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MG TD TF 1500 - Freeze Plug Update
| Hi All Received the center top freeze plug today, after having to pull the leaking one in my recently rebuilt engine. I ordered two just in case I screw up the first one. Now the question In looking at the archives, folks say find a 48mm plug. Ones I got today are 47.96mm and 47.80 (using a digital micrometer). the 47.97 is what I would call a loose fit. I know it will tighten when I flatten the center, but should not the plug be just a little snug? According to the archives, it appears there were issues with some of the plugs a few years back. And given mine leaked, I wondered how have these been doing lately? John Twist left a comment on the use of a sealer on one thread. They do not use one oun the inside, but do use JB weld on the outside. I know others have mentioned using specific products for sealing. Any new advice or results? |
| Bruce Cunha |
| Get a Dorman plug, or better yet use an expanding rubber plug or 2 piece expanding plug, each have a nut & bolt in the center. The top center plugs have a habit of falling out, even when the correct size is installed by a professional engine builder. Len |
| Len Fanelli |
| Bruce, I was invovlved with previous comment on this issue. As you know I have always used the metric stainless steel variety.I again purchased a set from Veales here in Perth only 2 weeks ago.Offered up the 48mm type to my 2 spare Wolseley 4/44 motors and my current project a TF1500 motor this morning after reading your query and found that, as I always have,they are a very, very close starting fit.They will need only a small amount of 'expansion'with a drift to seal well and good! I use Tretite No.2 steaming sealant to assist sealing around the edges.Have'nt had a renewed core plug ever leak.I have'nt got a digital micrometer. Cheers Rob. Grantham |
| Rob. Grantham |
| Rob - Where can we order these stainless steel core plugs? and where can Tretite #2 sealant b obtained? Cheers - Dave |
| David DuBois |
| bruce, the plugs should need a little persuasion to install before you set them with the drift. tom |
| tm peterson |
| Bruce your not alone. I've got maybe 20 miles on my rebuilt and noticed antifreeze on the floor. Can't see it back in there even with a mirror. Finnally started pulling the carbs off tonight and moved the exhaust mainifold out far enough to see what was going on. Sure enough the center plug is seeping. It's a major pain to pull everything back off to get to it with all the sheet metal back in place but it has to be done. I was wondering what size it was so I can get another from the machine shop. Now I know. I can't blame them as I supplied the plugs I ordered from Moss. Guess I'll be using some JB Weld on the new one. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| I haven't hit the engine rebuild stage of my TF resto yet, but was just wondering... I have used JB Weld for a few other projects aroung the house, including re-erecting a 16' high cast aluminium lamp post. My point is, JB Weld has incredible gripping power. Would using this to seal the freeze plugs not make future removal impossible? |
| R Zatrepalek |
| I like to spread a bit of Permatex #2 in the groove before putting in the core plug. Does not set hard & not affected by gas & oil. |
| Carl Floyd |
| Tom You now have me a bit concerned. The plug supplied (I am assuming MOSS,but have to check with Jeff Zorn to make sure)did not fit snugly prior to indenting it. I plan to use some JB weld around it as John Twist recommeded, but I now have to wonder if we still are getting a plug that is just a smidgen to small. Given the difference between the size of the two new plugs I received. This would appear likely. The use of an expanding plug may just be a better solution for now. Since you cannot see this with the manifold on, it would not be visible. I will check with Jeff and then if this is MOSS, ask them to reexamine their stock. I would say from using a micrometer on the opening that 48mm should be the absolute smallest. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| Talked to my machinest today and he said he only had problems with two freeze plugs in the last 40 years. Well, I'm going to double number in one go. The upper center plug was leaking enough to stripe the paint down the the block and leave quarter sized puddles on the floor after a 15 minute run. The lower front plug shows signs of seepage also. I'm going to get the 48 mm plug for the upper.Does anybody have ant thoughts on using a plug with a flange verse the traditional saucer. Does anybody have the size for the lower front plug? I looked at a photo of the block before I took it in and it looked like it had been leaking at almost every plug. I drove her around on short runs for about 15 to 20 minutes a half dozen times without the grille, fenders and side panels just in case I had somethig like this come up and I could deal with it, without having to fight the sheetmetal for clearence. Real pain to get to now. I've got a tube of permatex harding # 2 sealer I'm planing on using and believe I'll coat the outside seam with some JB Weld as well. