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MG TD TF 1500 - Front Disc Brake Conversion for TD

All,

I have a friend with a 1952 TD that he would like to improve the braking efficiency on. He has a Lockheed servo that he wants to use, and I wonder if someone has converted to a disc brake system from say an A or an early B series car? If so what is involved, and a possible source for the parts?

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

L.C. '69 midget & '74 B/GT
Larry C.

Sounds great. Disk breaks would realy be a stopper.. Don't forget the little v6 motor and a mazda transmission. Even better, an automatic transmission. Now that would make a real TD. Dave#1.
capdave

Thanks for the input "capdave, usa"! I guess you put me in my place? Believe me, I should not bother this BBS again! Feels too much like communicating with the "Austin or Triumph" folks!

By the way, the gentleman in question is now in his seventies and has driven MG's from the late forties. He is still quite active (3 to 5K miles annually). He asked me to inquire, but I should have known better!

Regards,

L.C.

Larry C.

I started to compose a frivolous response, about putting 'hopper' suspension and tubbing the rear end, but I thought better of it. There's a whole continuum of opinions on this, but when you start replacing major components of your car, the car ceases to be a TD and becomes a TD hot rod. Which is OK, since you own it, you can change your car into Chuck Barris style creation (the English Munster family, anyone?) but most people would regard that to be in poor taste, not to mention that are a limited number of TD's still on the road. I would keep your modifications minor and reversable. You may be able to reverse the disk brake mod if you put some though into how you do it.

I'm not a total purist. In my TF, I will be putting in uprated suspension bushings, using modern paint technology that was unavailable at the time of manufacture, and probably will use lots of fasteners that are not exactly the same as original (allen head cap screws in a few places). These faults may offend some judges at shows, but I don't care. I'm going to fix up my car the way I like it. Do the same to yours, but don't be surprized if someone gets offended.

MB
Mark B.

Mark,

Thank you for your restraint, and insite. You understand my original point. I too would like to see this car survive. Presently, it is driven in modern traffic and is more likely to end up in the scrapper due to an accident than harmed by this conversion. I would much rather see disc's than a servo! My thought was to just replace the stub axle if possible, and thats all a modification that should be reversable? I do not own a "T-Series" and most likely never will. A big part of it is attitude! Hope the "T-Clan" reading this have a plan to carry the torch when they pass on, unlike the "Model T" Ford group? No offense intended, but you see what I mean.

Regards,

L.C.
Larry C.

Larry,

I could also join the 'No! No!' crowd, but they're
ignoring your friend's other option, the booster. I seem to recall that, somewhere in the archives of this list, you should find the details of where someone did just that to a TD, added a vacuum power booster. There is a servo sytem available for early MGB's. I know of one that's sold by Victoria British <www.victoriabritish.com> (not my favorite parts source). It's called a 'Lockheed Add-On Brake Servo Kit' and sells for $300 (5") or $460 (7"). Since it's just a matter of plumbing, it can be mounted virtually anywhere in the car and only be noticed when your friend puts his foot on the 'whoa' pedal. I may do it myself one of these days.

Bud Krueger (closer to 70 than 60)
Bud Krueger

Hi Larry,
If there is a problem with TD brakes it is usually that the pistons are seized in the wheel cylinders. This happens frequently to cars that are garaged for extended periods. In fact the system should be dismantled and cleaned up about every 5 years in my opinion. I guess that what I am trying to say is that there is nothing wrong with the original setup if it is in good condition. I recently started thinking that the brakes on my TD needed a bit of attention as I needed heavy pedal pressures to stop. When I pulled it apart I had oil on one lining and a couple of seized pistons. The brakes are fine now, bloody marvellous in fact. Your friend should maybe check the existing setup before committing heaps of dollars on something that should not be necessary.

Hope this helps,

Paul.

