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MG MGF Technical - Uneven Front Tyre Wear

Can someone please advise me how to prevent uneven front tyre wear.

A Sloan
Andrew Sloan

Andrew,

With a name like yours (A Sloan!) you should be working in London.

ride height and front wheel alignment are the key to front tyre wear on the F. The F does seem a tad sensitive in this area.

If you have just aquired the car or (better still considering it) I would suggest getting the supplying garage to check and certify that the alignment on your car is correct via an alignment print out.

Hope this help

Patrick
Patrick

There have been several threads previously on this matter which you should see. But to sumarize:

Check ride height
Check wheel alignment
Check tyre pressures
Don't drive on two wheels ;-)

Ralph
Ralph Gadsby

Just for the info,

I had my wheel alignement checked yesterday because the tyre wear was important and lokking bizar.
Results : 10° in difference between the two rear wheels with only one fitted correctly (done with the infrared FACOM internet connected system)

No wonder, the wear looked weired.

That was just the beginning, my garage then decided to take off the 16' alloy wheels (abingdon) and didn't manage to do it smooothly.

I now need a new direction column, when I just wanted to change the brake pads.

I hope that Rover will pay for the tires (16' Eagle F1's), because my car is only 10 000 miles with dead tyres.
Tschann

Hi Nicolas,

I have the same problem with the front tyres and will go to the dealer this week-end in Normandy.
I'm happy because the dealer seems to know about this common problem (his own words)
I hope he knows how to correct it!

Where did you check the wheels alignment?

Jerome

PS: do you have your K&N fitted?
Jérôme

Conclusion:

5° difference in front wheels alignement (both wheels were not really parallele) (corrected)
Front left hand ride height too low (corrected)

I wonder if the problem of front tyres wearing is completely solved (seems too easy to me ...)
Future will tell (once I'll change the tyres...)

Jerome

PS: dealer provided me with a Rover 111 while the F was in the garage.
Jérôme

A well trodden path this subject I know but I'm beginning to lose sleep over this issue, despite a lot of reading.....

A number of things:

1) Does anybody know why the Rover tracking figures are the opposite to those one would normally expect for a rear wheel drive car??

2 a,b & c) The tyre wear is said to be Camber and Toe related. But if just camber surely the wear would initially be high until the load across the tyre became even when consistent wear would resume. This would result in a gradual increase in wear across the tyre rather than the very sharp increase witnessed over the inside 20mm throughout the (rather short) life of the tyre?? If just toe the tread pattern would show signs of feathering as the tyre scrubs at an angle, but again, across the entire surface?? So is this a combination of the two. Despite having tracking set to correct specifications and a ride height anywhere between 350 and 390 (great fun watching small children walk under the car in Sainsburys car park) tyre wear, has still been evident. For the last 8000 miles on the front tyres ride height was always above 375mm, toe set to spec, and I still had 5mm left on the outside with next to nothing on the inner.

3) The wear pattern does not run evenly over the circumference of the tyre. i.e. if you run your hand front to back you feel a lip as you pass over each part of the tread pattern as if the rear of each part of the pattern is wearing faster than the front.... What does that mean???

4) Those of you who have had your cars lowered and tracking adjusted to toe in. How many have resolved a previous wear problem with this set up and, importantly, how many miles have you done??

5) For Mike Satur assuming you don't, understandably, want to give away your add value. What are the reasons for you changing the toe settings?

Any input gratefully received.

Stuart
Not sleeping very well.............
Stuart

I have killed my front tyres in 6.5k miles gentle driving. The problem was found at 2 year service - see thread on MGF General BBS. The car is unmodified.
Rover have passed warranty query on to mg specialist as this is not warranty work they can sanction under goodwill and is unusual (??!!)
Will report back when they have decided how much they will contribute.
Steve

I read these threads about uneven tyre wear with great interest. My car has now done 19,000 miles on the original tyres and still has approximately 5mm left on each tyre, front and back, ( I checked them with a gauge at the weekend). I know...i don't drive fast enough!...*grin*. The wear is also even across each tyre.

I guess it goes to show that there is a set-up that gives 'normal' tyre wear. I had my car adjusted to Mike Satur's modified tracking setting front and rear a couple of months ago and as i reported at the time i am delighted with the result, the car is much more precise and fun to drive, the steering is much more linear. Also there has been no acceleration in wear of either front or rear tyres.

