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MG TD TF 1500 - It has begun - My first Q' on what to do.

Evening Gents.

I'll try to make this brief and get to the questions, but first a bit of history. When I got my TD it was "resting" for about 13 years. I've had it close to 8 so we're up around 20+ years the car has been sitting. I never started the car but took care so that when I tried to, I did not ruin anything. She never started but did turn over and oil pressure built up to about 50 psi and all valves went up and down which I thought were good signs.

Car is just about as original as I can tell. 58 year old tattered paint and interior, southern California car all it's life and owned by one lady from '56 till I got it. Paint is worn, engine is greasy, all wood is perfect.

I was working on this and that here and there. I removed the carbs which were totally gunked and not moving at all. Then I took off the manifold and then the thermostat housing and pipes, grille radiator and bonnet! There I admit it OK?. The reason I did this was because I noticed that the front engine mount was like runny roofing tar as were many of the other rubber bits up front. Hmmm do I pull the engine to replace all of them, why not.

That was two years ago and then I got attacked by B's. Literally attacked by MGB's and now own 1, 2, 3, ...7 oh and a midget. So put down the B's and start playing with a real car right. Tonight I'm in the process of pulling the engine to clean it and clean the engine bay. If I'm going through the trouble, I want to check it out, make sure the clutch is OK, look for obvious leaks...NOW TO THE QUESTIONS.

Do I flip the engine and check the bearings?

Should I clean and paint the engine and the components?

What else should I do while it's out?

I ask about the painting because, the car is very original and I am not restoring it. Will it be devalued? I've had people tell me not to repaint anything and to drive it as a rolling time piece. Trust me it's tattered from baking in the Cali sun but it's very solid and not rusty or rotted. Some would look at it and say why are you driving this heap. I like that fact that it's the way it left Abingdon. Would I like it perfect, sure who wouldn't

Luckily, I've collected many new and used parts over the years but now that I decided to start this up again I am on a ZERO dollar budget. I may be able to spend a few bucks on gaskets and stuff but nothing major if it come up. This is not going to turn into a restoration...yet. I'll really need to save when it comes to tires and brakes which I do not have.

Sorry for the lengthy post I just wanted to give some history and fill you guys in.

Cheers
Vince
VWP Pina

Vince,

I like your idea of leaving the car *as is*...up to a point. Paint, bodywork and upholstery will never leave you stranded on the side of the road. Engines, transmissions, carburetors and brake systems will though. Clean doesn't necessarily mean painted so unless you want to paint them, don't bother...just make sure those are all in excellent condition and then leave well enough alone.

Gene

P.S. - In a year or two you'll be so enamored with the car that driving it as it is won't be good enough and you'll break down and take everything apart to paint it. But in the meantime...enjoy!
E F Gillam

Vince,
If the engine has been sitting for that long (20 years) without being started, I think it would be a good idea to go through it.. Just turning it over is one thing, but when you actually run it, there is a lot more "stuff" happening in there. I don't think it would make any sence to take it out, clean the engine compartment and put it back in without going through it! Bearings, rings, seals, timing chain, valve guides etc.

SPW
Steve Wincze

Vince,

The only reason to pull the bottom end of the engine apart would be to grind the crank and put in new bearings. Unless someone has monkied with the pressure relief valve in the oil pump (shims or what not) I would leave well enough alone. You can give the head attention later unless it is poor on compression due to valves. As long as it starts and runs, you can go a long way on a tired engine without hurting it, but do check the valves as good valve to head contact is important for heat transfer, It also wouldn't hurt to check the valve lift to verify the cam is not worn.

I don't think there is anything wrong with fresh coats of paint on ancillary items (engine, horns, starter, generator, air cleaner, gear box, rear diff, front suspension) as long as you stick with satin black or original colors, no one will be able to tell the difference. The key here is to clean off the gunk, which will reveal bare spots in the paint, and then protect them.

I would also consider a new wiring loom.

After that, you can drive the car a long time without top or side curtains... putting on a top is easy and can be done when you have funds. I don't know how the interior is, but if the leather is intact, you can refinish it with dyes ala Gordon Lawson. Bad vinyl in the back could be replaced and since it isn't very visible, it won't detract from originality. Carpeting can be cut from thin pile if needed.

The paint is the biggest problem. If it is original, but looks like heck, well, then I think you have to respray it to get it presentable. However, if no bare metal is showing perhaps you can leave it. The thing is, that it is more fit and placement on these cars (bonnet alignment, wing alignment, door alignment) that screams originality. Respraying it the same color, or even touching up badly worn areas with a oclor match shouldn't make it non original.

Chrome can be spiffed up and replated later, even a piece at a time as it nearly all is accessible on a finished car.

I'm all for preserving originality on well preserved cars, but sun baked examples are not well preserved and should be freshened.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Thanks. In case no one has seen the car in pics. lets see if this link to photobucket works.

