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MG MGF Technical - MGF MY2000 stereo system- should we copy it?

I thought I might share my findings on the new MGF MY2000 6 speaker stereo system so as to open the debate- as I bet that many (like me) are considering the possibility of adding a couple of extra speakers behind the seats to improve the ‘sound’.

I am not a ICE expert in any shape or form, but I have listened to what Sarah and others have said on this subject. Curiously, the opinions on the new car’s stereo has been mixed, and now I know why.

I took an extended test drive of a VVC yesterday (nice day for a drive- had been considering a replacement F, but that’s another story). Having made my mind up about the car’s handling, I decided to concentrate on the stereo. It had a Goodwood sourced MG badged single CD player. Disappointingly, the RDS display didn’t tell you what channel you were listening to, but maybe the display option wasn’t correctly set? Anyway back to the sounds.

Yes it produced a big, all enveloping sound. And yes, you could hear it at speed with the roof down. This is good, I thought. BUT, and this is a big but, there was very poor stereo imaging. In fact my totally standard stereo in my Mk1 F sounded better. Very disappointing- the head unit might as well have been in mono mode. The situation improved slightly when the front/ rear fade control biased the sound to the front speaker/ tweeter units, but it still wasn’t exceptional. Bass reproduction wasn’t too clever either- and this is from someone who isn’t into bass heavy tunes.

Verdict: disappointing

Discussion point:
I still think that this is an idea that could work, but doesn’t because all sound frequencies are channelled through those rear speakers. I would have thought that this location would suit a low mid range or bass sound, and allow the tweeters to carry the ‘directional’ sound in the front of the cockpit. I understand that a cross-over could be employed to remove high frequencies fed to the rear speakers. I’d be grateful for thoughts, experiences and insights on this subject before I start cutting holes in my T- bar and spend my hard earned on a project like this.

Cheers

Rob
N7 RMB
Robert Bell

Rob

My answer:-

Grow old, get Tinatus and drive with the hood down and frankly nothing is going to make much difference except good quality headphones - which is what I have done and use on longish runs.

Ted
Ted Newman

I think you make a valid point Ted about realistic sound quality in a two seater sports car, but my question is about how best to make good a poor job.

IMO the MY2000 missed the mark.

The headphones are an excellent idea, but aren't there legal issues to be addressed? If there are not, then I might consider copying this inspired idea!

However, for those who are not keen on the headphone idea, is the T-bar mounted speaker concept a non runner?

Rob
(Who hopes not to get tinnitus! ;o)
Robert Bell

I agree with Ted - splice in an in-line low-pass crossover set somewhere between 250 / 1,000Hz and this should solve some of the imaging problems. Bass notes are non-directional - mid-range and treble are very directional. A full-range driver 6" behind your head will drown almost any high-frequency sounds coming from the front "sound stage". Eliminating these high frequencies from the T-Bar driver in this way should restore the sound stage.

- Andy
S6 AJG
Andy GIlhooley

The legal issue regarding the use of headphones has cropped up before, but I consider them to be perfectly legal after all the are supplied now for fitting in motor cycle helmets and the police use them in theirs.

Providing the noise doesn't drown out all outside noise then they are as safe as an in car speakers system which it could be said could also be illegal if it was too loud.

Ted
Ted Newman

Ted, what you say is sensible- afterall many Coupes are so well sound proofed that it is next to impossible to hear anything outside with the stereo on. Also, yes, I have seen those Motorcycle headsets. Since I prefer to hear my music whereas Yimmy sets the volume at inaudible levels, perhaps what you suggest is actually ideal for me, if perhaps a little antisocial? ;o) LOL

Andy- yup, you are thinking along a similar wavelength there. In fact my plan was to modify the T bar to accept the door speakers that I am displacing for a couple of Kenwood coaxials that I bought a while back. They are some what smaller than the usual 25cm subs you can buy, although the bass output would be inadequate for a good bass sound- but that isn't really my stated aim- more of a flood fill of sound, but with good directional qualities... does that make sense?

Rob
Robert Bell

Rob, a 'fill-in' speaker in the T-Bar is worth considering, Paul from Preston has done this and he has said that everything is more coherent and the quality improved even with the top down. There are a number of 6*4 inch speakers which people have now fitted. Though I think that Mike Satur might be trying to squeeze some JBL 5*7's in the T-Bar, they should be a significant improvemnet on the MKII factory fitted units. I would listen to the overall sound and then try to reduce the higher frequencies, by a low pass filter. Also some new Head Units allow you to alter the Bass/treble response for the Front and Rear speakers independantly, this would allow you to play until you had the right sort of stereo image at the front.