Paul van Gool

Hi, I think that going to disc brakes will create a problem in that the the front and rear brakes will now have uneven braking power that the car was not designed for. I recently put an inline vacuum booster on a Morris Minor with good results. I could finally get the car to stop! These boosters were common in cars of the 50's and 60's. For example, Land Rover, Jaguar, Toyoto. It is a simple matter of mounting the booster in a convenient location and then hooking up some brake lines. The most difficult part would be finding a source for the vacuum since the TD manifold did not have any fittings for this and you would need to put one in somewhere. I should point out that "Road and Track", when they assessed the TD in 1952, remarked on its superior braking in comparison to other cars of that year.
Regards, Hugh Pite
Hugh Pite

Larry,
My recommendation would be to fit a remote vacuum servo and use the existing brakes. A friend of mine has fitted one to his TF and the result is very very good.Even his wife drives it now!

I have just fitted on to my TF and will shortly fit one to my TD.

There is room for the servo just above the rear axle.

I have some pics and Lockheed instructions.

David

David Tinker

Bud,
Thanks for the input. He has a Lockheed Booster in the garage, and it sounds like that may be the best option.

Paul,

He has had the wheel cylinders apart and he claims all is well? I will review this with him again soon.

Hugh,

Good point here as well. I was thinking perhaps a proportioning valve might help in this area if he went with the disc setup? But the servo is sounding like a better option.

David,

I will try to keep you posted on the progress, and advise if we need the lockheed instructions.


All,

I will pass all of this information on to my friend who is a retired Physicist. As I mentioned earlier he has owned MG's for fifty years now. His stories about driving from New York to California in the early 50's is nothing short of amazing. I have been trying to get him to write about his adventures, and hope we can do so this winter. We appreciate your comments.

Regards,

L.C.

Oh yea, captdave, hang in their buddy.


Larry C.

I still think the v6 is the answer, why make it stop if it want go. Actually a TD kit car on a chevette base is nice. Looks just like a TD but stops and goes better. No one will ever know. But, we all wish you bona fortuna. At least you will be safely stopped when us purist have 'dun run into sumpin'. Dave.
capdave

capdave,

Understand I mean no irreverent harm when I say this, as I wish no harm to any fellow MG owner. But perhaps a few of your T-Series friends might agree with this statement?

"Should a flock of well fed geese postion themselfs in such a way to deliver their ordinance moments before the honorable judges find their way to your position at your next car show, I for one, would consider this matter closed!"

L.C.
Larry C.

Dave #1, read your comments on putting "a v6" into the TD. I assume you are talking about the chevy 2.8 liter, 60 degree V6. That is my next project after I finish filling my TD brake system with silicone fluid. As of now, I have been unable to keep the silicone fluid where it belongs, in the system. New connections hold, old connections leak like a sieve. Since I am one engine & transmission short for the second TD, replacing the original was a little too steep and decided to look into the possibilities of a newer power plant. Hope I'm not stoned when the word gets out. At least I didn't go the 350 route.
Jim Smith

Really amusing posts above- sounds like comments I made regarding 5-speed transmissions months ago-oops- shouldn't have brought that back up. Seriously, A TD/TF with good wheel cyls/non-oiled linings/master cyl stops very well with little pressure. Maybe not like a Buick, but still very well. Linings which have been greased/oiled/ cleaned and sanded with brake cleaner just don't get it. My car is now requiring some extra leg- still stops straight and will skid all 4 on the driveway, but I know things are not right. I think disks would require the same, if not more, pressure (hydralic and leg), and the only advantage would be avoiding overheating, and work better soaking wet. The best bet would be to corectly rebuild the brake system- front and rear, and try that first before major mods.
George Butz

Good for you, Larry..I'll gladly supply the geese! Whether the guy wants to add disc brakes, a booster, a chevy big block or a jet engine doesn't necessitate the
snide wise guy remarks from the various stuffed shirts out there. My TD has a non stock engine and I intend to keep it that way. It had it when I bought it, makes a ton more sense for real world driving conditions, and unless someone is willing to donate the original XPAG engine and trans, and guarantee it won't leave me stranded on some back road some night, I don't really see a good reason to change it back.
I don't plan to show it, I plan to drive it. And as for the ultimate value of the vehicle, since I intend to keep it for some time, I'll let the executors of my estate worry about that.

The purists out there seem pretty selective about what upgrades are considered acceptable. Retrofitting MGA gears is OK? The factory didn't offer it, but it's ok cause it makes the car more livable for everday driving. How about modern paints, interior and top materials, glues, fasteners, wiring and electrical components. Those are OK because they're more durable and easier to work with. Face it, a lot of the original spec material was junk before it left the factory.

