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MG TD TF 1500 - Matching Numbers

How important are matching numbers, between the engine and the body plate on TDs? On my '53, they don't match, but the car is restored, I love the car and I don't care. But, I recently showed my barn car, another unrestored '53 TD, to a prospective buyer. He checked the numbers and made an issue about them not matching. I thought it was just posturing to get a better price (I didn't sell the car), but he insisted that he restores them for resale and that collectors make an issue if the numbers don't match. In my recollection, engines were often swapped, then the exhanged engine was rebuilt and put into another car. That is likely what happened with my restored TD. I've seen TDs with MGA, MGB, midget, Volvo and even a BMW engine in them, so as long as it has a TD engine I see no issue. So is this really an issue or not?

Ira
Ira Spector (PA)

Ira
I would imagine matching numbers would count towards the cars "Originality" as far as being correct as when it left the factory. My TF has matching numbers as to chassis and engine but the dynamo, starter motor and wiper motor all are date stamped with later dates than 1953 when the car was built....dynamo 58 wiper motor 51 so I imagine a stckler would haggle over these inconsistancies as well. The fact your TD has an XPAG unit makes it considerably more original than one with an MGA or MGB unit.
jeff payne

When I bought my TF last year, one of the things I looked for was whether the numbers matched. This was my first and only purchase and the matching numbers were important to my decision thinking that when I need to sell it that it might be worth more that way. That may or may not be true, but if others think the way I did, then you might not find as many buyers for the price you're asking. If I had to choose between buying one with and one without matching numbers, I'd opt for the match, or think about offering less for the unmatched. But this is just my thinking as a sample of one.

Terry
Terry Jacobs

To many the numbers must match or else- if bought for investment reasons. I could personally care less if I bought it for fun and enjoyment. Of course how do you know if they really match? New ID plates are available, and numbers fraud has been a problem for a long time in collector car circles. Is a car restored with a new tub and wings the same car? Yes, the numbers may match, but to me that is not the same car! What about cars with the same numbers built partly from the chassis and body of the original donor? Dick Knudson had an intersting article about this in TSO some years ago.
George Butz

My 53 TD has the brass engine plate mounted to the block, with the same numbers that are are on the built plate. However the number stamped into the block itself is wrong. I could replace the brass plates but I don't think I will.

The numbers matching problem started when the muscle cars started to bring in high dollar prices. It was easy to drop a hemi or big block into a cheap body and paint it up and pass it off as a rare car.

I have been trying to buy a lotus 23B for about the last year or so. The problem is that there were only 100 ever made and only a 150 survived. I looked at the same numbered car for sale in texas and in Calf. One started out with the lump from orginal car that was wrecked and the other started out with the wreck. Both wanted the same price. I passed on both. With the T cars there is no profit in building one from parts and trying to pass it off as an orginal car.

Safety Fast!

Tom

T.L. Manion

I think this business of "matching numbers" is over valued. A genuine, original car has alot of appeal. If a car has a complete history or is a one owner car, that adds value. If during that time the engine was replaced (with the correct unit) it does detract, but only a little.

One of my older cars had an engine let go after six months. The factory replaced the unit. I have the copies of the full factory service. Im my opinion, this is still a genuine car.

The example of the Lotus 23B is very interesting. If a car had a complete and colourful racing history it would be a genuine car. Closer inspection might reveal that many major components were replaced. This would be typical of any racing car. Bodywork, frame and engine may all have had major repairs over the years. Is it still a Lotus 23B? It really depends on the completeness of the history and documentation to go with it.

Tony

Tony Cove

I believe there are many of our TDs around these days that "apparently" have matching numbers. It is, and was, common practice to simply switch the brass plates from one block to another when it had to be replaced. There are other numbers stamped on the block but are buried from view. So, don't count on the engine being "original" when all the plates seem to match.
Jim Merz

All previous is well put. To me the matching numbers are nice but only one item in the final analysis. Interesting that when I was looking for an TF 1500 this last Fall I found a '54 in Alexandria Virginia that claimed to be a 1500. Well the car number was way too low but it did indeed have a data plate that showed the matching numbers to the XPEG installed. I walked away because the car was not near the value the owner wanted.Check out EBAY as I think there is a listing now for a dataplate and in that he describes the difference between the Moss copy and the original.
D Clark

It seems to me very interesting that whenever a "matching numbers" car is mentioned it refers to the body plate and engine plate numbers. Maybe because these are more show worthy and what people have been taught to look for. I was really happy to find that the serial number stamped in the front left dumb iron matched the body id plate on my TD -- maybe it means the car has never sustained substantial damage. I know the block is a replacement and have been reluctant to put a new engine plate on with the original engine number -- but it would become a matching number car. Neil Cairns in his writings on MG engines tells us all how things can be changed.
Regards,
Dennis
D F Sexton

No Ira. It is only an issue with the nit pickers who have classic cars to polish and take to shows.Those of us who have had MGs for several years [ 47 to be exact ] have them to drive and get dirty, which is what cars are made for.When these cars were current the factory used to supply replacement exchange engines, so there are probably thousands of cars running around with the ones that were not originally fitted. Frankly I think that anyone who refuses to buy a car just because it isn't fitted with the same engine that it had when it left the factory needs to see their shrink!!.Incidently, the correct type of XPAG engine that your car should have is a TD2 [not MK2 ]with the cartridge type filter.

H.E.W
H.E.W. Walker

This thread was discussed between 29/01/2004 and 30/01/2004

MG TD TF 1500 index

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