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MG MGF Technical - Worn hydraulic tappets

'96 F 1.8 engine. Has just had 60.000 mls service and all regular service at MG/Rover dealer. Recently it showed bleu smoke pulling away just after cold start. Thereafter ticking noise in angine. Dealer has taken head apart and has told it has 8 damaged intake valve tappets. He does not know cause of the problem.
Has anyone heard this before?
Maarten

Could this be caused by low oil levels?

Could be an oil leak from somewhere. Could even have been caused by an HGF. I sometimes think they should have fitted an oil pressure dial instead of oil temperature.
Tony Smith

No idea about reasons, but I slightly recall several complains from reading the archive about early MGFs.

In most cases only one tappet made troubles but they were not able to identify the individual trouble maker. So they went and changed them all.

Sorry about it
Dieter
Dieter Koennecke

Have seen this before on VVC followers on engines run on Mobil 1, as well as worn valve stem seals.These items can be changed with the correct tools without removing the head fairly cheaply.
mike.
mike

Common enough problem - always seen on CVH ford engines

Just get them pulled out and replaced - shouldnt be expensive - if it is - ask why!!!!

Agree with the oil comment
tony

My '96 F clatters away too- for quite a prolonged time until the engine is pretty much warmed through. Thankfully no blue smoke though!

I wouldn't be at least surprised if I discover that its a similar problem to yours Maarten- can you describe the ticking sound in more detail?
Rob Bell


Why is Mobile 1 oil linked to this problem, what properties does it pocess that could cuase this effect ?

Rover seem to be committed to Mobil 1, you would have thought the Rover engineers would have spotted something in all the engine testing if it had a negative affect ?

Sounds like a bit of guesswork to me.
Ralph

>Rover seem to be committed to Mobil 1,

IMO contracted, doubt on commited due technical advantages. The MGR accountants and marketing guys will know.

Why ?
Cause on the continent they (MGR) sticked 'Veedol Oil' stickers on nearly each new mgf service flap until about the end of 1998. Dunno whether they still do, but most of the MGFs I saw here had this sticker on from new. ... and I saw a lot in the last threee years with open boot ;)
http://www.lame-delegation.de/mgf-net.de/mods/carl_PIC00006.jpg
Notice, this MGF is registered in Sweden. Your Welcome, Carl, and thanks for the picture !!
BTW 'Empfiehlt' is german an means 'recommends' ;)

Back to the header.
Echoing Ralph...
now, why is Mobil 1 or any Oil linked to this problem ?

Dieter



Dieter Koennecke

Hi,

Maarten, there are quite a few things here. A light ticking from the engine, increasing with revs, could well be hydraulic tappet rattle, if one or more fails to hold oil pressure. It's not easy to identify which tappets are ticking either from listening or inspection, so what was the damage the mechanic identified in eight of the tappets? Was it scuffing on the cam to tappet surface? In which case this would not cause the ticking noise. It's strange that all the inlet tappets are damaged. Could there be any blockage in the oil passages on that side?

Blue smoke from the engine is usually a symptom of worn rings/bores, or valves/guides/seals: lets hope it's the valve seals as Mike suggests. I don't think that tappet failure will cause it, or tappet replacement cure it. I wonder if there is some deeper underlying cause of both, perhaps oil supply or contamination problems? Does the car use oil, and are there any other symptoms? Do you know the history of the car?

I had a ticking from one of my tappets ('98 1.8) at 13k. All were replaced to make sure the right one was caught. It isn't a quick job: the cambelt has to be loosened, cam cover, cam carrier, cam gears and cams removed, and then the tappets replaced and everything put back again. As each tappet is approx £12, and there are 16 of them, then with VAT and labour the final bill may well exceed £400 or so. (Although my car was 27 months old and well out of warranty Rover paid the entire cost.) Valve seal replacement will of course add to this.