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| Hi, David and Led, The sizes of the core plugs are 48mm(the 2 large ones)and 35mm(the 6 smaller ones).They are available here in Western Australia at Veales Auto Parts,REDCLIFFE. WESTERN AUSTRALIA.6104 Veales telephone number is 08 936636115.You will need the entry code no. to Australia if ringing from USA.Ask for Sam.The part nos. for stainless steel plugs are: (indicate you want the original saucer type):35mm-CPA75215($2.4OAU ea)and the 48mm-CPA81615($3.70AU ea) I always feel that core plugs are one of the cheapest but most important parts of the motor. To fit the modern 'cup shaped core plugs' you really need to have the blocks core plug holes milled out.I have seen this done here on a few T-TYPE motors here but regard it as a totally unncessary expense unless your motors hole edges are very badly pitted or corroded. Now for the sealant query.Veales now don't supply Tretite 2 sealing compound.Instead they now supply Permatex 2 sealing compound as Carl has used.I am sure they have this product in USA. Hope this helps.Come to think of it,if you want me to purchase the stainless steel plugs and send them on to you I could do that.PS I have no affiliation with Veales! Cheers Rob. Grantham |
| Rob Grantham |
| The 48 mm plugs are stock Volvo parts. That's where I get mine. |
| Bud Krueger |
| Caution here! I have been posting this since last year everytime the subject of re-build has come up! Because the shop that did my re-build went "belly-up" I can not be sure where the (first) freeze plugs came from. I can tell you the mechanic was very familure with XPAG/XPEG engines and has done many of them. (And has an excellent reputation for quality work) First "set" of plugs came from his "normal source" ...second set he got from Napa! (I think that is what he said) First set lasted about 250 miles when the large one under the exhaust manifold "popped" at speed and took #2 & #3 pistons with it! New set has been in about 500/600 miles now. He told me the first "set" were too small and stood by his work stating he should have checked the size closer but did not because he had never had this problem before! Just by how many times this subject has come up in the last year or so seems like a good reason to go at it with some caution...IMHO! Cheers, David 55 TF1500 #7427 |
| David Sheward |
| NAPA Auto Parts is where we got the core plugs for my Dad's "63 MGB. No problems to report. |
| Carl Floyd |
| Gentlemen, I've used the Moss core plugs for years with no problems. However I'm not really fond of mild steel plugs as they tend to rot out. For about the last 15 years, I have been making my own large plugs from 2" Doorman brass plugs that I turn down to 48mm in the lathe. The mistake most people make is using 1-7/8" plugs. They will go in nicely and flatten out fine, but when the block get hot and expands, they will fall out! The small plugs are Doorman #P19S, these are actually a inch size plug, but are with in 0.005" of the correct size. I've never had a problem using the cut-down 2 incher's or the P19S's in the last 40 or fifty engines I've done. Ciao for now, Ben T. |
| Ben Travato |
| Ben T, Thats an interesting bit. Moss advertises the large plug as 1.812". Thats smaller than the 1 7/8" -1.875 that you say will fall out. I don't have the resources to make my own but the 48mm recomended is unavailible from NAPA and every machine shop in town. If the 1.875 isn't going to work than why should I expect the 1.812 from Moss that just failed to work? Should I just have a go with the 1 7/8" or keep looking for a 48mm? By the way how's my super charger coming? LaVerne |
| LaVerne |
| Ben Any possibility you might make a few for sale? I am somewhat in agreement with the others. I have been installing freeze plugs since I was 16 and never had a problem. Got a reply from MOSS today. They said they checked a few of the stock and they are OK (whatever that means). They gave me a nice bit of instructions on how to properly install the plug. Including the importance of cleaning the opening, and using a drift large enough. (I was already doing what they said) I just do not feel that when you put the plug in it should have a very slight up and down movement prior to fixing it in place. Given the number of threads that list having this particular center FP leak or come out. There has to be a problem. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| Hi Guys I wandered across from the Spridget board, with some interest in this topic as since doing my car's engine rebuild I have had to replace one welch plug and I can see the other two plugs on the side of the engine starting to seep, and I figure the one on the back will also need replacing. Two points I want to raise: 1. When I replaced the first plug there was a loose fit in the hole. I do not recall up and down movement, but I did a trial fit before cleaning out the hole and had no difficulty removing the plug by giving it a tap with my finger and bouncing it out. 2. Somebody has raised the possibility of JB Weld making future removal difficult. I have also read of soft sealants, especially silicone sealants acting as 'lubricants' and making it easier for the plugs to pop out. For the plug that I replaced - my first ever - I used what I believe to be the time-honoured method of fitting a new plug, viz., starting with a small-ish (3/8") socket in the centre of the plug, administering persuasion with a BFH and moving to a larger socket. That was about 500km ago and all seems well. I used no sealants, but made sure that everything was clean. I suspect that those of us who are reasonably competent at this, but far from expert tend to overthink what should be really simple jobs. I am certainly guilty! James |
