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MG MGF Technical - My engine died.... in the middle of the road..

My car died today.

In the middle of the city, in the mid lane..

the engine knocking noise was apparent in the morning thinking it was tappet noise, but the noise didn't go away so I turned my audio down and started listening to the engine. Didn't sound too good, started rattling and the noise went more frequent as I revved it up.. no it can't be another cam bolt failure.. so I don't know what it is. Towing truck dude (friend of mine) tried to start the car, and it made crackle crackle noise in the engine... :-(

Don't know what it is exactly.. but it's VVC. Maybe its VVC mechanism.. (hope not), or somewhere in the engine. I would rather have a HGF than this kind of a problem.

Looks like bye bye to my F...?
Hanah Kim

Hannah,

Can you describe the noise more fully? Was it a 'sounds like a loose bit of trim' noise, or did it sound more 'engines chewing chunks out of itself'?

I'm sure some of the gurus on here might be able to hazard a guess if you can provide more details. Hopefully it's not too serious and you'll be back on the road soon.

Leigh
Leigh

Hanah, how many miles do you have on the clock? Hope its nothing to serious :-0 Davey.
Davey

Hi guys, thanks for the replies.

My mechanic *roughly* just hoped that it was a fuel pump failing..

My car has just done 40600km. About 28k miles. VVC. Definately not cambolts.


The noise started coming up (I thougt it was just an engine fan getting noisy on the driver's side) / but the noise started getting bit louder and louder this morning, and when I got to the university, it just died in the middle of the road. Was luckly that I was not in my private parking spot, then it would be impossible to get it towed. So I am thankful for that at the least.

The noise was like clacking noise (clack clack). Maybe tappets (that's fully gone) / or VVC mechanism / or fuel pump. But the thing is as just before the engine turned off itself (it didn't shebang / or blow, it just died like stalling it, but more gently) it was loosing its power for last 400 metres. And the oil level was perfect as well as the coolant level. The engine never overheated before, and was just as normal today until its death (well kind of). I opened the boot straight away, but no different kind of smell or anything.

My mechanic is currently working on it (he hopes for a failed fuel pump), but I kinda doubt it.. (it didn't over heat, and engine just turned off itself).

Any thoughts guys? The noise was from the driver's side. My bet is on VVC mechanism...

What happens if I need a new engine? How much do they cost..? (relatively newish engine from Midland or MGF Centre)
Hanah

Hanah,
sounds like bad luck. Why not the fuel pump? This should not cause it to over heat. Just slowly run out of fuel and die quietly, as you explained. Crackle, crackle would be more worrying. The pump is electronic, I assume, so if this stopped working there is probably a sensor on it that would shut down the engine quietly.

There was an advert in the Hearald some weeks back by someone breaking up an F. I rang to ask about a clutch, but they wanted to leave the engine intact. If the worst comes to pass, then maybe there is a complete F engine here in Auckland still. Don't recall if it was a VVC or not. I don't know the phone number now, but maybe the Herald ads are archived some where?

Cheers, Neil
Neil Courtney

hi hannah,

remember me? from turkey istanbul.

same thing happened to me 5 months ago.
it was vvc mechanism right inlet assembly. the left one is also coming soon, maybe in 5000 km.every morning i am listening carefully my engin.
you should change the inlet vvc but also tapets, some valves and some engin works need to be done.

turgut
turgutyaslica

Hi Neil, thanks for the information. That's a good news. I hope there is nothing serious about this, and my fingers crossed for a failed fuel pump. I remember when the towing truck guy came, the engine could barely start (with normal exhaust noise etc), but the crackle noise started to happen, and he backed off from the accelerator. Terry (my mechanic friend) didn't have time to analyse the problem today, but will work on it tomorrow.

