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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Ominous Engine Rattle

I am in great fear. In preparation for a drive over to Dillard, GA, on Saturday (~100 miles each way) I decided to take the TD out for a test drive this morning. It fired right up, oil pressure good at 55+lbs, but it was running really rough and wouldn't idle. I shut it down and went under the bonnet to jiggle all the ignition and carb parts (fingers crossed and head in the sand you know). Fired it back up and it ran rough for about 20-30 seconds and then came the ominous rattle from the engine. I immediately shut it down and am now I'm scsred to crank it for fear of doing further damage.

If I've broken a crankshaft or broken a rod, is there any way to tell short of taking the engine apart? If it's not a crankshaft or a rod, what else could it be?

I guess I should start with the rockers and valve train in case (not with my luck) it's a something there that I might be able to tackle. If something broken is not obvious, is there something more that I should look for?

If it is the crankshaft or a rod, will turning the engine with the crank or the starter motor do additional harm?

Thanks.

Jud XPAG/TD2/25404
J K Chapin

Jud.
I would have a couple of turns by the crank only. Have someone turn it while you listen. Any strange clicks or clacks means engine out.I would remove the valve cover first and observe the valve train while turning. It could also be a valve problem such as broken spring etc.
Sandy
ss sanders

Drop the pan, if any pieces in the pan or anything falls out when you rotate the crank then engine out.

Jim
James Neel

Put in 1st gear and set the handbrake. Try turning the engine over with your hand crank. If it turns and the car doesn't move....not good. If you can't turn it that may mean you have another issue maybe... Either way banging from the engine ...not good. Pull the pan and get a better idea of what's happening.

Other than a single turn with the hand crank, I wouldn't do any spinning of the engine until I determined the cause of the racket.
MG LaVerne

Y'all are telling me what I already knew but didn't want to hear. Dang! I hadn't thought about dropping the pan but that makes perfect sense. Looks like I'm done driving for the winter even though down here winter doesn't arrive for three more months. Right now I'm feeling very very low and I don't think more beer will help so I guess I'd best just get started. I'm glad y'all are here 'cause I'm sure there will be a million questions. Thanks for your support. Jud
J K Chapin

Sandy is on the right track.

The first and easiest exam is pulling the valve cover and examine rockers, springs and pushrods.

If you can use your hand crank, pull the spark plugs, put it in 4th gear and see if the hand crank can turn without moving the TD. This should tell if crank is intact. Afterwards, put it in nuetral and roll the engine over with the crank to get a feel for what going on inside.

If you can't run the crank handle in, try rotating the fan; push the belt tighter if the belt slips.

Good oil pressure is an indication rods bearings are still tight.
JRN JIM

Remove the fan belt, grab the pulley and try to rotate/wiggle by hand. It should not move. If it does, crank broken between #1 main and rod. Been there, done that. BTW, I drove for a half mile or so with my crank broken. The break was angled/jammed together, so it still ran and could be rolled over easily, ie Jim and LaVerne's test would not be valid with the break I had. Also oil pressure went to 10 or below. Good luck! George
George Butz

Sandy is on the right track.

I agree for a first look! Could be a broken rocker or a bent push rod also a loose rocker shaft pedistal, all will make noise. If everything is in order, then pull the pan and pray. PJ
Paul S Jennings

It's not looking good. I removed the valve cover and saw, to my untrained eye, nothing amiss. I pulled the plugs, disconnected all the ignition wires and put it in 4th with the hand break on. I could not turn the engine with the crank at all. I took it out of gear and turned the crank. the valve train appeared to be working but after 1/2 rotation I could turn it no further. Using the fan I backed up the engine a bit and tried again. It stopped in the same place. It's like something is stopping a piston from being able to reach TDC. I think the next steps are drop the pan and see what parts fall out and pull the head and see what broken parts are preventing the engine from turning. After that it's pull the engine.

1. Any better ideas?
2. Should I pull the engine and tranny as a unit or disconnect them and pull the engine by itself?

BTW, did y'all know how much a bonnet weighs? I rigged up a couple of pulleys and some rope and undid the rear keeper and tugged. Nothing moved. I made sure all was free and gave a mighty tug and finally got the bonnet separated from the car andwas barely able to anchor the rope while I caught my breath. I finally got the bonnet high enough to roll the car out from under it and carefully lowered it to the floor and onto some HB dollies. Reinstallation is going to involve a block and tackle and more hands. It's hard to see but the rope goes over a second pulley and out the door where it is anchored to some heavy timbers. Wow! Jud



J K Chapin

I agree with Tom that posters should identify their car at the beginning but I failed to do it myself. It's TD25009 (1953) with XPAG/TD2/25404. Jud
J K Chapin

A dropped valve will cause the symptoms you mention. Have a very careful look at them to ensure they are all OK.