I thought i would include below all the suspension geometry information from when my car had the Satur tracking set-up so that owners with uneven tyre wear can compare with my car which as i said has no accelerated tyre wear. The message is that is your info is the same as mine (not the tracking if you have the Rover specs), then it must be something else that is causing the wear, maybe subframe alignment?

Note: the Satur tracking is toe in not toe out at the front and toe out not toe in at the rear..i think thats right...correct me if i'm wrong from the figures!

Front ride height - 349mm
Rear ride height - 347mm

(my setting first followed by spec range)

FRONT AXLE

Caster
left 4 deg 37 min : Rover spec 4 deg 5 min to 5 deg 55 min
right 4 deg 35 min : Rover spec as above

Camber
left -0 deg 31 min : Rover spec -1 deg 0 min to 0 deg 0 min
right -0 deg 38 min : Rover spec as above

Toe
left O deg 5 min : Satur spec, 0 deg 4 min to 0 deg 12 min
right 0 deg 4 min : Satur spec as above
(Rover spec -0 deg 8 min to -0 deg 2 min, or at least it was the last time i had it set by a dealer)

SAI (King Pin inclination?)
left 10 deg 53 min : Rover spec 11 deg 10 min to 12 deg 10 min
right 11 deg 57 min : Rover spec as above

Included angle
left 10 deg 21 min : Rover spec 11 deg 6 min
right 11 deg 21 min :

Setback
-0 deg 8 min


REAR AXLE

Camber
left -1 deg 35 min : Rover spec -1 deg 30 min to -0 deg 30 min
right -1 deg 23 min : Rover spec as above

Toe
left -O deg 4 min : Satur spec, -0 deg 12 min to -0 deg 4 min
right -0 deg 4 min : Satur spec as above
(Rover spec 0 deg 16 min to 0 deg 4 min)

Thrust angle
0 deg 0 min


Anyway, if you've got unusual tyre wear, have a look at comparing your figures from your last tracking session to mine and see if there are any differences, i'd be interested in the results.
Paul

I have been reading the sorry tales on ride height, toe in/out and camber for some time - though I would share some thoughts on the matter.

My view on the root cause of all our tyre problems in that fact that the ride height changes so much compared to a 'normal' spring/damper set up. It's not toe or camber as such that's the problem, its just they are effected so much by the rising and lowering of the ride height. I am sure you'll find other cars running similar suspension angles at a constant height and not experience a single wear problem.

I owned (when I was a boy racer in the early 80s !) a MG Metro that had been set up to Challenge spec, i.e. Poly Bushes, negative camber on the front arms, engine mods, low profiles, etc etc. The car basically ran sat on the bump stops, it was so low - so the ride height wasn't changing !. With serious amounts of negative camber and I mean serious, slight toe in at the front. The tyres were always evenly worn and I got through a few sets of P7s. As I was a boy racer I really hammered this car in corners/roundabouts - it was quite easy to 3 wheel it. The front is also heavier - so this should have increased the wear. I think the poly bushes helpes keep the setup tight - but beware of the wear on these bushes 2 or 3 years down the road !

I got quite obsessed with the Ride Height on the F last summer and carried a tape round with me and probably measured twice a day. The effect of temperature is unreal, some days the car would be down at 360mm others at 380mm, so on a day to day basis the Toe and Camber is being altered by the height of the car, due to the angles of the lower arms and steering arms. You can illustrate this by jacking the car and taking the weight of the wheel, just watch the angles change.

I think when you set to toe in, if the ride height changes you will either go parallel or more toe in - neither is bad - in extreme cases you would eventually wear an outside edge - wouldn't that be a novelty.

When you are initially toe out at the front, you may just get parallel as the height increases, but you will go more toe out as the height reduces. The most common problem that we all have is the ride height reducing, as apart from the summer months the temperature is less than that of the workshop where the height was originally set.

There's little that can be done to keep the ride height absolutely constant so that's why the toe in setup is better. Going back to the MG Metro Challenge days, the racers were always having to check ride heights due to the temperature changes.

Any thoughts on the theory above ?