I can't believe that Mobil 1 will damage the engine in any way, by far the opposite in fact. I can't remember which oil producer said that no engine problem had ever been caused by its oil failing, but this would probably be true of all quality oils. There are wrong grades, blocked filters or galleries, low levels, contamination, etc. but the oil itself is extremely unlikely to fail, and Mobil 1 even less so - it is a very high quality oil.

I don't want to be gloomy, so I'd get the mechanic to change all the valve seals and replace all the tappets, take out a second mortgage, and hope that this cures the problem. I'd even use Mobil 1!

Regards, Kes.
Kes


So come on 'mike' who ever you are, where is your evidence about Mobile 1 - sounds like your talking out your fat ar*e ?
Ralph

I have a very low toned ticking aswell. This is down to an issue with the exhaust though. There appears to be uneven pressure (more in the left pipe than the right). Not sure yet whether this is the exhaust itself or a gasket somewhere. I will get it checked out properly one day. Probably when I treat TLRR to a new sports exhaust.

Cheers

Kieren
Kieren Gibson

Mobil One controversy,
In about 1983/4 when it was first released it was found, although it had superior characteristics to mineral oil generally, upon breakdown, it produced a very abrasive material (carbon based) and would cause rapid engine wear. This was most evident in the racing arena where oil is subjected to more severe conditions.
Mobil rapidly changed the formula so this no longer happened.
The next argument was, such a thin oil would not protect the upper engine areas at engine start up, since all the "thin oil" would have drained into the sump. I find this a weak argument, since a thinner oil will reach the upper engine more quickly after start up. Also, although the oil drains into the sump, there is still a coating left on the upper components, although thinner it is still effective.
I have been interested in reading some of the VVC problems (I have 1.8i), and many seem to reflect poor upper head lubrication. Is it possible there is a design fault, or a common failure occurring in the oil flow to the VVC head? This seems more likely than Mobil One being at fault.
george

Ralph - You ask 'Mike who ever you are' then you tell us he has a 'fat ar*e'!

Question:- if you dont know who he is how do you know he has a fat ar*e?

Just curious.

Ted
Ted Newman

Ralph, I have video footage to catagorically prove that I haven't got a fat ar*e as you suggest, this evidence is held by the Spurious V8 club of America, you are quite free to contact them about this for proof.
Mike.
PS re read my comments on my previous posting as I haven't said Mobil 1 is at fault, it was a statement of observations.
mike


You're right Ted, a big assumption on my behalf, let me change that to : "sounds like your talking bollox"

Anyway, if you know him, does he have a fat one ?
Ralph


Mike,

If you are so addiment about your obseravtions, but do not want to 'imply' anything then I think you've blown it. As someone who deals with lots of MG bits then it is a pretty hefty indirect link with Mobile 1 being responsable. Before scaring the BBS'ers ( of who'm there will be many Mobile1 users ) with this sort of stuff you need to expand a bit more on evidence ie numbers, effects, reasons etc. George has done well here with a bit of background. If not then why bother raising the issue in the first place, its gonna stoke a fire somewhere ?
Ralph

I have not tried on my F, but when I switched to Mobil1 in my previous car with hydraulic tappets I found it took a long time for the tappets to stop knocking after starting the engine from cold, upon switching to Castrol RS synthetic oil (which is not so "thin") the problem went away. So I have never gone back to Mobil1.
Jason H
Jason H

>>In about 1983/4 when it was first released it was found, although it had superior characteristics to mineral oil generally, upon breakdown, it produced a very abrasive material (carbon based) and would cause rapid engine wear. This was most evident in the racing arena where oil is subjected to more severe conditions.
Mobil rapidly changed the formula so this no longer happened.<<

I am very interested by this statement George that seems to provide a plausible mechanism by which mobil One could contribute to the excess wear that Mike has observed on certain VVC engines.