Also, is it at all possible that you could have sucked in a part/bolt/washer/etc.? Have you done any recent work on the intake or carbs?
Kevin McLemore

With the plugs out, look in every plug hole. Do you see the top of the pistons? Do you see a valve on top of the piston? Not too much more work to pull the head. I would do that next. If you see all is in order then pull the pan. The problem will be quite clear when you see it.
David
D. Sander

Unlikely to be a broken con rod since there are no holes in the block or sump and it would have made quite a bang if it went. Also unlikely to be the crank since the oil pressure is good (remember that the crank is drilled for oil throughout its length to feed the rod bearings). I agree with Kevin in that it is most likely something floating around in the combustion chamber, if not then maybe a timing chain problem.
Hugh Pite
H.D. Pite

oooh! Timing chain. But if it were the chain woud the valve train have moved up and down during that half rotation? Can the chain cover be pulled for inspection without pulling the head or the engine?

Looks like the approach will be check the timing chain then pull the head then drop the pan and if all that fails pull the engine. Sound reasonable? You guys are great. Thanks for your help and continuing suggestions. Jud

J K Chapin

I would pull the cylinder head. I think that you have dropped a valve and it's keeping the engine from turning over completely. Pulling the head first is the fastest way to start troubleshooting. It's got to come off anyway.Then if the problem is further the engine out is the next move Pulling the oil pan will only show you that engine out is needed.
I have been wrenching English cars since 1947 when I had a 1938 Morris ten in high school.This has been my total business since 1967 here in Florida.
Sandy
ss sanders

If the car can be moved with the hand crank it is not a positive determination that the crank is broken. I once drove a friend's Morris Minor (948cc) for 6 miles with a crank that came out upon disassembly in two pieces. The drive was gentle and there was a severe knocking noise but it did drive. I suppose it depends on where the crank is broken.
John Quilter (TD8986)

Jud - Regarding the bonnet - I always remove the side panels first, the the top portion. Much less weight to deal with in one lift that way. Cheers - Dave
D W DuBois

I agree with Sandy - pull the head first. The timing chain is, by comparison, a heck of a lot more difficult job to R&R and frankly I don't think that's it.

I'd put good money on it being either a dropped valve, broken valve head or something which got sucked into your intake and is rattling around in there.

Now, if you have access to a fibre-optic camera you could stick it into the cylinders through the spark plug holes and have a look around before you pull the head... this may help confirm or rule out my theory before you go to all that work.

BTW, you didn't mention what work you've recently done on the car... you said you were taking it 'out for a test drive'... but why? What were you 'testing'? What had you recently changed/repaired/replaced?
Kevin McLemore

The only things I had done recently were to remove the pre-pump fuel filter, replace the fuel lines from pump to carb to carb and pull the distributor cap to try to determine the dizzy cam profile. The check ride was more just from my paranoia before embarking on any drive of significant distance.

The head will come off today and I'll report what I find. I suppose I should remove the rocker assembly and remove the pushrods (keeping them in propoer order for reinsertion) before removing the head. Is that right?

Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Remove rocker keeping the push rods and cam lifters all in correct order.
I have never seen a timing chain break. sometimes they are a little long having stretched and just clipping the timing cover,They by themselves do not make major noises.
Sandy
ss sanders

Jud,

You still going to drive over to Dillard? I'm already here with my TC so look me up if you come.

Gene
Saucier, MS
Gene Gillam

Gene, that's the sad part. Given the state of the TD I've cancelled my plans but if you (and maybe some others from this BBS) are going to be there I'll reconsiders and come in my rather boring DD. The drive would probably do wonders for my presently low psyche. Thanks.

Sandy, when I pull out the pushrods, will the cam lifters come with them? Should I remove the tappet cover to get at the lifters? Drat! The things I don't know would fill an encyclopedia.
Jud
J K Chapin

jUD,
Sorry to hear about your problems,,, the lifters will not come out with the pushrods, ,, they come out fronm the side cover..
SPW
Steve Wincze

The rocker train is off. The Ginny is removed. Radiator hoses and manifold are next. I'm I correct that the head bolts should be loosened in the reverse order of the tightening sequence shown in the WSM page A.11? Jud
J K Chapin

I just reread the WSM and it says loosen in the same order as tightening Jud
J K Chapin

Please tell us what you found under the head!
Jan Emil Kristoffersen

Jan. As soon as I know. Is there a trick to opening the drain cock at the bottom of the radiator without breaking the radiator? I assume looking down it opens counterclockwise Jud
J K Chapin

Jud - Sometimes the drain cock is frozen in place. It may be easier to remove it from the radiator or loosen the lower radiator hose to drain it. Cheers - Dave
D W DuBois

Dave. I'd just decided that removing the lower hose is the better part of valor. Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

It looks like I can remove the carbs and intake manifold as a unit by undoing the four nots holding the clamps (dogs?). Does that sound right? Thanks jud
J K Chapin

The radiator is drained and disconnected but I still have the manifolds to go. In the meantime it just dawned on me what I might find. After being stranded with the blocked fuel filter and working on the carbs on the side of the road I noticed that I was missing the finger screws that hold the K&N air cleaner covers on. Wonder if they got sucked into the intake manifold and just now found their was into a cylinder ? Film at 11. Jud
J K Chapin

Yes, the carbies can come off as a unit,,, this is where having the overflow tubes with a quick disconnect would come in handy..