Stuart re: Question 3.

I had this problem on the right front until today when I replaced both front tyres - 195/50 Yoko's.

Initially I thought it was caused a bearing as the wear also created more road noise - a kind of drumming. I had Rover check all the wheel bearings but nothing was found. The feedback from the BBS was to check the balance of the rear wheel, as the front and rear hydrogas units are linked and this could cause an 'osolation' through the suspension to the lighter front end.

I didn't get the balance checked out until today, the tyre was shot anyway so I figured I wait until it was illegal until I replaced it - the rear on the right was very slightly out of balance (10grms) - so this has been corrected. The drumming has gone ! It was definitely caused by the tyre wear. (Just to be clear on the wear that I had , effectively the tyre has flat spots around the circumference on the inside edge)

The tyre fitter said that this effect is normally caused by a faulty damper, but mentioned that you can predict what a fault is with Hydrogas - I tend to agree.

I am going to get the tracking set to Satur spec now as it agrees with my ride height theory - time will tell if this is the solution !
Jamie

I think Jamie is correct in saying that the ride height may affect tyre wear. All i can say is that my car also goes up and down, its 350ish today in cool garage but goes up to 380ish in the height of summer, (i have summer pictures of it in the 'stilts' position), but my car has never suffered from any uneven tyre wear, (with Rover or Satur tracking specs).

Also we had a MG Metro for 6 years in the 90's that used to go up and down too but again it had even tyre wear, the tyres lasting over 30k miles.

I think that comment in another recent thread about the duff chassis jig at Mayflower is very interesting.
Paul

Good news about outcome of tyre wear problem. See thread on MGF General for more info.
Steve

Jamie et al...

My car used to go up and down like a yo-yo, anywhere between 350 and 390mm........

I had the hydrogas fluid sucked out and replaced, since then over the 7 degree temperature change the ride height has moved no more than a few mm.......

For those of you who have big changes in ride height you may want to consider this as an option. As somebody pointed out to me air expands a lot more than fluid under temerature change so if you have air in your suspension it will move around a lot. From my experience this seems to hold true. The car has also had a complete personality change since the work and for the better.

Still getting caned in the tyre department.

Still losing sleep of questions 1 and 2, anybody??

1) Does anybody know why the Rover tracking figures are the opposite to those one would normally expect for a rear wheel drive car??

2 a,b & c) The tyre wear is said to be Camber and Toe related. But if just camber surely the wear would initially be high until the load across the tyre became even when consistent wear would resume. This would result in a gradual increase in wear across the tyre rather than the very sharp increase witnessed over the inside 20mm throughout the (rather short) life of the tyre?? If just toe the tread pattern would show signs of feathering as the tyre scrubs at an angle, but again, across the entire surface?? So is this a combination of the two. Despite having tracking set to correct specifications and a ride height anywhere between 350 and 390 (great fun watching small children walk under the car in Sainsburys car park) tyre wear, has still been evident. For the last 8000 miles on the front tyres ride height was always above 375mm, toe set to spec, and I still had 5mm left on the outside with next to nothing on the inner.

Stuart.
Stuart

Just a thought:

Haven't got the Rover spec sheet to hand, but I think the spec for camber for the front wheels is to lean in If so, that will induce wear on the inside edge of teh tyres.

With Rovers spec for the fronts to toe out, that will create another factor for inner edge wear.

But if the fronts toe in, would that 'cancel out' the wearing effect of the 'leaning in' camber?


Stuart, re question 1 - I gave up trying to undertsand why Rover do what they do many years ago. You'll find you have a much more relaxed and happy life if you do the same. Could the real answer be that someone has mistyped the spec and nobodies bothered to check or change it????

Paul
P9 VLS
Fronts toe in - even tyre wear
11,000 miles covered
5mm of tread left


Paul

The Rover camber spec is above in my posting Paul. Looks like i'll have to limit the lenght of posting in furture...*g*..look like everyone got bored before they got to the business end of it.

By the way...as i mention at the end of the above posting, if anyone with accelerated tyre wear has the inclination to check against my data i'd be interested in the result, might even be useful to other people.
Paul

I've had the same problem and bitched to my dealership (Douglas Grahams - Old Windsor) - they went back to the MG Warranty people and agreed to replace both front tyres under warranty - like a few other comments - the mileage on my "F" is low (11.5K in 23 months ) and the inside wear was almost illegal.

