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MG TD TF 1500 - MG TD Steering wheel

I just bought an OEM banjo steering wheel with no cracks, splits or missing pieces. Does anyone know what the original rim material was? Was it bakelite? I would like to treat it with something to prevent future deterioration. I read you shouldn't use cleaners on it, but boiled linseed oil is ok. Some plastics off gas and shouldn't be sealed.
Mike
TD15250


Mike I

I relied on the other forum - it's celluloid.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Thanks for the info. Taking the material celluloid further, there are two points I'd like to question. I have read that "The earliest form of Celluloid was highly flammable, so in 1927 the nitrocellulose and camphor were removed and replaced by vinegar (making it less flammable)". Since the MG T's were produced way after that date, wouldn't they be free of camphor and nitrates? Also, if the original wheels that have already begun to crack with age are restored by filling with epoxy, etc, wouldn't they continue to crack in a very short time making that restoration short lived?
Mike
TD15250
Mike I

Read the description of celluloid in Wikipedia - it covers the subject well. I saw it being made at BXL (British Xylonite Ltd)- I was technically responsible for some of the products made there back in the 1970s, though not celluloid.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Dave
You obviously are very knowledgable on the subject and I appreciate your information. According to my research, I think the change made to cellulose nitrate they are referring to is cellulose acetate which uses acetic acid as the plasticiser which migrates to the surface as a vinegary smell as opposed to camphor. So you're right it's not celluloid.
Which brings me to my original quest, what can I use to maintain it. Without extensive testing for a sealer that works as you pointed out, will the use of something simple like boiled linseed oil, wax or a product like Armor All have a good or bad effect on its life? Will there be any negative chemical reaction?
Thanks Dave,
Mike
Mike I

Wax polish seems safest.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Dave,
You've been a great help. Thanks for your time and knowledge. I'll put some wax on it and enjoy it.
Mike
Mike I


I would be concerned about using wax, armer all or any slippery product on the steering wheel.

I know that doesn't help with your question, sorry.
G D

Try Bowling Alley wax, it protects with a hard surface and has a non slip texture. Takes a little elbow grease to apply and polish out. I always used Butchers brand, not sure if it's still available. PJ
PJ Jennings

Thanks for the followup comments guys. I'm going to use bowling alley wax and hope the plastic rim lasts awhile.
Mike
Mike I

Just wanted to followup on the status of my steering wheel. In my research I discovered the following:
Cellulose Nitrate CN - discovered in 1845 - smells like camphor
Cellulose Acetate CA - discovered in 1865 - smells like vinegar
Cellulose Acetate Propionate CAP - discovered in 1937 - smells like burnt sugar
Cellulose Acetate Butyrate CAB - discovered in 1938 - smells like vomit
Both CAP and CAB were widely used for steering wheels in the 40's and 50's. Using the smell test I concluded my wheel is CAB. This formula produced a stronger and more water resistant plastic than the older CN or CA which was more susceptible to outgassing of the plasticizer and subsequent shrinking, cracking and deterioration with age. Although this deterioration is delayed as compared to CN and CA, it is inevitable and if treated properly may last beyond our lifetime.
So with your advice I used Scotch Brite to dry clean the surface of the rim of dirt and scratches and applied two coats of the closest thing I could find to bowling alley wax. I also used Simichrome to clean and polish the spoke rods. Really came out great. The next job is to spray the hub the same bronze color as the instrument panel.
Thanks again
Mike
TD15250
Mike I

Very informative. Hope your nose survives. :-)
Christopher Couper

I have worked on the surfaces of original TD,TF and early Morris Minor
steering wheels over the years. For each TF an original, non cracked wheel
was affixed to the steering column after attention to the surface.

By use of mill second cut files to eradicate those pesky 'ring' scrapes,
then wet/dry abrasive paper through the grades followed by judicious
light buffing ( I use the green soap) with a pedestal buff , the surface
comes back like a new one ! No need to apply any surface wax, sprays etc.

I have not yet seen a repro. wheel with the correct colour plus a faint swirl through the rim material. I have also observed some of the plastic repro wheels turning a slight 'pinkish' hue over time.

I now however know why they smell like vomit,always wondered about that !!
This smell is only really evident when the wheel is stored in say, a cardboard box for an extended period.

Original TC black coloured wheels were quite flimsy with only three(3) flat spokes. Many TCs have been re fitted later with the more robust,non original multi spoked Bluemels type wheel .

Many of the TD/TF wheels have a month and year dating lightly stamped in them. Look carefully at the surface and one will see it.

I suspect these steering wheels were produced by Wilmot Breden or Bluemels in UK during the late forties and fifties. ?

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Athos"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Ok, going to open another can of worms on this one.