SPW
Steve Wincze

They did. Had to remove the overflow banjos and the front pipe stayed with the engine. I dreaded the "dog nuts" but they unscrewed quite smoothly. Nothing for it now but to put a 1/4W on the breaker bar and start loosening head nuts. Jud
J K Chapin

Make that 5/16W. Jud
J K Chapin

OK, I give up. What's the secret to breaking the head loose from the block? Does it involve a BFH? If so, where does one apply it? Under the ledge in the tappet chest looks promising but I'll await yor experienced advice. Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

When all else fails, read the WSM. "Tap each side of the head with a hammer, using a piece of wood interposed to take the blow." Jud
J K Chapin

OK, it's loose but working alone I just can't get any leverage to pull it straight up. Can I hook a hoist to the valve cover studs and hoist it by them? Jud
J K Chapin

Normally you would turn the engine over with the plugs still in and the compression would pop a stuck one loose. But since you don't have that option... a rubber mallet or a BFH with a block of wood as an insulator.
MG LaVerne

Using a brass hammer and a block of hard wood I have it just loose but I haven't the bendover strength to pull it straight up. I may have to wait to the weekend to enlist the aid of a friend. Sometimes being a hermit has it's downsides. Jud
J K Chapin

I have used wooden shim stock from Home depot. They sell a package for a couple of dollars. slide the tip of three or four in on opposite sides and tap them in it will raise about 1/4" then add more shims and repeat.
These shims are about 10" long by 2" wide and taper up to about 1/4". Being soft wood they will not damage anything.onthe head or block.
Sandy
ss sanders

Using Sandy's suggestion of wooden shims, perhaps when you begin to get the head up a little you can stuff some rope in a couple of places crossways under the head and hoist it up that way. Just make sure you place the ropes so that the head won't slip out of your sling and damage something else.
Jim Merz

My best guess it has dropped a valve head into a cylinder. I had this happen to me last year - but at highway revs, so the piston was lost. Another S/H piston and valve had the engine back together and running sweet.

The valve that dropped it's head was No.1 exhaust. It failed through two mistakes by the engine re-builder (not me, BTW), first the head gasket was fitted back to front, and an inlet valve was used as an exhaust valve in No.1. Inlet valves are very "top hat" in shape, while exhaust valves have thick "shoulders" to carry the heat away from the hot valve head to the valve stem.

I keep the piston with embedded valve head in the workshop to remind me what some engine builders can do to you to ruin your day (or holiday in my case !).

Tony
The Classic Workshop
Black Mountain
Australia
A L SLATTERY

The culprit is revealed! It was that damned K&N air cleaner stud. Now I wonder where the other one is.

Since I've gone this far I'm planning on doing a pretty total overhaul of the engine. Check (magnaflux or whatever the latest greatest find cracks technology is) the head and get new valves and seats. New valve springs if necessary although the valves and springs look good to the untrained eye.

Pull the dizzy and find out what kind it is and either send it to Jeff or, depending on how Bud's experiment goes, install a Pertronics LS (keeping a good set of points and condenser for insurance).

All of the tappets look real good except for #8 which has just a wee bit of blemish on the cam face. I'm really thinking of going with Len's roller cam but there is the money to think of to fix something that doesn't seem broke.

Pull the block and have it and the crank checked. I may need a new #3 piston - the culprit left a little scar and all of the pistons are pretty heavily carboned up.

And, of course, all new gaskets 'cause I ruined all of them removing the head.

More pictures follow.

Jud


J K Chapin

Looks like the little begger got squshed between the piston and the cylinder head or a valve. Jud


J K Chapin

How I got the head off - this photo and the next one. On the dizzy side I put a spreader bar between the ginny bracket and the under lip of the head and applied upward pressure so that as I worked the carb side I wouldn't lose what little progress I'd made.


J K Chapin

On the carb side I gently applied a pry bar and, folowing Sandy's and Jim's advice, ensured no loss of progress by inserting ever thicker would shims. After I got the head up about 1/2" I was able to just barely lift it off the studs and onto the bench where it's currently reasting peacefully.


J K Chapin

Just two more. This one 'cause I'm just the teeniest bit proud of my pushrod rack.


J K Chapin

This one 'cause I just can't believe this is right. the pic is of my radiator bypass fitting. When I pulled off the hose I found the bore plugged up with a bold. Surely that would impede the flow of water. Am I safe in assuming that this is a DPO stunt? Jud


J K Chapin

Lastly and most importantly, I want to thank all of you for your suggestions and encouragement during this somewhat trying day. Y'all are wonderful!

