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MG TD TF 1500 - MG TD/C 18050 INFO

Hi Everyone! I have been reading the site for quite a while now and have really enjoyed it. I was hoping to get any additional information you all might have on a TD that my father has owned for the past 45+ years. Unfortunately he passed away last year and now, hopefully, I will be able to remember him by having his old car restored! Below is much of the info that I have acquired by reading the site.

Engine ID Plate - NO 22250, Type XPAG TD2
Chassis ID Plate - Car No. TD/C 18050 EXL/NA, Engine No. XPAG/TD3/17895
Body ID Plate - Body Type 22381, Body No. 17402/89512
I believe this puts the build date @ July 10, 1952. Does this mean it is a 52'? I'm not sure is there is a delay from the build date to dated car.

I was under the impression that it might be a MarkII but the Engine ID Plate(TD2) has a different XPAG Type than the Chassis ID Plate(TD3). Is this supposed to be "numbers matching"? I can confirm that the hood has the pop out for the engine, the 2nd pump is missing but there are holes in the firewall, I cannot confirm the shocks as the car is still at my mother house, the carbs do not look like they are larger than normal. Could there be a possibility that the engine was swapped for a nonmark II or am I missing something?

Any additional info would be greatly appreciated!

-Scott



SCG Scott

Welcome aboard, Scott. I'm sure that you will be hearing from Tom Lange, our MKII expert. Sounds as if your original MKII (TD3) engine was replaced. M.G. didn't have model years, but changes were made throughout the years that models were made. Bud
Bud Krueger

Thanks for the warm welcome Bud.

I actually emailed Tom also because I wasn't sure his preference. He quickly returned my mail with the below:

"Scott - glad to help; I'm so sorry you have lost your father.

You do already know a great deal about your car! It is a mid-range car, 18050 out of about 30,000 cars, and should have the TD3 engine. Yes, it was common to swap engines out when they needed a rebuild, when a junkyard engine was cheaper and much easier. These cars were every-day driven cars, and nobody thought they would even be special and collected, ! For your information, your engine originally came in TD21844. Your car does indeed appear to be a genuine Mark II or TD/C car. In general, my feeling is that a non-original engine deducts about a thoousand dollars of value.

I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have, but have to attend to some other things right now. let me know if I can help in any way at all.

Tom"




SCG Scott

So it sounds like the engine was replaced at some point. whomp whomp. Maybe even my dad did the replacement back in the day, I'm not sure. I'm guessing it is pretty much impossible to find the original engines.

I know quite a few things go into determining the value of the car, but would anyone have a guess at what it might be worth as it sits? I think my mom would like to know, just for knowing sake. I do not plan on letting her sell it. I know Tom said that not having the original engine would take the price down about 1k.

We had it running about 15 years ago but we were not actually driving it. I think there was an issue with the breaks. I'm not sure what we got distracted with but it just got pushed right back in the garage after we had it running. As long as I have known it (28+ years) it has been garage stored. If anyone wants anymore info I will share as much as I know.

I am planning on going to the local MG Car Club show in Raleigh, NC on the 16th of May. Hoping that they might be a good resource for me to have also.

Thanks in advance for all of the help!



SCG Scott

Scott.
Welcome to our world.
That is one sharp looking survivor and if it was mine I would clean it up with a deep buffing and wax. Then do whatever mechanicals it will take to make it safe on the road.
If you follow this motto all will be well
USE-ENJOY-BUT PRESERVE.
Please do not change the sequence.
If you need help please feel free to contact me.
Sandy
SANDY

I couldn't agree more with Sandy. That car looks great "as is." Clean it up and do the mechanicals (Remember - "SAFTEY Fast!" Emphasis on Safety) and it will be more valuable than one that is "frame-up" restored. JMHO. Jud
J K Chapin

I second the motion. buff her out and fix the mechanicals, engine brakes carbs tranny and drive it. If you figure on hiring a shop to restore, you may be looking at over 25-30 K. depending on who does it. lots of help here on the BBS and lots of cars out there in your area. people on this board love to give advice and help out with whatever problem you may have..
TRM Maine

Scott, Tom's $1,000 reduction comment needs not to be taken literally. If the car were a MKII with its original engine it would have a higher value than a not-MKII car. The engine swap just lowers the car's value to something closer to a TD2 in the same condition. Bud
Bud Krueger

Thanks Sandy, Jud, and TRM for the advice. I am definitely not planning any type of "frame-up" restoration in the the near future. Just like you said, I am hoping to get all of the mechanicals up and working well and then I will worry about the rest. There is some surface rust in a few places, like in front of the radiator(picture), but all in all I don't think it is in too bad of shape. I'm guessing I can just go at the outside with the usual hand wash car wash and water? There wouldn't be anything that I would have to be careful with would there? Anything to make sure that I don't get wet? Would it be OK to give under the hood a good wash too?

Bud, thanks for the clarification. I would have expected the price to decline without the original engine. Hopefully it still has a little bit of uniqueness being that the body is a MarkII. I guess all of this is null being that the fact is that I do not plan on selling any time soon.