Sorry I did get mixed up between fuel pump and water pump. Terry mentioned the pump, and I think it was 'fuel pump'. He did say it's on driver's side which is a good thing for me. But then I also know that VVC mechanism is on the driver's side as well, so that's a worry. If engine is screwed... looks like a new car for me, but then I still have to fix the car. (Everything else is still superb condition so I would like to fix the car as new and sell it to next buyer). Absolutely everything is mint in the car including all my sound install, it's a shame that the engine department (which is the main part) is letting me down..

And Neil, yes it died slowly it was like watching ECG going flat... :-(

Turgut I hope that's not true for my case. *sigh*.
I did notice the slight noise getting a bit bigger and bigger from my driver's side intake for last 2 weeks. Wouldn't VVC mechanism just go whole shebang at once..?
Hanah Kim

Bad news Hanah. Seems something to be worried about, sorry :(

If it's a gone VVC mechanism, probably it would be best just to buy a used ported head with all the VVC syncromesh in situ. Well, look it on the bright side, probably you will end up with a tuned F.

Valter (hoping for the best).
Valter

Valter, if that's the case, I might have to talk to Dave Andrews...
Hanah Kim

And yeah forgot to say Valter, thanks for the concern..
*sob*
Hanah Kim

Difficult to diagnose, but for what it's worth, when Scarlet's first engine died (MPi) on me it sounded a lot like this, however, my one went BANG as it died so maybe yours is something else. It was diagnosed as being a sheared exhaust valve and the bang was a piston and cylinder liner disintegrating.

Fingers crossed for you mate.

SF
Scarlet Fever

Thanks Scarlet. I really do hope so as well. I contacted Dave Andrews in case I need new head for the VVC + the mechanism. I hope he can read this thread ASAP.

Have you got the result back for your car yet??
Hanah Kim

Nope, have the insurance details to hand today and am going to ring them this afternoon.

Watch this space... ;-)

SF

P.S. Did a load of interior stuff this weekend, took over 2 hours to pixel edit and upload all the images to the SOS site. Well worth a look, surf to the 'rebuild' section and click on '5th April'

>> http://www.sfforever.co.uk <<
Scarlet Fever

Yikes Hanah - sorry to hear about this. Boy, the rattle must have been pretty loud to be audible over a TT exhaust!

Is the mechanic going to perform a compression test on your engine?

Hope that this is not as serious as it sounds :o(

Rob
Rob Bell

Scarlet all the best for you!

Rob, rattle was not audible by much (at the start of the journey), but before the engine died it got louder, it was not a rattle, but ticking noise. I am sure the mechanic will do whatever is necessary to figure out what's wrong with the vehicle. He did say that there was a lot of play in the fuel pump or water pump... don't know what that means... tho.
He was too busy so I didn't ask. The car is in good hands, but whether the car can be fixed cheaply is a different question.. that I am scared to ask!

If it's something simple keep the car till end of the year,

if not, fix it then bye bye to my F.

I should sell my performance parts separately tho..

:-(
Hanah Kim

I'm not sure, but could it have been 'pinking' due to a too lean mixture?
Will Munns

The only experience I have had with engines making this noise is with ones of much older design than the K, but they were due in one case to the big-end bearings, and in another case, with the piston rings... both of which are serious but repairable.
P Hudson

Hi Hanah - got your e-mail sorry to hear the bad news. Wouldn't think it's the fuel pump and considering they worth about $1,000, hope it isn't. Let us know what your mechanic finds. Cheers D
Dennis

Bad news again.

Apparently new cambolts that I got from Mike have completely sheared off from the engine. As Rob knows I have no money now and only thing I can do is fix the car and sell it.

Dennis are you interested in any parts on my car? I will send you this list.

I am too disappointed and gutted to say anything..

Sorry guys...

TOYMGF goes.. is anyone keen on this number plate a well..
:-(
Hanah Kim

Hanah, I'm very sorry for you.
JohnP

Hanna,

I'm gutted for you mate. Same smeg happening to the same guy twice is lousy. Here's hoping it's not too bad when the head comes off it.

Leigh
Leigh Reid

Dooh, what's going on here ?