Jud
J K Chapin

Nice work Jud.
Now you a Expert :)

Having gone this far into it - doing the rest seems the right way to go and know all will is in order for sure.

How did the K&N screw get in there?

Rod
Rod Jones

I'm glad you found it, Jud. Now, given my earlier comment:

"I'd put good money on it being either a dropped valve, broken valve head or *something which got sucked into your intake and is rattling around in there*."

...umm ...what do I win? ;)

Seriously, glad it worked out for you. Doesn't look like there's any major damage, so perhaps you might just give it a de-coke and a light valve job and button it back up. Unless you're really dying to rebuild your motor, of course. But I really don't think, given what I see, that it's warranted.
Kevin McLemore

Rod, see my thread in the archives: Float Bowl Needle Valve. What I thought was a stuck needle valve was, as Dave Duboise (I'm sure I mangled that spelling) correctly predicted, as a badly plugged pre-pump fuel filter. Anyway, after dismantling the carbs on the side of the road several times I drove it stumbling and bumping with the air cleaner covers off but (I didn't know) with the studs in the base plates. Hopefully the stud in the front carb just fell on the ground but it seems the one in the rear carb took a trip through intake land.

Kevin, I'm inclined to agree. What aint broke don't need fixin'. Jud
J K Chapin

Okay, Jud, next question - what does the #3 combustion chamber look like? A lot of your problems may be solved by just reassembling the engine 'by the book' with fresh, clean parts. What's the engine No.? Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud, it's TD25009 (1953) with XPAG/TD2/25404. I'm going to inspect the combustion chamber in the head in the morning with good light. There is a small scar on the top of the #3 piston that may be just in the coke. I hope it will scrape off.

I don't really have any burning desire to pull the block or put in fancy upgrades to things that have worked for 60 years and are still working. My oil pressure is fair (60# starting on cool mornings and 40# once warmed up). Is there any other way to tell if the bottom end is good other than pulling the block and looking at it?

I do need all new hardware (Tom Lange I think but I get the Toms confused) and hoses from the radiator to the head and all the gaskets that are in the Moss catelog so it's already a bit of a project. Should I jsut scrape the coke off the top of the pistons with a steel chisel?

Thanks.

Jud
J K Chapin

Jud - in line with What aint broke don't need fixin' Don't be too quick on asking for hardened valve seats in the head. If the existing seats are not worn down to the point that the valves are sinking into the head, just have the machine shop touch them up. Ask them for their assessment of the seats. As John Brickel found out coming back to Washington State from Colorado, there is no iron clad that the new seats will stay in place. John is also doing an engine rebuild as a result, plus a flat bed truck ride the last half of his return trip. Cheers - Dave
D W DuBois

To Jud and all the 'lil helpers, this string has been terrific reading this past hour. Seeing the problem then the solutions unfold bets watching a 'soapy". Sorry you'll miss a few months driving but great to know the forum reaaly works.
Cheers to you all (y'all)

Kev S TF6288
K Simonsen

Jud,
WELL DONE !!!!! This has been one of the most interesting threads I have read on this (fine) forum!!! Thanks for the "blow by blow" updates!!
.
I think Lens "stuff" would be an excellent addition as long as you will have it all apart already.. Yes, it does cost a few more $$, but I think it would be worth it in the long run,,,
.
Combine that with Tom's "stuff" and you should have a bullet ptoof assembly!!!And don't forget aluminizing the exhaust manifold,,,
Steve
Steve Wincze

If the bore is undamaged and the piston top fairly clean (no deep gashes or cracks), I would just do the valve job, check the head for straightness, replace the head studs with Tom's, also get one of his SS thermostats, check/rebuild rocker shaft and put it back together. A full rebuild will likely end up $5K plus. No steel chisel, that will scratch the pistons! Use something like a hard plastic paint scraper or putty knife. Stupid design to allow that screw to fall in. In high school I worked in a bike shop that sold the short lived 2 stroke Indians. Same thing would happen- the air cleaner center bolt would get sucked in, except it would end up in the bottom of the crankcase and the crank would smash it through the engine case. George
George Butz

Jud,

Take a break, you've found the problem and it doesn't seem too bad so come on over and enjoy the day. Looking forward to meeting you and hearing your tale.

Gene
Gene Gillam

I'll be happy to help with any fasteners; see mgtrepair.net

I have had one customer with a total supercharger failure because he did not secure the stud on his S+H air filter with lock-tite (despite being warned). There is so much vibration in these engines that anything attached to the carbs that CAN be sucked in, should be secured.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Gene, I'll be there.
Tom L, I'll be in touch.
Thanks all. I think I'll leave the bottom alone, have the head and valves inspected and refurbished as needed and put it back together. Does anybody know what's included in the Moss head gasket set 297-308?
My head mics to3.007" but the rocker towers sit on 0.058" shims. Do I need two head gaskets (Moss suggestion) or a thick copper gasket or just the stock gasket?
Jud
J K Chapin

Jud,
Just read this thread for the first time. Now that you found the problem I have only a few things to add from one novice to another.