Having said all of this, I am ever so pleased with the results of just replacing the standard speakers with a component system (Infinity Kappa). I have two 8" Bass speakers, behind the seats, which make a difference but even without is very impressive.

Ted, or anyone else, if you see me at an MG event have a listen to my set up. You will be surprised at the quality that can be achieved, even in an open topped sports car (ask martin Woods!).
Sarah

Hi Sarah

Thanks for the advice.

>>Having said all of this, I am ever so pleased with the results of just replacing the standard speakers with a component system (Infinity Kappa). I have two 8" Bass speakers, behind the seats, which make a difference but even without is very impressive.<<

I've heard it too, and yes, it is deeply impressive (I am using it as a 'gold standard' for what can be achieved).

So you suggest I junk the plan to re-locate the standard door speakers to the T bar?

I'll elaborate my current ideas for a 'low cost ICE solution':

1. Replace the door speakers with the Kenwood coxials, on an MDF collar. I'll see if I can make up an adaptor that actually directs the tweeter towards the opposite side occupant's head (or that vague direction)

2. Displaced door speakers to the T-bar, hidden behind standard speaker covers (I have a couple spare- thanks Scarlet!)

3. Four channel amplifier to get improved control over the speakers output, with a low pass filter to the rear. I plan to keep the standard head unit so as the whole system looks standard to prying eyes. But that causes problems as I understand that the Philips head does not have pre-outs for an amp- any suggestions to a reasonable budget amp that can cope with speaker outputs? A suggestion as to a filter would be appreciated too.

The reason for keeping the standard door speakers is that I am resoanbly impressed with them as a standard fitment. Driven with an amp, I'd imagine that the sound quality from them could be quite good in fact if powered by an amp- although I am prepared to take advice on this.

Thanks

Rob
Robert Bell

Just to confirm...

I had a demo of Sarah's setup at Brooklands (replacement head unit, front door speakers, dynamat'ed doors) and couldn't believe the difference in both sound quality and volume, amazing :-)

I'd suggest to anyone considering playing with ICE to do the above before anything else - although (being a bit of a bass head) I've considered mounting a huge amp and two 10" subs in a box that would completely fill the boot, problem is, it would only be good with the roof down and you'd probably be constantly plagued by a convoy of Max Power decalled XR3i's wanting a "sound off" ;-)

Hope this helps

Richard - (with a standard system - for now!)
Richard Eaton


Although I haven't replaced the speakers in my Mk I F, I've noticed a fab difference in fitting a Pioneer head unit with DSP and ASL. I've got the KEH-P9700R - there's a piccy of the Unit on my Website - and not only is it amazing to look at it, but the DSP compensates somewhat towards the poor quality Rover speakers. Setting up the 9700R involves plugging in a supplied microphone, closing all the doors and waiting while the system plays tones through the speakers. It then adjusts the frequency output to compensate for poor speakers - result - great sound, great looks!

ASL is *really* useful. Auto Sound Leveler - you know when you're cruising on the motorway and the car stereo starts to drown out? Well, with ASL, a built in microphone detects the ambient noise and compenstates! So if as road noise increases, volume increases and vice versa. Stops the need to fiddle with the volume control and you can concentrate on the driving!

Replacing the head unit gets my vote as an initial upgrade, then replace the speakers as recommended above.....

R i c h i i (+ Blue ICE)
http://www.richii.com/mgf.html

P.S. Pioneer's new "Organic EL" display stereo's are the tops too! :)
Richii

I've the MGF Mk2 (1.8i)

I've only listened to radio (radio3 mainly)when stuck in traffic in London. I can vouch that the basic system, as is, is truely exceptionally good. Anyone thinking of a MK2 please be re-assured that it good. I don't need any tweeking. Rush our has never been so relaxing!

As for the sound with the roof down. I cannot say. As I have never done this.

Francis
V272 ROH
Francis

MG should put Alpine in their demo cars ;-)

I must say my Sony MD/CD/RDS headunit really produces excellent sound on the standard MGF speakers, and some other passengers told me this aswell.
So I'm not so sure if all MGFs have the same speakers fitted. (?) Or is the standard Philips crap really so bad?

ps: my Sony has 4x40W >2ch not used :-/ and next to usual equalizer settings 3 extra bass settings, where position 1 suffices, otherwise door panels start vibrating!