HAnah, very sorry about the bad luck :(
Impossible IMO that stretch bolts just share. I fear there was some huge force from inside causing such damage. Broken valve ?

Oh, oh :(
Kind Regards
Dieter
Dieter K.

Hi guys thanks for the posts.. I see all those familar names... thanks for the concern.

I have taken some photos today, shows the 'filing' of the metal around the cam bolt area, my mechanic reckons the bolt was not strong, and started moving and washer there were starting to get filed... I have photos of the filing being everywhere. Who wants the photos? [he firstly re-used Rover cambolts with loc-tite, but after I gave him the Mike Satur one he replaced with those again]

My engine died whilst being stationary, so my mechanic reckons it won't need a new engine, but in the luckiest case being a few bent valves. He definately said I won't need a new engine, but a few internal components. Glad it wasn't a loud shebang... we don't know yet as we haven't taken the head off yet. I still have to wait until I get the full list of parts (engine) to repair my car. After full repair with new headgasket with steel dowels (I never had a HGF) the car will find a new buyer. Since it should be mint after the engine repair + mint number plate, my mechanic will find a new buyer for me as well.

This will not put me off as of yet, I will see how this goes I might still keep it at the end of the day! who knows!

Wonder how much does parts will cost tho.... (second hand)

For example 'valves' 'pistons'...
Hanah Kim

Ups...

Very, very sorry for you. This are the days you want to forget. Don't rush your decisions. Try to source parts slowly (in order to find good deals) from aftermarket (if any) or used. May take some weeks but it's the way to a cheaper repair.

MG's are cheap to maintain (low fuel consumption, easy DIY) as long as they don't break down...

Sheared cambolts are the real cause, or part of the effect? They could be both. Try to dig the first cause of everything...

My sympathies,

Valter.
Valter

Hanah, Don't give up yet - I've skimmed the threads will read in detail later.
Right give RJR a ring tomorrow and see if they have any VVC engines from Rover 200s. Their number is (09) 425 8406. Failing that call Lawrie at the MG centre (03) 365 0151 see what he has on hand.

Now if all else fails I'm prepared to rebuild it free of charge providing you can source the parts and can pay for any machining.

One problem I'll need the engine down here so give me a call tomorrow - you have my contact details.

Cheers D
Dennis

Thanks Valter,

My mechanic will give me the list of parts that I need + second hand prices (local) so I can compare with UK ones.

Sheared cambolts are apprarently the main cause... so far.

My parents are convincing me to hold on to the car until the end of the year, but what difference does it make...

I hope it costs less than 1000 pounds.. mechanic being my friend and second hand parts hopefully help...

I can only wait...
Hanah Kim

Yikes - Hanah, is what you are saying is that the cam bolts Mike supplied have failed??? 8oO

I'd be very surprised if this were the case. Are we sure that the bolts haven't undergone "torque relaxation" (to use MGR recall parlance ;o)). What condition are the threads in within the VVC cam? I suspect that Mike may want those bolts back for further investigation...

Stick in there Hanah. Don't sell the car just yet - the engine would seem to be repairable, and the underlying problem isn't one that should return (it is pretty incredible that it has occurred more than once, TBQH).

Difficult to predict repair costs without knowing the condition of the head and pistons, but assuming that these parts are in good condition, then I'd say that there is a very good chance that repairs should come in under 1k.
Rob Bell

Could you sell the numberplate and keep the car?
Will Munns

Oh Dennis, very kind of you! But I would feel bad.... just making you work on it like that. Thanks so much for the information on where to get the parts etc. I will keep you uptodate with how things go, and let you know. You posted the msg at the same time (as I did), so I just got to read it now. I will give you a call tomorrow anyway.