Last winter I had the engine apart but still in the car.
Cleaned the carbon ridge off the top inner edge of the cylinders.
Honed the cylinders.
Got a valve spring compression tool and removed, cleaned and replaced the valves.
Replaced all the pistons and rings.
Other items also.
My point is that there is much you can do without removing the engine.

With respect to the bonnet see my You Tube Video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT_LjYRYMqY

Let me know if you need any tools etc.

Mort



Mort 50 TD

Jud, I'd have to look, but I believe de-coking (in the US we call it 'de-carbonizing') the MG engine is explained in the workshop manual. However, here's my own method, briefly explained:

1) Raise the piston to top-dead-center (as high as it will go) by rotating the crank slowly.

2) Use a paper towel to *blot* any oil from the piston crown and surrounding block area (do not rub). Do not use solvents. Just dry up any wet areas.

3) Drape paper towels or rags over the cylinders you're not working on to prevent bits from falling into the bores or block.

4) Get some modelling clay and roll it into a thin ribbon about 1/8" thick and stick it down *gently* such that it covers the gap between the block and the piston - this will prevent swarf from dropping into the gap. The clay will cover the piston slightly and that's OK - you want to leave a small bit of the carbon on the piston crown around the edge - 1/8" to 1/16" is fine. [If you happen to have a spare piston ring laying around - most folks don't - you can lower the piston slightly in the bore and insert the ring to block the gap.]

5) Get a GOOD razor-blade scraper (with a NEW blade at the ready for each cylinder). Using a low-angle of attack, gently scrape the carbon off the piston. If the blade hangs up don't force it - just attack it from another direction. Avoid digging scrapes or gouges into the surface of the aluminium piston crown. In general, work from the edges into the centre where possible. You don't have to get the crown down to bare shiny metal - just removing the crispy bits is fine - the object is to leave a reasonably smooth surface.

6) Use a good vacuum to suck up the chips as you go along. Once you're done with that particular piston give it a very thorough vacuuming, using your hand or a small brush to free up any remaining bits.

7) Moisten (not drench!) a cloth with some mineral spirits, or any mild petro-solvent, and wipe off the crown until it's clean. Avoid the clay-covered rim as it will likely dissolve it.

8) Remove the clay and discard. If any remains you can lightly remove it with the moistened cloth.

9) Vacuum again to ensure nothing dropped into the gap.

10) Move to the next piston, rotating the engine until that piston is at TDC and repeat the above steps until all 4 cylinders are clean.
Kevin McLemore

Mort, I followed your thread on replacing your pistons with fear and trepidation that someday I might have to go there. You're a far better mechanic that I am so I'm going to go with Kevin's technique and keep the pistons that are there unless I uncover something bad during the de-coking. I know I should go your route but I'm just too squeamish to take it on at this time. Next winter when I have the lift installed and can use the existing overhead hoist in my other building I plan on pulling the engine, sacrificing all those shiney new gaskets I'm buying now and doing a more thorough job of it.

This thread is getting really long but my adventure has really only just started. I have more picture and many more questions so y'all tell me if I shoud start a new thread. In the meantime, here's a pic of the combustion chambers. It does not appear to me that the culprit did any damage to the head. I'll take the head to a good machine shop and have it checked out and refurbed as needed.

Jud


J K Chapin

This, however, does cause me a bit of concern. The pictures is the bearing surfaces of tappets 5, 6, 7 and 8 (8 being closet to the firewall). 5, 6 and 7 along with 1, 2, 3 and 4 not shown look really good but 8 shows some fairly deep pitting. My preference is to put off installing Lens roller cam until next year but I'd values y'all's opinion on the likelihood of this tappet or the camshaft failing in the near future.

Thanks.

Jud


J K Chapin

That head looks great, Jud. I've seen things get sucked in many times and rarely does it result in enough damage to require piston replacement. Even a few dings in the crown of the piston are fine... just make sure any rough edges are gently smoothed off. One thing to remember on reassembly, though, is cleanliness is Godliness - the cleaner you are on assembly, the less problems you'll have. Oh, and resist with all your might the urge to resurface the head... check it VERY carefully with a straight edge and feeler gauges to see if it's flat - if so, don't touch it. These heads are getting harder and harder to find that haven't had huge slices taken off of them, and most of the time resurfacing was totally unnecessary. Good luck, and keep posting any questions - we'll all be glad to help!
Kevin McLemore

As for the lifers, yeah, that's not great, but you'd be surprised how long an engine will run with that level of spalling. Indeed, it's probably been running like that for years now and you could probably just pop them back in and keep running for several more years to come with no ill effects.