Did the TD have two different colors for their steering wheels. I have seen ones like Rob posted, that are all one color. I have also seen ones that have a brown/tan marbling in them. My TDs steering wheel is very cracked. I have had a leather cover on it for 44 years, but it does have some traces of marbling. Mine is a late 1950 build (Nov 1 1950) TD 4139
Bruce Cunha

Rob....Your comments set me looking further for manufacturers markings. In the center hub I found a number 7'2727'4 with "Birmingham" just above it. Along side it is a logo with a "WB" and a lion. Further research found this marking to be the Wilmot Breeden Ltd company in Birmingham UK which made, among many other parts, steering wheels for British cars in the early fifties. I also found a 1952 ad shown below.
My rim is ivory with very faint marbleizing. On the rim I found the numbers "08" stamped near one of the spokes.
So I know it was made by The Wilmot Breeden Ltd company, but I can't decipher the meaning of the numbers. The numbers in the hub are separated by small slashes,
7(slash)2727(slash)4. Any Ideas?
Mike
TD15250



Mike I

My steering wheel feels infinitely better than an original and isn't too hard to turn. Apart from lacking marbelling I think it looks very "correct".

Cheers

Jan T


J Targosz

This is my wheel after I restored it, it was in pretty bad shape, a lot of cutting out the bad and replacing it with epoxy filler. PJ



PJ Jennings

Another pic.



PJ Jennings

Showed backwards, but this was in the beginning.



PJ Jennings

Bruce: Originally all were marbled in a sort of light iridescent tan. Later Moss made ones which were marbled but more brown/white and no iridescence.
Christopher Couper

This one belonged to a long retired orthopedic surgeon. He litteraly used body filler from his practice to to repair his.


L E D LaVerne

Does anyone have a pic or pics of an original steering wheel in pristine, unadulterated condition, showing colour & marbling? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Closest I can do is this TC Brooklands wheel.


L E D LaVerne

I tried repairing my steering wheel with the type of body filler used for plastic bumper bars and whilst it looked great when painted, unfortunately it didn't after being left in the sun. I found the filler just doesn't stick to celluloid. I decide to recast the entire rim in epoxy resin and at the same time reduce the diameter by about two inches and slightly thicken the rim. The results looks very much like an original and perhaps in a TF even better. Wood rim wheels look great in a MGA but not in a T Series. I tried to achive a marbelled effect by colouring thixotropic resin without stirring but it wouldn't flow into my mould. I suspect original wheels were made by pressure casting. I know of pre war MG owners repairing their steering wheels using a filler made of 78 rpm records dissolved in acetone but I think TD / TF wheels are a different sort of plastic.

Jan T
J Targosz

Old 78s were made from Shellac with a mineral filler and would dissolve in solvents like methanol or acetone. Later records are vinyl and either might be good for repairing some types of steering wheel, as a range of materials have been used by different manufacturers. TD/TF steering wheels were definitely cellulosic - I think Celluloid CN (Cellulose nitrate plus camphor), but could be CAB or CAP. Back in 1980 I worked for a plastics business that still made Celluloid - mainly for covering musical instruments. It was the only material that could give those wonderful tortoiseshell and pearlised patterns back then (and probably still is). I looked back at old GB patents filed by Bluemels (and there are many), but they just refer to celluloid or similar material. The Wilmot Breeden patents are even less specific. One way to firm up on this would be to burn some of the material after stripping it from a wheel rim. CN will burn very well indeed, whereas the others will burn reluctantly.
Dave H
Dave Hill

LED La Verne:

This struck me as about the grossest comment I have seen to date.

"This one belonged to a long retired orthopedic surgeon. He litteraly used body filler from his practice to to repair his. "

The connotations of this statement still rattle me. :-)
Christopher Couper

Sorry Chris, but thats what he told me. It was the same material that they used to to reform missing bone. I can attest to his skills personally as he surgically repaired my elbow when I was 15 and it works pretty good......not so much on the steering wheel :-)
L E D LaVerne

Paul, what type of paint did you use on your steering wheel rebuild?

Mark
Mark Strang

I have attached a photo taken of a steering wheel that I have that shows the numbers of the back of the rim. I am not absolutely certain that this wheel came from my TD (16504 - came ass'y line 26-May-1952) - since I did not take the car apart - even tho' I've owned it since the summer of 1968. The steering wheel hub has "72727'4" stamped on the inside. I have another steering wheel that is in really rough shape - rim-wise - and I'm uncertain as to which one is original to the car. It has no numbers stamped inside the hub and no discernible numbers stamped on the rim.

I'm not sure what the numbers on the back of the rim mean - "... 25 ... then a space ... than a 4 followed by what might have been and 8(?) or a 9(?). It would not seem to be a date?

Peter Hehir had asked for a picture of a relatively unadulterated wheel - maybe this will help. The colour in the pic that I have posted is quite close to the actual colour of the wheel (in my opinion) and the marbling shows also.