So hang in there Larry. Your entitled to a reasonable, repectful answer to any question you happen to post. If the "keepers of the flame" don't like it, that's their problem. Maybe they should buy Porsches, they'd really fit in with those guys.

Pete W

Peter Whelan

Enough already you bunch of w*nkers!
If you can't offer any useful advise, leave the poor fool alone. If upgrading the brakes will make it easier for someone to continue to enjoy their MGT so be it. Adding disc brakes to a TD can easily be done and is reverseable. It will add no added pedal presure and the car will positively stand on its nose when you lay on the binders. The easist way to do it is to use MGA uprights, spindles, discs, calipers and wheels. I recently saw all the bits necessary at a british car swap meet for $100
I've done several conversions with good results.
Still if all your brakes cylinders, shoes and hoses are in good shape, not oiled or leaking, the stock set up works just fine. A disc braked TD will stop shorter than a drum braked car and the discs will not fade after repeated use like the drums. A car with a servo will not stop any shorter than a non servo equipped car, but it will stop with less pedal effort.

Ben Travato

Enough already you bunch of w*nkers!
If you can't offer any useful advise, leave the poor fool alone. If upgrading the brakes will make it easier for someone to continue to enjoy their MGT so be it. Adding disc brakes to a TD can easily be done and is reverseable. It will add no added pedal presure and the car will positively stand on its nose when you lay on the binders. The easist way to do it is to use MGA or MGB uprights, spindles, discs, calipers and 15" wheels. I recently saw all the bits necessary at a british car swap meet for $100
I've done several conversions with good results.
Still if all your brakes cylinders, shoes and hoses are in good shape, not oiled or leaking, the stock set up works just fine. A disc braked TD will stop shorter than a drum braked car and the discs will not fade after repeated use like the drums. A car with a servo will not stop any shorter than a non servo equipped car, but it will stop with less pedal effort.
Ciao, Ben T.



Ben Travato

Enough already you bunch of w*nkers!
If you can't offer any useful advise, leave the poor fool alone. If upgrading the brakes will make it easier for someone to continue to enjoy their MGT so be it. Adding disc brakes to a TD can easily be done and is reverseable. It will add no added pedal presure and the car will positively stand on its nose when you lay on the binders. The easist way to do it is to use MGA or MGB uprights, spindles, discs, calipers and 15" wheels. I recently saw all the bits necessary at a british car swap meet for $100
I've done several conversions with good results.
Still if all your brakes cylinders, shoes and hoses are in good shape, not oiled or leaking, the stock set up works just fine. A disc braked TD will stop shorter than a drum braked car and the discs will not fade after repeated use like the drums. A car with a servo will not stop any shorter than a non servo equipped car, but it will stop with less pedal effort.
Ciao, Ben T.



Ben Travato

I agree that a standard TD with brakes in good shape has more than adequate stopping power under normal circumstances. I have a blower on mine (sorry capdave but I guess I'll just have to spend eternity in Hell for a few mortal moments of fun) and I simply have to allow more "panic room" because of the less than modern braking characteristics of the car.

With respect to engine conversions....there was a really great fellow in our club a number of years ago who had a Datsun engine and automatic transmission in his TD. Why? He was very crippled in his lower body, and was unable to operate a clutch. Should he give up his beloved MG just so that people like capdave can continue to carry the sacred banner of originality? I don't think so. But I'm certain that if a similar condition afflicts capdave, he will give up square rigged motoring so as not to sully the purity of his car.
Craig Cody

I wasn't going to get into this "discussion", but just for the record here's what I did.

My TF race car has quite a bit of "go" and just as much "stop". Fit a set of Bob Grunau's Alfin brake drums and send your brake shoes to Ted Schumacher at T.S. Imports (check out his web-site)and get him to install carbon kevlar linings. He says they are guaranteed to stop even a T-type and from my experience he's correct. I'm sure that for an ordinary road car the standard drums are just fine with the kevlar linings. To keep everything working you MUST sleeve all cylinders and drive the car several times a month.

Have fun!
Reed Yates

This thread was discussed between 01/09/2001 and 06/09/2001

MG TD TF 1500 index

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