That being said, if you're at all squeamish about it you could just pop the lifters into a mailing bag and send them to Delta Cams - they'll resurface the lifters and re-Parkerize them and they'll come back ready to do another 50,000 miles. Delta does a great job (at least they have for me, many times over) and their turn-around time is usually pretty quick... ask them before sending them. And make sure to plop plenty of reassembly lube on them when you put them back in.
Kevin McLemore

Thanks Kevin. I'm feelong better about this whole episode. Jud
J K Chapin

The only thing I would add to Kevin's most useful post above is that the very last thing you want to do is scratch or gouge the piston top. I use a hardwood stick to remove the carbon build-up, and, like Bon-Ami, it hasn't scratched yet. Using a piece of hard metal on an aluminum piston is a recipe for hot spots.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

I agree, Tom. I use very sharp razor blade and a low angle of attack and I've never had an issue, but then I've done this many dozens of times now and I've got good at it and I feel it does a more complete and easier job of it. But you're right that it may be more wise for a beginner (or even an experienced person) to use a wooden or plastic scraper to avoid any issues. That being said, if one does nick a crown you can dress it back down with some fine wet-or-dry sandpaper or some crocus cloth, then wipe up any debris with a solvent-moistened cloth.
Kevin McLemore

Jud if you do decide to use the high lift cam & roller lifters whatever you do don't fit the oversize (larger diameter) valve springs. The correct springs are available from Performance Springs in Brisbane. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I do a bit of woodworking so I have pieces of oak lying around. This morning I did a test scrape on the top of #4 piston and the coke just scraped off down to dare metal. This afternoon I'll do them all following Kevin's procedure but using oak instead of a razor blade. I suppose I should also scrape off the inside of the combustion chambers in the head in the same manner. Right?

Tom L., I'll be contacting youo directly for gaskets, thermo housing, head bolts and whatever good products you have to offer.

Dave DuBois, I'd like to have you refurb my carburettors. I'll contact you off line for specifics.

I've got a small order of parts (pre-culprit) arriving from LBC today or tomorrow but I'm putting together a much bigger order: Gasket sets, hoses and any cooling parts (branch pipe, elbow, thermo housing {Moss 434-130 unless Tom has that} and the like.

Based on the responses above I'm going to stay with my current cam and tappets and hopefully do the Len roller cam (Peter, thanks for the info about the springs) next year.

Jud
J K Chapin

Jud. I have on my desk a new aluminium thermostat housing from Abingdon Spares. It is #07 o65A.It is complete with thermostat.
I just looked up their price $156.00. I am down sizing my goodies and I will send it to you postage included for $110.00
Sandy


ss sanders

Sandy, I'd take it gladly but I just got off the phone ordering the one Tom Lange offers.

DAave Duboise, sorry, I got my Daves confused. My fuel pump is working fine so it's Dave Braun that I will be contacting about the carburettors.

Jud
J K Chapin

No problem Jud.Tom's unit is fantastic and if I ever need one later on that will be the one.
Maybe someone else wants it.
Sandy
ss sanders

Jud, I would remove the piston to inspect the rings / ring lands, if the rings are free & not sticking you are ok. If the rings are sticking in the ring lands, the piston must be replaced.
Please contact me.
laf48@ail.com
914 420 8699
Len Fanelli

Hmm. Len, I'm not quite sure how the rings and ring lands enter into this... why should this be a problem? Maybe I'm missing something? (Wouldn't be the first time!)
Kevin McLemore

Oops laf48@aol.com
Len Fanelli

Jud, could you send me your email address? My email is as shown above. Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud, you've got mail. I'm at jchapin3 at aol dot com.
Jud
J K Chapin

On the TD are all four water outlet bolts the same length? One of mine is short and I lost track of which hole it came out of. Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Nope. See http://www.ttalk.info/Fasteners%20For%20XPAG_XPEG%20Engines.htm for Dave's list of hardware.

8 - 1mm 7/8 1/4W WATER PUMP (SHORT BOLT) (TD/TF) 1 CA1258 7-27 320-270
(TC) 2
8 - 1mm 7/8 3/16W SUMP TO BLOCK (CENTER BOLTS) 10 LA7431 3-74 320-270
8 - 1mm 7/8 3/16W SUMP TO TIMING CHAIN COVER (DEEP HEAD) 2 AAA5340 3-73 320-265
8 - 1mm 1 1/4W WATER PUMP (LONG BOLT, LOWER HOLE) (TD/TF) 1 JA5052 7-28 320-625

Bud
Bud Krueger

That was an interesting link you posted there Bud :)
Someting got changed I think...

Rod



Rod Jones

Awww, don't spoil it, Rod. I was enjoying the "Naughty Girls"!