Thanks again. Any other recommendations/ideas on where to start are always welcome and appreciated.


SCG Scott

You need to be very sure in your own mind just what you want out of the car. And keep a pad right by the car to keep a list of parts you definitely need, parts you think you need, and parts you need to find out about.

I would start with the engine, cleaning the carbs, replacing radiator hoses (with the exception of the top hose, cut your own out of NAPA hose), plugs and points, check distributor cap, changing engine oil and filter. Drain out any old gas and check (replace) the flexible fuel lines. With the plugs out be sure you have spark, and see if the fuel pump(s) works with fresh gas, and then stops ticking (means the carbs are getting gas). You will absolutely need to get oil pressure before you start the engine - see the archives for much information on that. Then try to start, but be sure to check oil pressure always - there's nothing worse than ruining an engine because it has no oil pressure...

After that runs, move to the brakes, and when they are done, tires.

But most of all, ASK when you are not positive what to do - we've all been there (I have 4 Mark II orphans, all needing the same kind of TLC that your car needs, and a 45-year-stored TC on the way!). By asking you can learn what to do and how, what not to do or buy things that you don't need, or where to find better quality parts than you think.

Do you have a Moss motors catalog? Call and get one; they are always very useful for the good exploded drawings.

ASK!

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Thanks Tom, very helpful information. I guess I am going to have to really think about what I want out of the car, as you said.

Since I am not too well versed on the engine and what it needs, what is the best literature for a newbie in your opinion? I know there are many references in the archive to many different books. What would give me the best understanding of how the engine works and what is what?


SCG Scott

Scott, although building an engine requires very specialized engineering that few, if any, of us ever master, the operation of the engine is pretty simple. The fuel pump puts gasoline into the carburetor float bowls. Turning the engine draws air, and with it some of that fuel, into each cylinder. At the appropriate time the distributor sends a spark to the fuel/air mixture causing it to ignite and create heat. The heat causes the gaseous burnt fuel/air mixture to expand creating pressure which pushes the piston down. Coordinating the sequence and timing of when all those events occur is done primarily by the cam shaft which turns at half the speed of the crankshaft. Optimizing that timing for the desired results (fuel economy, racing power, engine life, whatever...) is tuning.

MGs are pretty primitive so tuning to at least a satisfactory level is within the ability of most owners. Assuming that the fuel pump, the generator/regulator and the cooling system all work, and that you've got good oil in the sump and new gas in the tank, about the only tuning adjustments available are the ratio of fuel to air delivered by the carburetors and when the spark ignites that mixture. You can get both of these adjustments close enough for the engine to run without any sophisticated tools or instruments.

Get a copy of the Work Shop Manual (WSM, you can get a reprint from Moss)and also check Totally T-Type for instructions from Dave on basic carburetor settings but if the car ran when it was put up those settings are probably close enough to get it started. The WSM will also guide you through initial distributor timing that, again, will get you close enough to get the engine running. After that it's just a matter of tweaking those two adjustments to your satisfaction.

I know that all of this is pretty basic and may not be anything you don't already know but it's been a helpful exercise for me to organize my thoughts and put them down in writing.

Jud, TD25009, 3rd Year Newbie
J K Chapin

G'day Scott. The WSM is essential & if you decide to do a rolling restoration Horst Schach's & Malcolm Green's books are also essential reading. The Driver's Handbook is an absolute must as it's full of illustrations & basic advice on maintaining & running the car. Though the Moss catalogue is good the one recommended to me by Graeme Evans here on the BBS is from Anglo Parts. It is SO much better as the illustrations are much clearer, they're larger & also in colour. Before you buy any new parts ask on the BBS as there is a supplier to be very wary of who sells stuff that's just a waste of money. Drive & enjoy. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter, I agree that the Anglo Parts are superb but I keep a paper copy of Moss on my garage desk just 'cause it's so danged handy. Do you know if AP offers a printed catelog? Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Jud,

Download Anglo Parts' catalogue and park it on your desktop. They also offer a printed version but I don't know if it's without charge.

Jasper
JL Nederhoed TD3966

Has anyone in the US purchased from Anglo Parts and if so, how is quality and service? This is the first I have heard of them. Their catalog looks first rate!

thanks,

Bill
TD24570
Bill Brown

My favourite is a copy of the "The T Series Handbook" (reprints from the Sacred Octagon - Knudson, editor). It has a section that leads you through most of what you should need in a very easy readable format. For many "beginner" subjects I find it an easier read that the WSM. Good luck. ..... Chris
Chris Malcolm (TD29228)

Thanks everyone for their advise on the best literature to check out, and for walking me through the engine Jud. I am about 99% sure that my dad has the WSM at home, though it is very old and I am always worried I will damage it if it is opened. I requested a catalog from Moss yesterday at the recommendation of Tom. Also, I was able to get someone at work help print and bind a color copy of the Anglo Parts' catalog. I am really looking forward to going through that tonight.

I'll work my way through those and then maybe check out the recommendations of Horst Schach, Malcolm Green, and "The T Series Handbook". I wouldn't be surprised if my Dad had copies of these also.