Rob:

Thanks for the kind words. I should keep the car for the sake of having your TT exhaust on!! :-((
I don't know exactly what happened to the bolts (but my mechanic keeps saying that he should have left the bolts that he put on in the first place / and told me don't bring the same bolts again for this repair). If you want the photos please let me know, not sure if this is going to varify anything.. just shows the cam gears and a lot of metal filing around...
The engine is definately repairable. My mechanic said it will be good as new when fixed, it's matter of how much it's going to cost. His hourly rate is very good especially for me as I have a very good relationship with him. (ie. i designed his website, provide spare computer parts etc. , its like a friendship) Since the engine went during idling waiting to turn to a smaller road to call for help, we hope the damage in the engine is minimal. Hopefully not the head / pistons...


Will:

:0( I only had the number plate for 4 months.. only thing on the F that probably increased in value. Straight words and no numbers 'TOY MGF'. Was quite suprised at the time of purchase, as it was still available. Looks better when on the car..
Hanah Kim

Please move the pix to dkoen @ web.de
I'll post them later.
Dieter K.

An update:

Head is coming off tomorrow.

Apparently, my mechanic tested the engine by rotating the cam and see which valves come up. 2 valves are bent out of 16 which is not so bad. Hopefully no extent to the head or the pistons. Hopefully good news once the head comes off. Haven't heard from Mike S yet. He must be really busy as usual....

Parts so far needed:

1) 2 valves
2) cam gear
3) new cambelt (after 13000km use)
4) new headgasket with metal dowels

Hanah Kim

Keep us posted Hanah. I've my fingers crossed for you (makkess tryypiing diifficculttt) ;-)

SF
Scarlet Fever

Got the pix to
http://www.mgfcar.de/hgf/114-1492_IMG.jpg
http://www.mgfcar.de/hgf/114-1493_IMG.jpg
http://www.mgfcar.de/hgf/114-1494_IMG.jpg
Not much visible though.
Dieter K.

Thanks Scarlet! Makes me laugh to read your post!


And Thanks Dieter for posting the photos on your web. You can see the filing around the cam area? :-(

And to Mike S,

I had absolutely no intention to publicly critisize the bolts themselves. I might have had a dud one, or as you suggested the threads could have been damaged on the mating part which is highly likely. I didn't mean to put the whole blame on the bolts itself. I just can't belive it happened twice... So big apology from me. I hope you are not upset.

Has anyone got a spare standard exhaust braket? [thinking of selling my TT exhaust separately from the car, so I need to put the old one back on]

Thanks guys..

Hanah Kim

Hi Hannah,

Can you explain pics more, or got some from different angles? Quite hard to see what's going / been going on in there.

Keep us posted on how the repair goes! You got any idea as far as costs go yet?

Hang in there.

Leigh
Leigh Reid

The cost has not been decided yet. The mechanic wants to fix my car and want it to be on the road, before he gives me the figure. I trust him fully so the price should be the best.

Leigh, unfortunately with a lot of support from you guys, I will be parting with my F after the repair. It will be upto my standard says my mechanic. Since he will sell the car for me, he will still look after my loved 'TOYMGF'.

It had:

4 bent valves
no piston damages
VVC housing required
not sure about the head (but mechanic has everything we need for the repair)
one of the cam gears gone

It's not so bad is it...

I got the parts already. Second hand locally as he has some good sources.

Addition will be a new uprated headgasket with steel dowels. Which will be a plus.

I don't know much it's going to cost me at the end, but hope it's not too much...

I have decided upon what I am getting next. I was going to sell my F at the end of the year, but came a little sooner.

My car will be back on road by next Thursday. (Wed your time)

Will keep posted.


Hanah Kim

Hi Hannah,
sorry to read all about what has happend and hopefully it will not turn out too expensive in the end. May-bee you even consider keeping the car as it will be much more bullet proof after the repair....

But then to the main point for the technically minded : What EXACTLY has happend ? Photos shows both bolts intact, (no sheared bolt-heads), the belt is slightly off center and on the shown part of the belt no torn or missing teeths. So indeed confusing on a high level. If it is so that one or both bolts have started to un-wind and in that way loosend a bit of course the only part to take the torque is that rather flimsy pin... But that would IMO indicate that either the fitting torque on the bolts were too low,earlier damage on the cams internal threads OR old thread-lock compound jamming the bolt before full contact with the cam-wheels. Many questions - but relevant ones in finding out what happend (and of course also preventing this to happend to others !)