:)
Kevin McLemore

Sorry about that. It's probably cause by the spaces in the page title. They tend to get replaced by the error-causing '%20' . I'll go and edit Dave's title by inserting hyphens. That'll bug the folks whose browsers can handle the %20. Bud
Bud Krueger

Okay, try http://www.ttalk.info/Fasteners-For-XPAG-XPEG-Engines.htm (Don't forget to refresh your browser). Bud
Bud Krueger

Kevin You are a bad bad Boy :)
Rod Jones

Well, Rod, in the words of Klaus von Bulow....

"You have no idea."

;)

Reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=nTFflehHtvI
Kevin McLemore

In preparation for cleaning the tops of the pistons and top of the block this morning I romeved the head gasket. To my surprise it is solid copper. It mics to 0.0445" and looks pretty good.

1. Should I reuse it?
2. Replace it with the conventional gasket from Moss?
3. Replace it with another copper gasket?

I'm reasonably certain that 1 is No but what about 2 and 3?

Thanks

Jud
J K Chapin

Clean it well, anneal it, clean it again and re-use it (it's made to be re-used...have 'em on mine).

Gene
Gene Gillam

How hot is anneal? Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Jud, how thick is your head? (The car's, i.e.) Bud
Bud Krueger

My bad. On cleaning the gasket I found that it is conventional copper clad something magnetic (black steel?). I'll replace it with the new one.

Bud, it mic'ed to 3.01+ (HF dial micrometer).

Jud
J K Chapin

Head off, waiting for parts, good time to change oil and filter (my first time). Many threads ago someone (Bud, Mort, Dave B or D, I can't recall) recommended the NAPA 1300 filter for the Tecalemit canister so I bought one. It comes with 3 gaskets - 2 skinny and 1 wide. Do I use any or all of these? The plate (no Moss number but between 131 & 133 on page 4) does not seem to want to come off so I can't get the oil seal (Moss 133) out. Should I try harder?

Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Jud, what Moss catalog are you referring to? My MGT-141 doesn't have a part 131 or 134 on page 4, External Engine. NAPA 1300 is correct. I seem to recall that the correct filter has blue stripes. Be certain to remove the old one. Bud
Bud Krueger

Also, my oil pan is ribbed cast AL. When I removed the drain plug there was no washer. The drain plug is brass with a big flange under the hex head. Do I need a washer? Moss part 324-800? Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Jud,

Yes, you need the washer between the plug and the pan.

Gene
Gene Gillam

Bud, sorry, I didn't realize the cage logs changed. Moss MGT-142, pegs 9, between 131 and 133. Looks like just a flat disk. Does the adapter, shines megahertz shaft about 3/4" in diameter with holes cross bored in it, unscrew to remove that disk and get to the oil seal?

Thank Gene.
Jud
J K Chapin

Does anyone have an extra oil plug washer? I love Jeff at LBC but hate to pay shipping for a 60 cent part. Would NAPA have the washer? Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

NAPA will have it Jud. Plain copper washer will do. In a pinch (no pun intended) you can use a fiber washer, and they'll have those too.
Kevin McLemore

Thanks Kevin. I'll take the plug with me to ensure that it's the right diameter.

Any thoughts on whether I need to use any of the gaskets that came with the NAPA 1300 filter (see pic) or how I can get to the oil seal to replace it with the new one I ordered from LBC?

Thanks.

Jud


J K Chapin

Yes, Jud, you'll need one (and only one) of those gaskets. It would match Moss' Part #133 435-347 on page 9. I'll look at my pre-adapter parts tomorrow to see if I kept any other parts. Bud
Bud Krueger

I included the 435-347 (oio seal) with mt LBC order. How do you get the old one out? Dental pick? Tweezers? Magic rubber magnet? Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Jud..
I use a dental pick. You will find the old seal extremely hard and brittle. Make certain that you clean it all out or it will leak for sure. Some people have tried a second seal not realizing that the old one is still there. It's deeper than you think. Go fishing and good luck.
Sandy
P.S. If you find a ruber magnet it's mine as I lost it somewhere.
ss sanders

A good archive item. Some folks are more clever than others. Bud
Bud Krueger

Well, who'd of thunk it. Tweezers were the right answer. Came out clean and intact. Jud
J K Chapin

Don't forget to thoroughly rinse out the oil filtre canister before installing the new filtre... you want to get any swarf or debris out of there - it should be spotless inside when you reinstall it.
Kevin McLemore

Jud if you're into such things you could take the opportunity to repaint the Tecalemit canister the correct colour. Details on Chris Couper's site. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Jud,
While you are this far, why not make the change to a modern spin off/on filter??? Less expensive, and much easier to change,,

Steve
Steve Wincze

Steve, I just read Bud's spin-off article on TTalk and a spin-off adapter is in my near future. Peter, I painted the canister the same color as the valve cover - not original but it looks nice and a lot better that the red. I made an amatuer (I am one) error and don't think I got the surface absolutely clean before paining so the paint may not stick. I'll probably end up have to strip it again and redo it but at least now I know how.