I would never go for standard fitted audio in a new car, everybody knows that sucks like hell. (or you pay £500 or £1000 extar to have factory fitted upgraded audio, but then you can do it cheaper DIY)
BTW, who would include a bloody tapedeck in a car bought near Y2000 anyway? CD rules! MD is runner-up, MP3 worth checking!
Dirk Vael

I have changed both the Radio and the door speakers. This is my verdict. I first changed the radio for a CD player "Kenwood Mask". Sound quality imporved. Clearer sound. I then replaced the door speakers for 216 Magnet, with seperate base, tweeters. I also sound deadened the doors. The result was that I could hear a deeper base then before and more sound seperation. The standard Rover speakers do not seem to beable to reproduce the low frequencies and the speaker postion is too low in the door for the tweeters. The only problem I have now is where to place the tweeters. They have been moved in various places over the last 3 weeks but cannot make up my mind what position sounds the best)
Steve


Just to add to the debate...
(In summary: replace existing speakers and add an amp!)

I've had a new head unit for some time now (Sony minidisk). It improved the sound mainly due to the format change.
I added a cheap amp. Noticable improvement for the better.

Car crash. Hassle. Hell and back. New car. Start again.

Again, replaced the head unit - cleaner crisper sound.
Adding a good quality amp then gave me much more punch with the standard speakers. They are capable of
suprisingly good bass. Not brilliant at high volumes.
Added good quality component speakers which were fitted for me. This was a good move. Fitted extremely well.
The sound quality is really very good now.
Bass is incredibly tight. A little too sharp just now
so I've tuned the crossovers to reduce the treble
to the middle setting. Just getting used to this.
It can cope with stupid volumes, so opentop is not a problem at all - still very clear.

I had been considering either the subwoofer or T-bar speakers route. I'm not bothering now. I'm more
than happy with the results achieved with the standard mounts.
Incidentally, the tweeters are mounted down low in the footwells. This was recommended. Good results.

Drop me a mail if you want more details.

Cheers,
Paul.
Paul

Paul

I'm just about to go off and buy some kit, but can't be ar5ed looking at mags and comparing makes etc.

Can you tell me what makes and models of speaker, amps etc you've fitted?? What speaker size do I need??

Thanks

Stefan
Stefan Gibney


Stefan,

Emailed in more detail but I have a Phoenix Gold amplifier and JL speakers. The JL speakers are
6.5cm in diameter - I think. Either way, they pop straight in.

Shop I went to was called 'Unique' in Lightwater, Surrey and can be recommended - especially fitting.

Cheers,
Paul.
Paul

I am a complete heretic with ICE, but can still appreciate good sounds.

My comment here relates to Ted's reference to headphones/headsets and I can confirm that nothing exists to prohibit their use. Additionally I can refer to many situations where well insulated vehicles such as Merc's, Lexus and similar provide far more effective isolation of occupants to the outside world and so these are more vulnerable because of being deprived of audible warnings of impending disasters.

Rog
Roger Parker

Rob
Refresh my memory as to what "Yimmy" stands for?

does it involve a Vauxhall Nova?!
Julian

8o.

Vauxhall Nova??? Maybe I'll have to get you elaborate on that some time Julian!

Yimmy is my 'life partner' in PC parlance, or me girlfriend in old money ;o)

>>So I'm not so sure if all MGFs have the same speakers fitted. (?) Or is the standard Philips crap really so bad?<<

Dirk, I think the problem lies with the cruddy old Philips unit- it is rated in the 25 amps per channel range (on a good day, apparently). There are no pre-outs for connection to an amplifier. Most decent quality modern head units have outputs of at least 35-40 watts per channel which in itself is a big improvement. Plus they have pre-outs for amp hook ups.

I feel encouraged from what I have read here to keep the standard door speakers for rear mounting- if I can get them to fit- complete with an appropriate filter. Speakers can be upgraded again at a later date/ as required. But maybe I should look into some JBL components... a stroll down Tottenham Court road is called for this lunch time! ;o)

Rob
Robert Bell

Just returned from that stroll. Have been offered a Rockford Fosgate amp which gives me 5 channels (one for a sub) that has the filters already built in. 4 x 30 RDMS... now obselete, hence prive reduction from 499 to 199 UKP.

Sounds good to me- comments? My credit card is getting worried!

Rob
Robert Bell

Rob

A reduced 'prive' it that one in your cartoon?

Ted
Ted Newman

Rob,

5 channels but 4 x 30 W RMS ??
Usually, ICE manufacturers quote the power as "max power", that's much impressive (!). IMO, 30 W RMS should be 60 W max.
60 W max to power a sub sounds a bit weak ...