Some more back ground on the car..… I spoke to my mom last night and she told me that my dad got the MG sometime in the late 60's (college years) and it was stored outside under a carport for about 20 years. My dad used it as his weekend driver for fun. When my parents got their first house in the 80’s the car was moved into the garage where it has been ever since. The last time that it was started was about 15 years ago. I do not think it took much to get it going, I remember the main thing we had to do was to clean out the gas line. I also remember the breaks were not in working order so we pushed out of the garage, got it going, and then pushed it right back in. Wish I knew more about it, but that might be about it.
Thanks again for all of the incite!



SCG Scott

Engine swaps were common back in the day. When I worked for Auto Engineering in Lexington Mass in the early 50's one of us (the shop crew) would work all day on the bench rebuilding the engines we had taken in. When you brought in your T type for engine work the shop guys would pull the engine and install a replacement from stock. PRESTO, one day service! If you were good buddies with one of the mechanics, you might even end up with an XPEG at no extra charge. The system DID play hell with car registration. All cars up until 1955 were titled by engine number (Ford did not have chassis numbers until that year) so all those switched-engine cars no longer matched their titles. Fortunately most DMVs only looked at the makers plate, not at the octagonal engine tag!

Does your engine perhaps still have the XPAG3 (TD MKII) cylinder head? It has a six digit casting number starting with 168 while the smaller valved regular head number has 5 digits and starts with 98 or 99.

Have fun! Jarl de Boer 60 year MG mechanic restorer.
J de Boer

PS: the brake problem for TD/TF is SOP. It's a function of the aluminum cylinders and steel pistons and electolysis. If the car is parked for more than a year or so the slight brake fluid seepage attracts moisture, the wheel cylinders generate aluminum hydroxide (which has more volume that the aluminum consumed) and the pistons seize. Repair is a relatively simple procedure, and the cure is to use silicone fluid which is not hygroscopic. Jarl
J de Boer

Just to support Jarl's story about engine swaps and the DMV, my car has one of 'his' swapped engines for the exact reasons he stated. You could either have your car back the same day or next or wait a week. Most chose the former.

But that does bring in the DMV problem he stated. So the cleaver engine swapper also removed the octagon tag from the engine so it matched the makers plate. But there is a casting number which is the engine number too as was pointed out. If you look at my picture you will see my octagonal tag does not match my casting number but it does match the makers plate.

In most cases they really just swapped the block and probably the head. It was up to the shop how much else they could sell you versus just swapping the good parts from your engine that were retained.


Christopher Couper

Tom Lange, has your e mail changed. I just tried to send you an email and it came back as undeliverable.
TRM Maine

I seem to be having problems; I'm looking into it. Thanks. Tom
t lange

Thanks Tom, was trying to see what size the Supercharger is. I have an eaton MP 90 in my garage. wanted to know if I could modify it to fit the TD at some point in the future.
TRM Maine

Great to hear from you, Jarl. It's been a long time. Hope all is well. Bud Krueger
Bud Krueger

Tom - our blower uses an Eaton M45 as the basis - an M90 is for a much bigger V-6, about 3x as big as an XPAG, I believe.

Still no e-mail. Tom
t lange

Scott: Where is the car? I'm in Wilmington, NC. Would like to see it. My TD is the same color.
Bob McLeod TD 5618

Hi Bob, the car is in VA right now. I have not brought it to NC as of yet. Wouldn't mind seeing a picture of your car if they are close in color.
SCG Scott

Here is a picture of my '51 (January build date) From your picture, the color looks similar.

Bob McLeod




Bob McLeod TD 5618

Bob, the deep red on your car looks great. It does look very similar to mine but I will have to buff it out a bit to see if it actually matches.

Is there a way to tell what the original colors were for these cars? Is there some sort of master list or way to tell by one of the ID's on the car?

Thanks!
SCG Scott

Unlike the TF, there is no color code. All the records were thrown away.

So the only way on non stripped cars is to go hunting in the deep crevices of the car looking for undisturbed paint.
Christopher Couper

I would like to know what the original color was. So far haven't found any original paint but I keep looking.

Bob
Bob McLeod TD 5618

Bob, when I get the car in front of me again I will check to see if I can see anything under the rust.

I asked this earlier but I think it was overlooked: "I'm guessing I can just go at the outside with the usual hand wash car wash and water? There wouldn't be anything that I would have to be careful with would there? Anything to make sure that I don't get wet? Would it be OK to give under the hood a good wash too?

Thanks!
SCG Scott

What I'm seeing is a color that's reminiscent of Autumn Red. It was being used in late 1951. Bud
Bud Krueger

SCG: Keep the water out of the interior. Even if it has a tonneau cover you have to be careful the water does not drain into the cabin from where the rear view mirror is.

You can wash the engine too. You should put plastic wrap on the starter, generator, air cleaner, distributor and control box before introducing any water. Also you might have to tape over some holes on the firewall so water does not get into the passenger compartment.
Christopher Couper

This thread was discussed between 05/05/2015 and 13/05/2015

MG TD TF 1500 index

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