Perhaps it's worth hassling your dealerships. Incidentally I managed to get a rear pair of 16" Eagle F1's from Micheldever Tyres (Near Winchester) for about £68.00 each, Nice !
Simon Rose

Hi all

I had the same tyre wear/tracking/ride height problem.

I have a VVC Abingon, 13500 miles, 2 years old. Always serviced on time by the dealer.

Rover agreed to meet 50% of the cost of new front tyres and resetting tracking as a gesture of goodwill.

I'm happy now, I got a new set of tyres for half price.

I had to push my dealer (marginally) to get them to contact the warantee dept and agree this as their first reaction was that it was not covered under the warrantee.

I do have 3 years warrantee.

Shame really as I've had the car 2 years and it's been virtually trouble free apart from the power steering conking out once due to a faulty chip (quickly repaired at no cost under warrantee).

Moral: Do push your dealer as you are likely to get a result. I've also found it pays to mention this web site !!

Smug note in closing: My girlfiend's got a 9 month old BMW 325i Cabriolet and it broke down the week before last with a leaking radiator hose ! Garage couldn't take it in to fix it for a week and a half. German service and reliability eh ?

And finally: I love my MGF. These are just minor niggles, what's a set of tyres between friends !

Tony Hobbs
R286 GHT
VVC Abingon
Tony Hobbs

Hi yall,

This thread has been going on for a while now and since the beginning of it Rover have bought me 4 new 16" Eagle F1's (but I do have to pay for the fitting (that they don't know how to do because the wheels are too big!!!!))
Sorry for you Tony (by the way I also have an Abby)
They also fit the K&N 57i on the car, but it was so poorly done that I had to re-do it myself (it really sounds great now).

Don't they have any training on this car for the damned dealers!!!!!!

By the way, they also changed the steering column (that they had rottened) and the steering wheel isn't straight anymore!!

Are they ever going to make it without destroying anything else on this car??

For those who had similar experiences , I understand!!

Tschann Nicolas

Tschann, did they really replace the steering column? Crumbs! Why? Seems an unlikely job to need doing. The 'offset' steering wheel position is likely to be the result of the tracking re-set, without adequate attention to the position of the steering rack at the time when the toe- angles were adjusted... :o/

Regarding the abnormal tyre wear, here are a couple of extra points to ponder:

1. The tyre wear is primarily a problem with the front tyres.

2. Hydragas suspension is connected front to rear- so ride height at the front changes with ride height at the rear.

3. The front and rear suspension systems are built on identical metro based (front) subframes- the only difference between an MGF front and rear subframe is the fact that the rear subframe carries the engine, and the front the steering rack etc.

I would propose that the fact that ride height physically alters with temperature is not a primary cause of abnormal tyre wear, as this would cause problems with both front and rear tyres.

I would hypothesise that the problem with front tyre wear must be due to the single difference between the front and rear suspension systems- the fact that the front tyres steer.

You'll recall that the king pin is inclined from the useful information that Paul posted above (also known as the caster angle). This means that as the front wheels pivot as you turn the steering, they do not do so around a vertical axis, but rather an inclined axis. Turn the steering wheel on your parked car. On the wheel that is turned out, the top of the wheel is moved out relative to the contact patch on the road- and the wheel that has turned in, the opposite has occured.
What this observation means is that as you turn into a corner, the outside wheel to the corner, the wheel that is turning in, effectively has a larger negative camber than before- there is significantly more load on the inner edge of the tyre tread.

This increased loading of the inner edge of the tyre then exacerbates any other underlying tracking anomoly- with the front tyres set to toe-out, the inner tyre edge is already under load. With a negative camber, the inner tyre edge is loaded still further. Add in the effects of King pin inclination/ caster angle, then you have a potent mixture of contributing factors that lead to your tyres becoming 'tread-challenged' on the inner edge.

There is nothing you can do about the caster angle. It is not adjustable. Camber can be corrected, partially by ride height, or more dramatically, altering the length of the lower wishbone (don't do this at home folks!!! ;o). Therefore the best/easiest/convenient cure is to be very attentive to the toe- angle. And for the reasons that Paul mentioned, toe-in at the front is best.