Fabrice
Fabrice


As it's a Rockford Fossgate (American) it'll be very realistic RMS values quoted.

eg. My amp is :
25W x 2 into 4ohm @ 12.4V (IASCA/USAC)
or 75W x 2 into 4ohm @ 14.4V (nominal continuous @ 1% thd)
or 150w x 2 into 2ohm @ 14.4V (nominal continuous @ 1% thd)

... and all are the same! :o)
... and the amp is easily loud enough!

Anyway, I've not heard of an underpowered Rockford amp.

Sounds a bargain.

Have a look at www.rockfordfosgate.com

Hope this helps,

Cheers,
Paul.
Paul

Ted- yet again I win the prize typo award! ;o)

Fabrice- yes that is a bit weedy for the sub, but the fifth channel output is 60W RMS (sorry, I didn't mention that earlier). The sales person also fished out a review of another RF amp to emphasize that this is a company that is overly modest over their quoted outputs. Could be sales speak, but he suggested 120W peak for this particular amp...


Must say I am tempted.

Rob
Robert Bell

Rob,
that's a very good price for an amp of such quality.
go for it !

(does it fit under a seat ?)

Fabrice
Fabrice

It looks as though it'd be ideal in that position Fabrice. Mounted horizontally, it hasn't much height so will easily clear the base of the seat, plus its plan area is fairly small- eye balling it, I'd say it measured something like 350 x 500 mm. Looks nice too, although the casing is different to those pictured on the web page Paul gave the URL for (nice one, cheers Paul).

I am very tempted, I have to confess.

Rob
Robert Bell

Guess what, in Germany you get to choose from a range of Blaupunkt Head units, and I must say that the sound from my Boston DJ and uprated speakers (came with head) is just brilliant.

I just need to add some dampening to the doors....

No crappy MG badged Philips units here...

Jason
Jason

Rob, I replied to your e-mail about the amp. If you do get the Rockford amp then you must get some decent component speakers for the front. Ask the guy in the shop which sells the Rockford amp, he will probably recommend American speakers to complement it, Infinity, JBL etc.

The amp is too good for the Kenwoods that you currently have. You do need some decent components in decent mounts in the door. It is also worthwhile to put some of the sound deadening material in the door as well.

Richii, I've also got a Pioneer DSP, though the hideaway unit. This also allows you to vary the frequency response independantly on the front and rear speakers. You can play with the cut off points, with frequency and level, until you get the right balance. They are very useful bits and very adaptable.

The best upgrade route is to replace the speakers then an amp, then consider your next step.
Sarah

Yes, thanks Sarah- I did get your e-mail.

Things have snow balled a bit- never mind. Okay, I'll ensure that I change the Kenwoods in due course... but I am now in possession of a new new shiny Rockford Fosgate amp, which means that the speaker upgrade will have to wait a short while.

I have picked up three rolls of 'Brown Bread' sound deadening material that I plan to insulate the doors, engine bulk head and boot floor with- and will report on the success- or lack of- with this stuff.

Thanks for everyone's advice- cheers

Rob

(It'll probably be new year before I get time to fit this stuff, oh well. Maybe by then I'll get some component speakers? Hmmm...)
Robert Bell

There should be my pretty comprehensive description of how i fitted rear speakers in the T-bar in the archive....i really doubt whether the old front speakers would fit....i really tried hard to find a way but couldn't....the 6x4s i fitted were more or less max size whilst still retaining engine access.
I'm really pleased with the sound improvement...only really appreciated the difference after listening to a standard car the other day. I like most people have uprated the head unit and front speakers too
Paul

Dirk,

I've been trying to find a car MP3 player in the UK but without success. Are they available in the Luxembourg? and for how much?

I recently found an American site and a price tag of
$900 !!


Cheers
Mounir
Mounir

MP3 players are still in infant phase, I read now they're soon releasing a portable MP3 player with capacity of 80hrs of music, yet still cheap & tiny.
Pretty cool, but if you want decent stuff in your car and you hate skipping, go for MD. Rocks IMHO. Additionally buy MP3 portable and connect it through a line on on the mainunit. How can you otherwise upload MP3 music anyway? Long cable from garage into house? ;-) Memorycards are just too expensive to justify the cost (£100 for 48MB) MD discs cost £1 and have a excellent sound reproduction and shock protection (never skipped once in my F).

Some MP3 players are avail in Lux, never checked for car MP3 though...
Dirk Vael

For us 'ignorant' what is an MP3?

Ted
Ted Newman

Ted,
under us 'ignorants', before Dirk blows a 1000 words covering explanation :)..

3rd generation of compressed Media data.
Audio & Video :)
You can see your favourite movie in your F. Stored on a 'CD'
Dieter

MP3 is audio only not video.

