner of a TF-1500 I helped restore in the late 80's told me it runs poorly after driving for a while. I have not looked at the car for years, so I realize it could be anything. I know the usual list of suspect things to look over, and will check the points as suggested before changing the condenser. I have an early Petronix that had been bulletproof so far in my own car. George |
| George Butz |
| George - If it turns out to be the capacitor, have him e-mail me. Cheers - Dave |
| DW DuBois |
| Peter - Thanks for the publicity and the vote of confidence. I hope that my Plymouth Arrow condenser doesn't fail. Don't want every T-car owner in Oz mad at me!! Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| What is purported to be an original condenser is listed on "Fleabay" at present. |
| G Evans |
| G Evans - took look at the auction site and what is there is not original. To my understanding the original condenser was like the one in the photo. It is long and soldered to the bracket. I could be wrong, if so I trust and hope that Dave DuBois will correct me. BobbyG  |
| Bobby Galvez |
| You are correct Bobby - that's an original. " I hope that my Plymouth Arrow condenser doesn't fail. Don't want every T-car owner in Oz mad at me!!" It the capacitor for the Plymouth has been sitting on the shelf for several years, chances are that it will work ok. If it is new in the past year or so, I would not bet on them. Cheers - Dave |
| DW DuBois |
| Try NAPA part #RR175 |
| Len Fanelli |
| While we're on the topic of ignition items, one element which bears a close look is that phenolic insulator which is seen at nine o'clock in the photo above. It's part of the points base plate assembly. Sometimes these develop flaws which cause misfires. These flaws can easily go undetected - they can be anywhere from a scratch on the surface to a crack in the insulator. Mine was cracked and was causing a severe low RPM misfire. It's easy to go looking for other causes without taking a look at this item. Another thing which I learned from experience - the mechanical tach drive behind the generator can get loose and start to get nudged over by torque to where it comes into contact with the low tension lead connection on the same stud with the phenolic spacer. This depends on the orientation of the distributor. My car had this and it was driving me nuts - there was a high end misfire which was intermittent. I'd get to cruising along at 60 MPH or so and the misfire would start. On deceleration it would go away. On acceleration it would resume. Returning from my last road trip the engine finally quit some 180 miles from home. I swapped out condensers and tried a new coil. No joy. We took the "ride of shame" home on a flatbed. Back in my garage a fellow club member came over and we started to troubleshoot the system with a test light. We found no juice between the low tension terminal on the coil and the distributor. This was when I took a close look around the distributor and found the tach drive touching the terminal on the distributor. I rotated the tach drive away from it, noticed the little compression collar on its drive shaft and tightened the set screw. The engine fired right up on the first try. With apologies for hijacking the thread, I felt that this might be a good moment to share. Sometimes we're eager to blame a condenser when the fault might be elsewhere. The tach drive part is easy, and I feel like total fool for not having known to look on the roadside - it would have been a two minute fix instead of a seven hour ordeal. The phenolic insulator is harder to inspect, but if there are ignition issues which are tough to locate, it's one place to look. Close inspection requires removal of the points base plate. It's worth the time. BobbyG |
| Bobby Galvez |
| Thanks Bobby. First I've heard about checking the insulator. Apart from the visual check, (which may not pick up a difficult to see fault), is there a conclusive electrical test that can be performed using an AVO or ohmmeter? Also if found faulty I guess it would be difficult to find an OEM replacement but perhaps something turned up on a lathe in a material like acetal may do the job? One for the EE's to wade in on. Again apologies for the (further) hijack. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| BobbyG To ensure the tacho drive does not rotate again a fix is to bracket it between the grease nipple and one of the generator thru bolts. Images are in the archive. The drive does not even have to touch the distributor connection to create problems, the LT will jump across a small gap, I posted my experiences. Graeme |
| G Evans |
| Peter, to my knowledge that insulator isn't available by itself. My solution was to get a replacement points base plate from Moss. Don't know if you use Moss USA or Moss Europe. At Moss USA it's part no. 152-900 and cost at this time is $ 17.99 At Moss Europe it's part no. 163-700 and cost at this time is £ 35.90 It's a big price difference, don't know if they use the same source for the part. I don't know of an electrical test, but a magnifying glass should help if the eyes aren't quite as sharp as they could be. On mine the crack was easily visible, see the attached photo. G Evans, I searched the Archive and could not find a photo of the bracket you mention. It would be good to see. Thanks! BobbyG  |
| Bobby Galvez |
| Thanks Bobby. That's a heavy whack just to replace an insulator. (I don't buy from Moss anymore). Seems like a short length of acetal rod would do the trick. Thanks for the info. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| BobbyG Courtesy of NickyT MGExp Forum  |
| G Evans |
| Peter - take a look at the photo in this link to the Moss Europe catalogue. Mouse over the image and it magnifies a bit - there is a step in the insulator - not sure if it will be clear to you. http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/plate-kit-with-condenser-points-163-700.html?assoc=133587 By the way, what is this acetal of which you speak? If there is a way to machine this little part you would be doing MG-dom a great service! G Evans - thanks for the photo! BobbyG |
| Bobby Galvez |
| Hi Bobby. When I restored my handbrake I tried to buy the pawl rod bush but found it was NLA so I had a mate with a lathe turn up some bushes in acetal. This is a hard wearing plastic type material ideal for bearings. It turns nicely so I figured it could be used to make the insulator. Being in the plastic family it should function as an insulator. This from Wikipedia. "Acetal's great machinability together with its dimensional stability, mechanical strength, zero moisture absorption and good load-bearing properties make it ideal for close-tolerance parts. Key Features of Acetal Rod, Acetal Sheet and Acetal Tube: High hardness and stiffness. Very high mechanical properties." No mention of its insulating properties though. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Gentlemen - Instead of trying to stop the tach drive gearbox from shorting out the ignition with braces or insulators, why not look in the ignition section of the shop manual, C.14 and C.19. These illustrations show two different orientations of the distributor that have the terminal for the coil lead positioned such that the tach drive gearbox cannot come in contact with the terminal (see the heavy black arrow in the attached picture). All that is required to achieve this change of position is to set the front pulley to the TDC mark, then mark the position of the rotor in the distributor, lift the distributor high enough to clear the gear, turn the distributor to one of the positions shown in the above pictures and drop it back into place (you may have to try a couple of times to get the rotor in the proper position and possibly have to adjust everything for the proper TDC position of the rotor, then tighten it in place). I did this very thing quite a few years ago in our TD and eliminated any problem with the tach gearbox shorting out the coil. You just have to watch that the hold down springs for the distributor cap have sufficient room to release the cap. If you want to minimize the tach drive gearbox, go to Lowe's or Agent Orange (AKA Home Depot) and get a fiber washer that will fit in the hold down sleeve of the gearbox and tighten everything up. Cheers - Dave  |
| DW DuBois |
| Bobby To make such an isolator is child's play to anybody with access to a lathe. Acetal rod is cheap. Teflon could also be used. Regards Declan |
| Declan Burns |
| Here's a link to the distributor doctor. He offers quality parts. A great website! http://www.distributordoctor.com/distributor_condensers.htm Regards Declan |
| Declan Burns |
| Nice post Declan. His comments are well worth reading. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Declan, Peter, David - thanks! Peter - as I looked for information about acetal I did read that it has good insulating qualities. It might be just the thing for that little piece. Merry Christmas all! BobbyG |
| Bobby Galvez |
| If you want easy access to the dizzy cap clips I am still of the opinion that the dizzy located where the tacho drive can create issues is the optimum location. |
| G Evans |
This thread was discussed between 20/12/2015 and 24/12/2015
MG TD TF 1500 index
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