Stuart, as to the reason why Rover chose to set the front wheels to toe-out, I have no idea. I presume it was to dull the handling response and reduce the chances of an unaware driver pitching themselves into a ditch. What ever the reason, it was daft!
As to Q2, well if the inner tyre edge is the most severely loaded under straight-ahead and cornering conditions, then it is no surprise that it continues to wear rapidly and without check.

End of lengthly posting!!! ;o)

Cheers

Rob
N7 RMB
http://go.to/mgfgallery
Rob Bell

>What this observation means is that as you turn into a corner, the outside wheel to the corner, the wheel that is turning in, effectively has a larger negative camber than before- there is significantly more load on the inner edge of the tyre tread.

And exacerbated by soft suspension as the car will pitch more through a corner, i.e. with air in the fluid?

I had a look at Paul's figures and compared them to mine. Only checked the toe and castor which seemed pretty close. I'll look at the others and do a % difference check tonight...

Stuart.

Stuart

I follow your logic with this turning in wheel and agree and yet i have other logic that works agaimst it (based only on my car)

I would say you turn right more than left in this country - due to roundabouts (which are often taken at speed when traffic allowing - so wearing tyres) this would leed to the passenger side tyre wearing on the inside edge more than the other tyre because it is turning in more.

However on my car all tyres are fine except the drivers side front which is heavily worn on the inside inch or so. the passenger side front tyre has completly even wear.

The wear looks identical the the outside of the passenger side front of my old astra i used to have. caused purely by the roundabout thang.

so i don't know if my one tyre problem is caused by roundabouts (doesn't sem likely if you agree with rob) or is just do to my drivers side front pointing at some funky angle.


another quick question, tread limit - is it 1.7mm now or is that a figure i have plucked from nowhere, and what %age of the tyre has to have enough tread

Matt
Matt

A very interesting observation Matt. I haven't looked at the relative wear between left and right front tyres- mainly becuase no one reports it. So I wonder if the wear pattern that you've reported is comparitively unusual?

I think that this does deserve futher investigation. Have you had the tracking checked Matt? I'd be very interested to hear what the values turned out to be...

Rob
Rob Bell

I want to get the tracking done but i am skint as could be at the moment - and yes i know its a false economy.

OK i'll do it (are we talking about £50) whats the best place to do it at. either near bracknell or near farnborough. deer i guess i could do it at swain & jones, going to see them at lunch time anyway.

i guess if I am getting the alignment checked i might aswell get it set to what is considered better settings. i know all the figures are up there, but quite frankly i'm a mug and haven't got a clue. can somebody give the my what exactly to write on a piece of paper, to give to the garage to do the set up.

and in return i will right a full report on the outcome

cheers
Matt

PS if anybody needs help with my version of english, please ask

sometimes i wish i was foreign, so i had an excuse
Matt

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Top action Matt!!!!

Stefan
Stefan Gibney

Matt, one to try 'as a starter' would be to try going for toe-in front and rear:

Front: toe-in 0 deg 5 min +/- 4 min
Rear: toe-in 0 deg 5 min +/- 4 min

Without the rear tie-bar bush spacers, I wouldn't try anything more extreme at the rear, but the front toe- angle change will give you a very pleasant improvement in steering response/ feel/ turn-in. I have tried this, and it really is great.. currently got parallel all round (with the tie-bar spacers), but that's another story!

Cheers

Rob
Rob Bell

Cheers rob, we seem to be following each other round today.

Right i'm off to S & J and book myself in. and discuss all the other little niggles.(dented boot sill from miss fitting boot lid - guess thats a new one. and if they fix it its bound to make the boot leak!, rusty horn bracket, which they've ordered and too book it in to have the corocion on the wondow suround sorted)
Matt

I had to put the car back to its 15" wheels for the first time since having the car lowered, 16" wheels fitted and a non std tracking due to a sprint at the weekend.

I think my car is set to Toe in front and Parrallel at back.

The car felt fantastic and actually turned in rather than straight on.
One thing I can't wait for and that is to put the 16" wheels back on as the handling is I would say better or definetly braking is and I don't have std tyres on the 15" wheels as I have Falken 195 front and Falken 205 back.