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1952%20MG%20TD/
VWP Pina

Vince,

I agree with Dave on the wiring, but I would not repaint anything for cosmetic reasons. The car will only be original once. Judging from the pictures, the "patina" looks great to me. I would do brakes, tires and wiring to make the car safe. Then I would enjoy it.

I have always been jealous of Gordon Lawson's car. I really love the approach he followed in preserving and enjoying his TD. You can find details here: http://www3.sympatico.ca/gordonblawson/td/td.html

You can always do a restoration later. Just my opinion!

Good luck!
Evan

Evan Ford TD27621 EXL/NA

Vince,

You have really good base to work with. There are a lot of low cost/no cost projects you can tackle. Good luck.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

I think you would be really wise to go thru the 50 plus year old brake system if you plan to drive it much. I have ended up just replacing all the brake components, tubing, individual wheel cylinders, master cylinders and any rubber components on my cars. These cars are a single reservoir system so if you loose any component you can loose all your brakes. Have a good day!

John
John Progess

Vincent, I like the idea of keeping it original but after going through the photos I have some concerns. The rust may have not eaten any hole through anything yet but it certainly has a good foot hold in a lot of areas. If those are not addressed relativly soon they can become insermountable to keeping her rolling.
It's a crap shoot on the engine if you don't pull it apart and check it out. It most likely needs new rings, bearings and probably a valve job. Those things run into a lot of money but not as much as a rod going through the side of the block. Tough call with no money budget. I can help you out with a couple of small bits for no money. I have about 8 of the side curtain mounting plates and and lever nuts that aren't all that great but heads and shoulders above the rusty jobs you have. Should keep the look for you without looking worn out. Also have an extra metal center dash piece that it looks like you could use. I may have some other stuff for you when I get finished up on mine.

LaVerne
LED DOWNEY

Thanks Laverne. One thing I remember about this site was that the TD owners are a good team of people and are concerned about preserving (when possible) just as much as wrenching and driving these babies. I've gotten a few "patina" parts for shipping and I've been really appreciative of that. Your offers are appreciated and I'm sure we'll be in touch. This is what I've been doing for a few years, making connections and finding used parts. email me if you could and let me know what you have that looks better than what I have or am missing. vping@optonline.net

I'd love to find some old green Rexine to redo the dash and try and repair some of the interior.

I'd be curious as to the specific pictures that have you concerned about my rust. This now becoming a "right coast" car has been cause for cencern and if there things I can do now to prevent further decay, I'll do it.

For years I've also admired Gordons car. Now that's a rolling timepiece.

One thing to mention is that the seats are vinyl redone in the late 60's by the PO's son. A trip to Tiujuana and upholstry shop did the originals in.

VWP Pina

Motor: if out, pull the pan, check it and clean it out. I would pull a couple bearing caps and inspect- no point in running if they are scored badly or trashed. The original rod cap bolts seem to always be stretched- change those too. You can visually see the camshaft, cylinder bores, etc. and somewhat determine what shape they are in-lost of rust-bad. If all looks good, button it back up, put oil back in, prime, then check compression. No point putting it back in the car if compression is zero in one cylinder, etc. Definitely do the clutch- at minimum the disk and throw-out bearing- they are pretty cheap, and make sure the brass spigot bushing the the end of the crank is solid and not flopping around, and change the front tranny seal (be sure and tape the splines so they don't cut the new seal).
Brakes: postively change all rubber hoses, and rebuild/replace/repair all cylinders. Of course change the hub seals and service front bearings at this time. Change the diff pinion seal rear end and tranny oil also. Rear tranny mount blocks and front stabilizer rubber bushings must be changed. Might as well do the front suspension bushings and rubber seals while doing the brakes- that stuff is pretty cheap too. I like the "B" rubber/steel tube A arm bushings. I think John Twist had something on his web site that steering and stopping are the most important things of all- I agree. George
George Butz

Also, the wiring harness looks pretty bad. I have a used cloth-covered dash-dimming w/turn signal TD harness that is pretty intact- if any interest contact me off the board. George
George Butz

I'm all for originality, but if you're going to own this car for a long time then I would follow George's recommendation to at least have a peek at the bearings, clean the oil pan, etc. I especially agree about a complete brake system rebuild.

I would also paint the engine while it's out because it makes it easier to work on when you can see what you're doing, and where leaks are coming from. Make it perfect underneath, and leave the visible patina if you so desire.
Steve Simmons

Vince
Since you are going to have the engine and trans removed, check the pedal box and renew the bushings as it is a little easier to do with them removed. I would probably have the master cylinder rebuilt also at this time ? I also agree with the post about Gordon Lawson’s car, although I don’t know if I would checker the grill? Good luck and let the adventure begin! John
John Hambleton

Vince: I know exactly where you are. In October I bought a $4300 '53 TD on eBay, a genuine 36,000-mile car, tatty but complete with original interior, re-painted once, and finally ridden hard and put away wet in 1969 when an axle shaft broke. The PO has given me the complete history of the car and it is all original - right down to the early replaced 5.50x15 tires, but needs almost everything, too! So I thought, 36,000 miles - everything tip-top shape, no?