MP3 is the abbbreviation of "MPEG 1 audio layer 3". It's a compressed music format (roughly a 10 factor between the "WAV" audio CD format and MP3) that is very popular on the internet : because of the compression, a song is approx 3-4 Mb file, so quite reasonnable to download, and the quality is comparable to CD.
There are loads of MP3 FTP sites where you can download songs and albums for free and that upsets the music industry !
There are also several MP3 search engines as audiogalaxy.com to help you find the FTP sites.
MP3 files can be converted in WAV files and burned on a CD.
Some new music file formats will soon come out : better compression and sound quality, but built-in protection for royalties :-/

Fabrice

Fabrice

:) thanks for this short explanation. I thought its that 'other' new tech.
Anyway, I am 'protected' ;-) from MP3 downloads by our companies proxy server. :(
Dieter

Dirk,

As I am planning to upgrade my music system, I didn't want to get a MD player and just soon watch every body else enjoying their mp3 files in the car. However I agree with you that it is a bit early for this technology to take over car-music systems so will probably go for an MD player



Ted,

Fabrice's explanation sums pretty much what's an MP3.

you can check this site: http://www.mp3.com for more information where you can also download the player for your PC. Then with a little ab it of surfing you can get you favourite songs with very good quality for free.


Mounir
Mounir

Hi Mounir,

Check out http://www.empeg.com for a UK in-car MP3 player. This outfit is based in Cambridge, but you won't get much change out of £800 for even a small 4GB unit. There is a reason for the high cost depending upon how the technology is implemented:

1) Small PC - essentially you get hold of the smallest PC case you can, and add a pile of custom input devices to it, and a decent sound card. Costs should start at around £500 (depending on size of disc and sound hardware).

2) Custom unit - you're paying for the R&D here - these units are relatively low (shipping) volume which drives the price up. This will not change until Sony, Kenwood et.al. get heads together and sort out a compressed music format which the music organisations are happy with (copy protection, etc.). This IMO will take *at least* a year.

- Andy
(#5000-odd on the empeg list and expecting to be invited to purchase in January).
Andy Gilhooley


Thanks Andy,

That's exactly what I was looking for.

Perhaps I'll have to start thinking of building my own computer to fit in the dashboard. Not only to play mp3's but also to download other technical information from the car's MEMS 8-)

Mounir
Mounir

Already thinking along that front - one of the empeg development guys is looking at building a black-box multiplexor for it's serial port to control multiple devices.

The unit is based on Linux, so is very extensible. Getting information from an ECU would be relatively straightforward through the serial port, once the protocols, and syntax have been figured out. IMO we would need to replace MEMS with an Emerald or GEMS ECU - I don't think Rover would be willing to relinquish their codes - but how about being able to re-configure the ECU between normal and super-unleaded fuel on-the-fly!

Possibilities? ... hmmmmmmm

- Andy
S6 AJG (now with with hardtop).
Andy Gilhooley

Saw something in one of the PC papers the other day about a PC that fits into the existing radio slot of a car - not sure what you would use as screen etc or do with the existing radio!

Ted
Ted Newman

Re auto pc see:-

http://www2.foundrywharf.com/cartrnx.com/caraudio-video/autopc.html

ted
Ted Newman

O rbetter still:-

http://www.autopc.com/index2.html

Ted
Ted Newman

Just heard that the Clarion Auto PC wont be available in Europe until mid 2000 and will cost in the region of £1500.00 !!

Ted
Ted Newman

I agree with Dirk - if you want excellent source quality in your car now at a decent price, get a MD unit. The disks are so small that you don't need to eat up your boot with a cd changer, and if the MDs get nicked, just record some new ones.

9408 SD 76
Hugh

other audio standards are from AT&T, Realaudio, Microsoft (argh) but also the not that known MP4 (not fully standardized yet). But Sony's ATRAC is still the most popular/best commercialized system yet...
Once MD, never without MD!

MP3 is not exactly what I call 'near-CD quality audio', it's more like good radio quality, but certainly enough in a car with all the background noise. Once memory gets really cheap, MP3 might have a chance, but at that moment it might be already MP8 ;-)

Sorry Dieter, our Proxy also prevents MP3 sites, but I hacked my way through it (wasn't easy, the system is smart, but not smart enough ;-), now I can get wherever I want on the net...

Wait till IBM comes out with its flexible transistor applications, having real electronic 'paper' (a TFT screen, thin & light as paper, which you can ply, wrap up and put in your pocket!). Not sure what happens if you attack it with scissors though ;-)
Invention announced last week...
Dirk Vael

This thread was discussed between 01/11/1999 and 05/11/1999

MG MGF Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGF Technical BBS is active now.