When one merges this statement to the observations of the guys who race K-series engines (MGF and Elise) who note rapid oxidation of oil if there is no oil cooler present, and the fact that MGF oil temperatures often exceed 120 degrees celcius even on 'normally driven' road cars, then there is a clear prediliction to oil degradation. So it warrants the question: at what temperature does Mobil One start to break down, and how does it compare to the competition?
Rob Bell

Rob,
When Mobil first produced synthetic oil it was heralded as the answer to all problems. Life expectancy of 20,000 miles, maintaining density at much higher and much lower temperatures.
However, the draw back was the abrasive qualities of the residues produced upon break down.
The cars on the track were operating at much higher temperatures than in normal motoring, and the residues produced did cause engine failures.
I am unaware of the temperatures and conditions that were causing this.
However a Porche is expected to operate with oil temperatures up to 375 F. After that expect engine failure. That would be about 156 celcius. So expect oil breakdown to occur at about 160 celcius.
I would expect that if my oil temperature needle was above the 150 mark something is going to give way soon, and it's a good indication I should stop doing whatever I'm doing that's cause such a high temperature, even if I'm using Mobil 1.
George

150 Celcius seems to be where the oil temp guage is red-lined on the MGF, so perhaps this is relevant to the 'recommended' oil Mobil One?

Seems to me that Simon Scutham's relocated thermostat and oil-water oil cooler is becomming a better and better idea...
Rob Bell

In my opinion the reason there may be a problem in using fully synthetic oils is not the lubrication properties but the ability of the oil pump to pressurise a thinner oil to the required pressures required by the tappets

Same sort of scenario as the Slick 50 additives in that they reduce friction which is good - but not for an oil pump !
tony

Tony,
I think you may be on to something. I believe, especially in the VVC K series, there isn't enough upper head lubrication. I don't necessarily believe that Mobil 1 is the problem. I don't really know anything about the K engine myself, I'm more a general all rounder, having worked many engines, but there certainly is enough evidence around to support the theory.
If the upper head overheats you'll hear rattling noises. You will also lose hydralic tappets, valve seals, and anything else in there (I'm not sure what's in the VVC, I'll have to start studying).
The other symptom will be HGF on a greater scale than expected, especially in aluminium engines.
I'm an engineer, electronic though, not mechanical. I think it is a problem well worth investigating, especially on engines with symptoms, like rattling head gear.
Anyone out there willing to have a look/see???
George

I am pasting a item from Honest John's motoring column in last Saturday's Daily Telegraph on this topic.

Could this be an explanation for possible reported problems associated with the use of Mobil 1?

Nick

"Flushing the lube

I have a diesel engine that has been used with ordinary oil and would like to change to synthetic. Do I just change over, or is there a flushing procedure I should follow?
J.K.R., via email

Change the first fill of synthetic after 1,000 miles and the second after 2,000. The synthetic oil acts as a flushing agent and will dislodge all manner of carbonised and otherwise solidified crud inside your engine. If you don't change the first and second fills of synthetic oil fairly smartish, the crud will become spended in it and could block a narrow oilway. The alternative is to stick with what you have been using."
Nick

well that could be the answer then - dislodged crud in the oil feed gallerys to the valves - perhaps a good flushing additive is required prior to the oil change?

This is from a pure motorcycle veiw - many fully synthetic oils can affect many other items - oil pressure to the head - on kwaks it can cause oil starvation- leading to cam failure - it can also cause drag and reduce engine performance

Does the F have a "non draining oil filter" ??? This would ensure immeadiate oil feed to he head rather than having to wait for the filter to fill up on start up !

On older cars you can get especially thick oils to help the oil pump produce pressure to the head - halfords did a range dependant on mileage!

Also in the realms of motorcycles - it is a known fact that while manufacturers specify an oil change every 3000 miles the oil has lost most of its protective qualitys after 1000 miles - the last 2000 miles produce "acceptable levels of wear"

Valve seal wear can be seen by blue smoke appearing from the exhaust "when backing off the throttle"
Look in your mirror at 60mph and then back off the throttle - then back on - you will see a puff of blue smoke

If blue smoke is apparant all the time - you have a bore/piston ring problem! (unless there is a engine breather tube blockage!)

Any idea what oil lotus specify for the K series ?
tony

This thread was discussed between 29/10/2001 and 01/11/2001

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