As said, hope all turns out well at a decent cost, BR , Carl.
Carl Blom

Hanah,

That was quick. Your mechanic sure was fast. Hope the job will be an high standard one.

Apparently it's not a huge job and if the head is ok, then we're looking to a non too expensive job.

Do you have the chance to see live the NZ Rally that is taking place now?

Cheers, Valter.
Valter

My thoughts exactly Carl...
Rob Bell

Hi Hannah,

Looks like the techy questions are starting to roll! More pics if possible, need to see more of the source of those filings. Those pics raise more questions than they answer!

I thought there was maybe more toothed wheels further down (under the 2 main wheels)? Also, VVC has more belts, are the other ones in this area, or are those on the other side of the engine?

Also interesting your mechanic said he should have kept in original bolts he used, as it sounds like the car was fixed (with new bolts?), then those bolts replaced?

Interesting thing would be to see where those filings came from, and state of bolts / pins / gear etc before and when disassembled.

I also scanned some of the archives about this stuff, many interesting articles on the subject. Also seems at this time last year, there seems to have been more techical people popping in and out more frequently.

Rog P did had some suggestions on bolt shear (examples with bolt shear on lorries), and IIRC, an article on Rover replacing Cylinder Heads on cars that had suffered 'relaxed' bolts, possibly due to the effects the relaxed bolts had on threads?

Did you ever get in touch with MGR when you had your inital bolt failure? Might be worth dropping a letter / e-mail to 'em if you didn't before and try and get some cash from them? Also could check to see if dealers did required bolt torque check for recall?

Good luck anyway mate.

Leigh
Leigh

Sorry to hear about your misfortune Hanah.

As Carl says above some more details of what exactly happenned would be very useful. The photos do not reveal much.

Hope it gets sorted soon

Spyros
Spyros Papageorghiou

Thanks for such interests guys.

Carl:
Thanks for the msg. I hope it doesn't cost too much at the end as well. Hmm, it is not the real reason why I am selling the car. I was planning to get a new car at the end of the year I need to do a lot of travelling from next year, and need a car with 4 seats. I also wanted a 4x4 SUV type... I go skiing every year, and owning a 4x4 would help a lot.

I really don't understand the photos much either. My mechanic was emphasising on the filing as nothing much other than that. He said the belt is in perfect condition and can be re-used. He said the fan belt is gone. Fitting torque was not low for sure, because the mechanic did this many times, for them they were lucky since he was tightening the bolts for preventative measure (such word?). He knows what he is doing... I asked him about the damaged internal threads, and he said he has looked after that before tightening the bolts. So to be honest don't know what really happened. The best suggestion was from Mike S as usual. Always get the bolt checked every 6 months or every services. He said this is a good thing to do on every Fs out there (especially VVC).

I would be interested in the *real* cause of the problem. This time though, I will be using Rover pins with loc-tite.


Valter:

Yes! I was quite surprised. He took ages to open the head, because he had a lot of work to do already in the garage, as he is the one man army in the workshop. He got rid of urgent stuff ASAP and moved on to my car. He wants the car back on road. He did say 'I will fix the car up to your standard, don't worry'. And I do believe him. I haven't had much chance to see NZ rally.. been too far busy! *sigh*


Rob:

:-D Ditto Carl's?


Leigh:

Sorry didn't have time to go to take more photos as of yet. I might pop in early next week to see how things are going. Yes, he did put the Rover ones on after first repair, but I got the Mike S ones later on, so he took Rover ones out and put Mike's one. I wouldn't both talking to MGR, I don't expect a single cent out of those guys. Especially when you have bought a second hand car at 6000 miles. Dealers did not do the bolt torque recall, and that's why the first cam failure happened. I asked them specifically to do it and after 3000km sh*t hit the fan.