So far I have done and replaced (or will) the following just to get it SAFELY AND RELIABLY back on the road: complete front suspension with all new rubber (found 1 broken coil spring and totally dead shocks), urethane bushings, rear suspension urethane bushings, shocks and all rubber suspension pieces. Front hub seals replaced, bearings re-packed. All new brakes and hoses with sleeved cylinders and m/c, silicone fluid, pedal shaft and bushings, clutch linkage oval holes welded and re-drilled, all new clevis pins. New radiator (they don't benefit from sitting for 30 years with water in them...), waterpump, hoses and belts. Floorboards, fuel pumps. Tach and speedo, generator and wiper motor sent out, cables pulled apart, solid grease cleaned out, and re-lubed. Carbs rebuilt. Two new HD axle shafts. Rack and pinion removed and dismantled to clean out the solid grease. Engine, trans mount and steady rubbers.

Engine pulled, 6 inches of goo removed from the sump. Block detergent hot-tanked to remove stiff oil throughout the passages. Valves re-lapped, new main and rod bearings, rings, rod bolts, main cap nuts and tappets, oil pump and distributor checked, 50 years of goo removed from the block water passages, drain holes cleared in the two core plug openings, brass core plugs. New ring gear and pilot bushing, flywheel re-surfaced and the engine balanced. Rocker shaft and 2 rockers replaced. New clutch, tires and exhaust. Driveshaft balanced. Trans seals.

And, I am painting everything per original, after cleaning off decades of grease and dirt. So no, a quickie get-it-on-the-road-after-sitting-for-20-years-job is not going to be safe or economical, IMHO. Better to do a bit more now and not to have to do it again for 25 years, than economizing now and have to do it in a year.

Just my $.02!

Tom, Bar Harbor, Maine
t lange

...mine had been away for 26 years or so... replaced all the brake lines and had all the seized parts rebuilt.. the carbs were pretty well gummed and had them cleaned out and rebuilt... As i cleaned the grunge off i really fell in love with the patina and didn't want to lose the lovely old lacquer finish. It happened to be in pretty fair mechanical shape so have been really lucky...just do whats needed when its needed...have put 25000 miles on it in 5 years...
gordon lawson

While I agree with everyone's advice for percautions on the engine, if you are short of budget Vince, I see nothing wrong in spinning the engine first to see if the compression is good.

You've already spun it to establish oil pressure, which means MOST of the bearing surfaces are intact (albeit there may be some acid etching and wear of the soft bearing shells). I agree with dropping the pan and replacing the big end bolts. I would not drop the pistons unless compression is low and an oil pressure test reveals a bad ring. If the rings are good and compression poor, than take the head off (which could be a challenge given the corrosion on the center studs) and reseat/replace the valves.

If you need new pistons and rings, make sure to break the ridge, and apply a light hone and check your ring gaps. If you need block work (to clean up scoring) than you might as well get the whole job done, but now we are talking three grand.

I ran my engine for years with 135 psi in 2, 3 and 4 and 60 in 1. The damage to the bearings was mostly wormy in appearance, but they were still doing their jobs. When I disassembled my engine I had cotters in the sump as those bits broke off because a previous shop used cotters instead of safety wire, which makes no sense as the main studs go in with about 5 ft-lbs. so sometimes you find yourself turning the studs instead of the nuts trying to achieve torque, and without safety wire they are just as likely to back off as the nuts. And honestly? A properly torqued nut doesn't need safety wire. I had a scored number one cylinder from a broken ring, and I found the three broken pieces (with the ends worn and tumbled) still in the ring landing. I had a burned exhaust valve. The pictures are on my website. I went from .040 over to .060 over pistons, so the scoring was light.

I did enjoy the engine for years in its mechanically deficient state. The engines are more likely to self destruct when someone applies the wrong torque to a gudgeon pinch bolt or weakens a rod in an attempt to balance it, or to clear the space needed to get a gudgeon pinch bolt tight. For that reason I recommend allen headed gudgeon pinch bolts, (Fastenal is M8-1.0x30 SHCS 12.9) which is equivalent to SAE grade 8. The torque value quoted in a lot of books is too high, 25 to 27 ft-lbs. is good in dry parts, 20% less in lubricated parts. If the cam is in order and the oil pressure good, a clean sump and minor head work may be all you need. A lot cheaper than a total rebuild. If you don't magneflux the crank, stay away from 4400 RPM.

When you have the bucks again, you can do the full rebuild. With the milage shown on your car, I bet it has had one rebuild at least already.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

In terms of re-lapping the valves, the book shows a suction cup tool, and a friend recently showed me how he did this with a landie engine. A little abrasive paste and a few twists of the tool and they looked pretty decent.

I was going to throw the starter back in to check the compression before I remove the engine. The hopefully after that I can get the engine out this weekend. I'll have a full report when I do.
vping

This thread was discussed between 18/02/2010 and 19/02/2010

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