| James Reinhardt |
| For what it is worth.... I see a lot of "caution" about being "clean"....I am sure my engine was clean when re-built the block was completly acid washed. As long as I see this subject come up I'll be hopping up and down on my little "soap-box" yelling "check it" "check it". Not to be argumenative ...just because if it saves one "T" owner from the sinking feeling I got when mine went ....it's worth the trouble! The fact that there is so little in our archives about this problem untill about a year or so ago seems to be a "red-flag" to me! Cheers, David 55 TF1500 #7427 |
| David Sheward |
| I also had the same problems with the freeze/core plugs on my rebuild in 1995. They came from the large supplier on the west coast. They were sent as a packaged set. The machine shop that did the work installed them correctly, put after about 3 years of service the same ones that failed on your car failed on mine. I can't remember the sizes from the large supplier, but they were in American sizes (7/8 and 1- 5/16") not metric. Abingdon Spares carries the correct metric sizes, do yourself a favor and order a set from them. I've also gotten brass plugs from NAPA in the past, but the young auto parts clerks now employed there can't look them up on the computer and won't take the time to search the boxes for them. Hope this helps,John |
| John Hambleton |
| Jeff Zorn is talking to MOSS. I asked him to check a bit further than the first answer I got. He is following up. I know MOSS reps periodically look at this board. It would be nice to see if they can assist in helping determine why so many are failing. Even with steel, a freeze plug should not rust through in a couple of years. And I can't believe all of us are installing it poorly. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| Well boys I went out and got acouple of 1 7/8" plugs. I believe Moss is correct with their descrption as the new plugs are ever so slightly bigger. I also picked up a 46mm doorman steel small lip plug. There is no way that a 46mm plug will fit in the failed opening. So at the risk of repeated failure I used the permetex sealer and did the best I could at pounding it home. It aint easy fighting the manifold still attached to the down pipe and muffler on a TF but its set. Finished it off with a liberal amount of JB Weld and will hope for the best. I'll be keeping a keen eye on it for quite sometime. By the way John, I don't deal with the snott nosed counter boys at NAPA. I always go straight to the owner of this large and very succesful store. Brother in law has owned it for 20 years. Purchased from his dad where he had worked since 1968. He did find 12 in the California warehouse and 8 more in another distant location that he offered to overnight for me. I declined and decided to caution to the wind and have a go with the 1 7/8". I'll let you all know how it works out. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| No leaks after 15 miles. Had an intresting day. Received a phone call at work about noon from a distraught fellow who was stranded at a gas station off I-70 with his 70 BGT on his way from Denver area to San Fransico. fuel pump gone bad. Someone had told him I was an MG guy and gave him the work number. Drove 15 miles home and picked up the new faucet pump that I had temperarerly mounted to the TF and back 15 miles and put it in the GT and sent him on his way. Unfortunatly back to Denver to get another vehicle. Nice guy but don't see his name on the B board. Asked where he got my name from figuring that he had called NAPA and my brother in law had given it to him. No he had called four garages (must be a hundred in the book) of which none said they could help him but some one at one of the garages heard the conversation and said they new that I had some MG's and might be able to help. Have no idea who it was. Weird Huh? First full tank of gas in the TF. No antifreeze leaks (yet). One oil spot a little smaller than the size of a dime from the rear of the bell housing. Further checking for leaks I see that one of the few things I didn't rebuild (fuel punp) was seeping at the rubber seal. I did take it apart and file the points to get it to keep enough fuel for the engine . Looks like a rebuild or perhaps a new pump soon. Tried adjusting the repo tri-pod head lights tonight. Looks like I have the leads swapped on the dimmer switch. Looks a lot easiesr to swap the connections at the bullet connectors than pull the dimmer switch. Oh well. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| LaVerne, You are a gem. Nice day brightener to read about the first thing in the morning! warmly, dave |
| Dave Braun |
| LaVerne, "a keen eye on it for quite sometime" For sure! I don't want to make you paranoid...however, our TF showed no sign of overheating on the gauge and was fine for first couple of hundred miles. It was only when we got up on the freeway the next day and at speed that ours "popped" ...we smelled anti freeze and shut down right away, but it was too late for #3 & #4 pistons they were gone! Temp gauge still did not show overheating untill about 45min later when I carefully took the cap off! Cheers, David |
| David Sheward |
This thread was discussed between 16/07/2006 and 21/07/2006
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