Spyros:

Thank you. I will talk to my mechanic again..
I think he will be working tomorrow (Sunday) to get my car fixed ASAP...


My next replacement car will be Mitsubishi Airtrek Turbo-R.







Hanah Kim

Leigh's response: I meant I wouldn't bother talking to MGR
Hanah Kim

My car should be on road again at the end of the week. Fingers crossed. I am going to garage tomorrow to take some photos.
:-)
Hanah Kim

Oeps, just read this thread for the first time... so painfull. There a better ways to part from a car than this.

The good thing is that you've got a mechanic you could trust and have some ideas about a next TOY-car.

If you're selling the exhaust, mention it's history: Rob, Hannah, .... it increases it's value.

Take care
Erik Baekelant

Thanks Erik,

The repair is going well, and will be better than what it was before. :-D [with new gasket etc! / steel dowels]

I am still deciding to keep the car... (well actually my dad wants it now)

I got a good mechanic so I am not sweating...

Yeah that TT exhaust is a mean one... I really loved the rumble and bubbles... especially when I had the CAT bypass, it sounded so nice... but then it was a bit too loud for my liking so went back to CAT. Big history of it being a prototype / Rob's ownership / My ownership / and Trevor passed away so no more of these around anymore..
Hanah Kim

>> (well actually my dad wants it now)<<

LOL -- Hanah, well done, another convert to the Darkside... Scarlet Vader will be delighted ;oD
Rob Bell

>>> I really loved the rumble and bubbles <<<
That's the real reason why Robs car has the RMB (rumble) combination it its license plate ;-)
Erik Baekelant

>>
>>> I really loved the rumble and bubbles <<<
That's the real reason why Robs car has the RMB (rumble) combination it its license plate ;-)
<<

ROFL - nice one Erik! :oD
Rob Bell


Notice how there is no response from Mike S here and you say no response directly, what a surprise.

For the mech. to question the part that failed suggests you have a case against Mr Satur here ? Be nice to hear that at least they are stress tested
Ralph

>Trevor passed away so no more of these around anymore.

Not sure but it was said his son goes on with the business. Anyone knows ?
Dieter K.

Things do happen Ralph. Don't know the *exact* reason, but no hard feelings on anyone. The car will be fixed, and it's just an object. Usually Mike S items are very good. So I am not going to start anything here.... Mike has sent me a few emails to help.

But this time I will be using Rover originals with loc-tite <- my mechanic doesn't want to use the other ones.

Dieter, I ain't sure.. :-(
sorry
Hanah Kim

> Be nice to hear that at least they are stress

Loads of stuff about these bolts in the archives. IIRC, the standard Rover items are 8.9, Mikes are 11.9 I believe.

While in the deepest recesses of the archive, I also found a post from Rodger 'explaining' the sheared bolt phenomenon, with an explanation using lorry wheels as a comparison. Basically, the bolts shear when they come loose, rather than just shearing. So the shearing is effect, rather than cause.

The odd thing is that the pics supplied by Hannah don't seem to visually indicate any problems (other than filings, rather than the source of the filings), which is why it would have been interesting to have seen more pics, or got more info about the nature of the failure. Pics of the bolts/bits/head after disassembly might help with this.

Lastly, I also recall reading (somewhere, might have been a milk carton, no tesiment to how truthful unless coroborated by others!) that Rover were replacing the complete head of any engines found to have been damaged due to 'relaxed' bolts, not just the bolts themselves. It's for this reason that I think Hanna might still have a claim against MGR, as the fault 'could' lie with the head, and not with the bolts. And additionally, as Hanna's car did not have the recall performed on it prior to the first failure. Note : I'm not a mechanic, so this is pure conjecture on my part, but I am surprised there hasn't been more views from Techy people. I can also understand why Mike hasn't posted here personally, but do hope he is providing advice to Hannah directly.

Regds,

Leigh
Leigh

This thread was discussed between 06/04/2003 and 17/04/2003

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