While changing wheels I checked for the dreaded inner wear and so far touch wood there is none.

Tom
Tom Randell

Not getting my alignment done at Swain & Jones, cost well over £100, but they did send me to a place round the corner that do it for £70. anybody heard of or used Merrow Tyres in Farnham. didn't get it don yet - forgot to take the magic numbers with me, tommorow is the day
Matt

Afternoon

Got my alignment done, if you remmeber i have perfect wear except right front which is buggered on the inside (suprise suprise)

It was

Front

Toe
l -0.03
r -0.04

Camber
l 0.02 (outside rover specs, is this a problem?)
r -0.23

everything else near the midle of rover specs.

Rear

Toe
l 0.02
r -0.07 these were well out of shape if you look at what they should be


It was quite interesting talking to the chap aswell, i asked about tyres and like lots of other places mentioned that you go from the standard tyres and it screws it up. i discussed it with him, and he said a few people had had this problem, but i discovered that these were all with similar standard of tyres from different manufacturers, not people who had put your more expensive pair of shoes on like S02s or F1s.

He didn't do Bridgstone so no quote for those, but the price for the F1s (which he didn't realise came in 15") was actually less (!!!!!) than the NTC3s

What was interesting aswell, but not suprising, was a story he told me. A few years back literally every MG Swain & Jones were selling was coming back with chewed up tyres after about 5/6K and they were having to get the tyres replaced and alignment done, paid for by MG. S&J approached MG and put it to them that they should make alignment checks part of the ...whatchamecallit check they do before they sell the car, as just about everycars alignment was out and was costing MG more money in the long run in replacement tyres and still having to fork out for the re alignment. Guess what he response was - NO. typical really.

As far as the new settings, feels OK, not a huge doifference, steering a bit heavier. but i did only drive the 3 miles from farnham to farnborough. so i might notice it more in the long run.

Matt

Paul.

I've just gone through your specs again - are you saying that your rear isn't set to Mike Saturs specs??

(ie ..
Toe
left -O deg 4 min : Satur spec, -0 deg 12 min to -0 deg 4 min
right -0 deg 4 min : Satur spec as above
(Rover spec 0 deg 16 min to 0 deg 4 min)
)

Also, I see that your front and left settings are all different - why is that??

Thanks

Stefan
Stefan Gibney


Stefan Sefan, i'm a bit confused by your questions.

Question 1
"I've just gone through your specs again - are you saying that your rear isn't set to Mike Saturs specs??

(ie ..
Toe
left -O deg 4 min : Satur spec, -0 deg 12 min to -0 deg 4 min
right -0 deg 4 min : Satur spec as above
(Rover spec 0 deg 16 min to 0 deg 4 min)
)"

As you can see my car is set to the lower limit of the
Satur specs. (By the way these specs are supposed to be from Rover according to the guy who does Mike's tracking, they were originally suggested by Rover to a dealer to cut down on accelerated tyre wear, correct me if i'm wong Mike)

Question 2
"Also, I see that your front and left settings are all different - why is that??"

I'm assuming you mean "right and left" here for the front tracking. The equipment is so sensitive that a difference of 1 minute (as my car is) is way within the specs for them actually being considered the same reading.

if its anything else you are refering to and i have made an error please let me know

Hope this helps


Paul

Paul

>> Question 1
"I've just gone through your specs again - are you saying that your rear isn't set to Mike Saturs specs?? <<

D'oh, oh yeah. Sorry - I guess it was a bit late last night <g>.

>> Question 2
"Also, I see that your front and left settings are all different - why is that??" <<

Hmmmm, I wasn't having too good a time was I? I did mean left and right, so your answer was perfect.

So, does anyone know a good place in Zurich that I can take the car to to get the wheel allignment done??

Many thanks

Stefan
Stefan Gibney

Just a quicky to complete my feedback of using the non standard settings as suggested by lots of people, see above.

its good init

so do it.

regualr re alignment will be carried out now aswell, i realise just how much difference it makes,

Steering feels good and the EPAS feels like its doing what its sposed to for the first time in 10 months.

just got to wait and see if the tyres are ok now, cheers for help and advice
Matt

This thread was discussed between 19/04/2000 and 11/05/2000

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