Charlie King
TD16504




C. G. King

If you're not adverse to covering the wheel for protection from the sun and for a different look you could consider one of the high quality leather lace on wheel covers. Properly done they look quite handsome and are not slippery Be advised it takes a good hour to properly lace one on though. Here's one on a Morris Minor. They may come in tan as well.


John Quilter (TD8986)

Questions for Jan T. I really like the look of your wheel, how did you reduce the diameter, and how did you make the mould to cast the epoxy rim? Thanks, Graeme
Graeme Fisher

Charlie....If you read the thread, I have the same hub numbers on mine. It seems the only guy who may have the answer is Rob Grantham but he seems to have abandoned the thread. Maybe he'll check back.
Mike
TD15250
Mike I

My TF wheel on top of a couple of others that I have acquired.

Matthew.


M Magilton

Wide range of colours there Matthew. Was there just one colour originally? Or was it like most other parts that came from a number of different suppliers? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

It appears that Wilmot Breeden Ltd was around at least in to the 1970's. Brothers Breeden were alive in 1967. Perhaps our UK folks could do some looking to see if any of the records or even workers are still around that may be able to assist in finding out exactly what was used for the steering wheels and how their process worked?
Bruce Cunha

According to Grace’s Guide they lasted until 1977, when the remnants were acquired by Rockwell Standard. However the main interest there seems to have been in their electronics business, formerly Ferrograph, so I assume that the automotive interest just faded away, as did much of the UK motor industry.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Peter, the brown rim 'could' be TD, but since it came on its own I could be wrong. Pretty sure the grey one is Morris (Minor?) Note the TF rim roughly matches the hub and the TF instrument panel.

Matthew.


M Magilton

Mark, Sorry for not getting back sooner. I used two thin coats of lacquer primer, 3 thin coats of the dash paint Moss used to sell and 3 coats of clear coat. That was 5 years ago and the paint still looks the same, but hardly noticeable hairline cracks have appeared where the spokes enter the rim. The wheel still looks nice though, even if it's not the original color. Replaced with a Brooklands wheel, it's just wall art now. PJ
PJ Jennings

Here's a steering wheel that the guy claims is original. http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?42,3606641

Tim
Tim Burchfield

Matthews is spot on. Notice also that his center hub color is darker than the wheel.

Matthew how do you feel the color of your center hub matches the instrument panel? Looks like it might be a bit darker which is what I expect.
Christopher Couper

Tim....That's the one I bought and is pictured in the beginning of this thread which I started! It's got the original stamping on the rim and the Wilmot Breeden logo in the hub. Sometimes a thread gets so long you miss the origin of it.
Mike
TD15250
Mike I

This item was pulled from EBay by the seller as there was supposedly an error in the listing. It doesn't say what the error was. His description appears below. He makes two claims. One - it is original - the other - it was not restored. Cheers
Peter TD 5801


THIS IS AN ORIGINAL WITH NO CRACKS, IVORY COLOR.
THIS STEERING WHEEL IT WAS NOT RESTORED.
ORIGINAL MG TD TF steering wheel manufactured early 50´s

In TO RESTORED CONDITION this steering wheel it was in a private collection of many years and not in a car or at use. IT IS VERY RARE TO FIND ONE ORIGINAL.
Price is according to rarity and previous sales prices, market price.
If you have any questions please message me

Thank you for watching.
P Hehir

Peter...It was pulled from eBay because I bought it from eBay.
Mike
TD15250
Mike I

Chris, slightly darker, could be down to slightly different paints and suppliers and ageing?
(Note that the plastic/Bakelite cover has been repainted).

Matthew.


M Magilton

Mike, I'm just posting what was stated on EBay. The complete text stating that the listing had ended read:


This listing was ended by the seller because there was an error in the listing.

Details about MG TD STEERING WHEEL ALL ORIGINAL BANJO VOLANTE LENKRAD OEM RARE IVORY See original listing
MG-TD-STEERING-WHEEL-ALL-ORIGINAL-BANJO-VOLANTE-LENKRAD-OEM-RARE-IVORY

Item Ended
Item condition:
Used

“VERY RARE USED TO BE RESTORED”
Ended:
30 Oct, 2017 13:58:03 AEDST
Starting bid:
GBP 1.00
Approximately AU $1.73
[ 0 bids ]
Postage:
GBP 25.00 Standard Postage
Item location:
Cascais, Portugal
Seller:
classicarpart (822 )
Seller's other items

Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

Peter...That's odd because I did buy it on eBay as advertised and it was in great condition. Except for minor flaws, it did have all the original Wilmot Breeder markings on the rim and hub.
Mike
Td15250
Mike I

This thread was discussed between 12/12/2017 and 18/01/2018

MG TD TF 1500 index

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