Jud
J K Chapin

Going against conventional wisdom, I don't change the gasket for the oil filter unless it has been leaking. When we first got our TD and I changed the filter, the existing gasket was hard as a rock and I thought there was no gasket in the slot and for whatever reason, I didn't add a gasket. We drove the car for 6 or 7 years and I never put a gasket in that slot and never had any leak around it. When restoring the car, I found that there was, in fact a petrified gasket in the slot, which I dutifully removed and when putting the engine together I installed a new gasket with the thickest gasket of the three in the box (the wrong one!). The result was a gasket failure on the road and a couple of spun rod bearings. Since then I wound that the proper gasket is the middle thickness and made sure that it was properly seated in the groove and have not changed it since and I have never had a leak at that point. Cheers - Dave
D W DuBois

Makes me think I might put the old gasket (looks pretty good) back in. Wish I could remember which way it was facing. Jud
J K Chapin

Jud, that shouldn't make any difference. It probably has a groove in it from the canister. Any chance you could measure the height and thickness of the one that's in there? Looked at my bag of filter pieces and the only loose parts are two large disks and the Moss #131 Adapter. The other parts are still up in the canister. Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud, the NAPA 1300 came with, as I believe you know, three gaskets. The dimensions (I'm confident that precision far exceeds accuracy with these numbers), thick is radial, wide is longitudinal, are:

NAPA Yellow - Blue, 0.073" thick by 0.1525" wide;
NAPA Yellow - Yelow, 0.505" thick by 0.110" wide;
NAPA Plain - 0.1035" thick by 0.1075" wide;
Unknown Old Gasket, 0.13" thick by 0.146" wide.

Assuming the canister squshed the old gasket to significantly thicker than it started out to be, ot appears that the Blue - Yellow may be the best replacement. I should be receiving my order from LBC tomorrow or Thursday. It includes the Moss oil seal. I'll measure it and post those measurements for comparison. The gasket closest to you on top of the others is the old gasket.
Jud


J K Chapin

It has been a while, but I think you want the widest O ring.
David
D. Sander

Jud, I used to have a habit of throwing the unused gaskets in a particular spot in a parts drawer. (Just couldn't throw them away. It's the Scottish blood from my Mother's side.) Today I looked in that drawer and found three with two yellow marks and three with no color marks. I suspect that the yellow & blue one was what I used. But, I wouldn't bet the engine on it. Bud
Bud Krueger

As soon as the head comes back from the machine shop and parts start coming in I'm going to start a sequel to this thread called "Installing the Head on a TD" or some such thing. That's when I'll also be installing the oil filter and putting in fresh oil. Please remind me then to run it in the garage and check for leaks before heading out for a joy ride.

One of the first questions I'll have is whether to install the new head gasket dry of with some kind of sealant. I did not detect any signs of any sealant on the old head gasket so I'm guessing put the new one in dry. Opinions and suggestions continue to be welcome. Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Just got the word from the machine shop. Head and valves OK, installing new valve guides and seals, under $400, ready for pick-up next Wednesday. I'm a happy camper.

Tom Lang's parts from just around the bend from Thunder Hole in Acadia Park on Mt. Desert Island, ME, arrived. The new parts (thermo housing, head bolt studs and Roadster Gaskets) are, of course, superb. The couple of used parts are in great condition. Thanks Tom.

Jud
J K Chapin

Good news on that head. Might want to ask if the shop can install Teflon rubber seals ("top hat seals") on the intake valves to prevent future leaking and oil burning.
Kevin McLemore

A retraction: It just dawned on me that I may have been giving K&N a bad rap. The air cleaners on my TD are the ones from Moss (page 26, P/N 223-100). Except for the possibility of sucking in the center cover mounting stud, I think they are fine air cleaners but they do not indicate anywhere that they are K&N. The covers for the K&N air filters on the same page appear to be held in place by two diametrically opposed screws.
Jud
J K Chapin

They are copies of the Stelling and Hellings filters popular in the 50's, but are differently constructed. They don't filter very well. The central retaining stud can and does come loose, and can and does get sucked into the engine or supercharger. Use thread locking sealant - ask my customer who toasted a new supercharger in that way...

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

I threw away the Stellings and Hellings filters on my TF for a pair of original Vokes. Remarkable effect on breathing and power.

I belong to the people that have lost almost all oil in a five miles drive after changig the standard oil filter . Luckily a sympathetic motorcyclist signaled to make me pull over, as I was marking my trail with a fine line of engine oil. Engine saved, and spin-on filter installed. The old set up is a real risk IMHO.

regards,

Jan
Jan Emil Kristoffersen

I also had an oil filter gasket failure,,,The original canister housing cut through the gasket,, resulting in rapid loss of oil,, luckily, I was backing up and noticed the trail of leaking oil,,, Spin on is the way to go!!!!

SPW
Steve Wincze

iS THIS IT ????
Steve Wincze

This thread was discussed between 16/09/2014 and 10/10/2014

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.