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MG MGF Technical - Installing a starter button

Browsing from the web site for the stripey Miata mentioned in an earlier thread i came across the following description of how to fit a starter button to an MX5.

http://www.eunos.com/keith/brb/print.html
http://www.eunos.com/keith/brb/brb2.html

This is a project i've thought about for a while and i wonder if a similar curcuit would be suitable for the MGF?

Looking at the following wiring diagrams for the F on

http://mgf.virtualave.net/inhalt.htm

could anybody give me any ideas as to where the connections should be made.

I'm thinking about siting the button to the right of the steering column close to the existing ignition switch.





Paul

ouups, one of my lost domain found :)

Please bookmark this one for advertising free clicks.
http://www.lame-delegation.de/mgf-net.de/schedules/index.htm

http://www.lame-delegation.de/mgf-net.de/schedules/sb12.jpg
should be related IMO.
Beeing not the electric speciallist, I better keep my mouth while reading at the Miata document:

....If you're not comfortable working with electrical circuits, the starting circuit of your car is NOT the best place to learn. ... ;-)

But the thread remains alive. :)

Any better comments ?

Rgds
Dieter

Dieter Koennecke

It's a fun idea isn't it?

My 'ideal' starter button would be a big red button which illuminates when the ignition is switched to 'on'.

Location is tricky because of the sculptured dashboard, but I'd want it as visible as possible!!! I guess the electric window switch panel is the most natural place.

I know where the ideal button could be sourced too: the Bentley parts department. No, really. They'll supply chrome cigarrette lighters, so there is no reason to suppose that they'll not supply replacement starter buttons for Bentley Conti-Rs as well... :o)

Rob
Rob Bell

Paul,

The starter button mod is something I have been considering myself for a while. Where is the Cigarette lighter on the 'F? On the MX5, it's just below and left of the steering wheel and I was thinking of removing mine and putting the botton there.

As for the botton itself, Demon Tweeks sell one IIRC, also I made enquires at my local Honda dealer and they were prepared to sell me a starter button from a Honda S2000 for about 45. Problem was, if it didn't work, I couldn't return it.

Also, unless you are really good at auto electrics, I wouldn't go near the ignition circuit. A local auto spark quoted me 20 to fit a button, and I think for something as crucial as that, it's better to get the experts in.

Now, I must get off my backside and get that button sorted :)

Jonathan
Got Stripes? - http://members.tripod.co.uk/stripy_miata
Jonathan McCormack

Jonathan, the ciggie lighter is next to the handbrake, so perhaps not the ideal solution for the F? Good idea though- and the S2000 button is a splendid idea.

45 quid? Go for it!!! That's the kind of money you'd lose down the back of the sofa ;o)

Rob
(Right, I'm off to raid my sofa...)
Rob Bell

Rob, It's a pity that the hazzard warning light switch is rectangular on the 'F, that would have been an excellent place for it.

Just visited your website, you are a Doctor, you drive a convertable sports car and you are a part time racing driver.

You must be constantly beating the ladies off with a big stick :)

Jonathan
Got Stripes? - http://members.tripod.co.uk/stripy_miata
Jonathan McCormack

ROFL!!!

Not sure that Yimmy, my better half, would be too impressed Jonathan! ;oD

You are right about the hazard switch- I'd thought about that too. Maybe one could put in a blanking panel in place of the hazard switch, and mount a big red starter button in its place?

Or, if you didn't listen to the radio, then they'd be this really useful space you could use...

Rob
Rob Bell

Rob,

If you could get a button with a flip up clear protective cover (so you could accidentaly press it)...

I'd think the cigarette lighter placing would look fantasic. Nice and visible, and so cool to just reach out to the left for a VVROOOM!!



Nigel
Nigel Hannam

Hold on hold on,

Isn't this a flashback in technology. What do you guys want a modern sports car or what. If you want something like that, then get a Frog Eye Sprite or an old Mini. When I worked in Korea; it was so nice to start the car remotely, from a key fob; so it was de-iced and warm before you get in it. We used to start them from the office window, so that by the time we got to the car 18 floors down, it was warm. Come on, try thinking forward in technology and not in the past. This is why cars like Audi TT are far superior than an MGF.

OLD OR NEW; --- Think about it and get a Frog Eye if you like the old.
Martin

Not sure if you need to worry about accidental pressing of this button, so the ciggie lighter might be a good place. I'm pretty sure the S2000 starter button circuitry is organised so that nothing happens if you press it when the engine is running, and obviously it only works with the key in the "on" position. The car's 70 miles away at home right now, otherwise I'd go out and check.

Brian
Brian

Who says old is bad? There is something wonderfully tactile (oo-er) about having the car start up on depressing a big red 'DANGER' button! :o) Ofcourse the effect is more impressive if the button fires up a big V8 or straight six, but we can't have everything can we? ;o)

Covered switch- good idea Nigel. Or, how about an aircraft style covered toggle switch? Mind you, I think I'd prefer a big red Bentley button myself...

Or, for the more sporty amongst us, how about a Motorsport electrical cut out switch on the dash? Remove the key, and you have another layer of security...

Rob
Rob Bell

Is this the Bentley Button here? - http://www.rolls-royceandbentley.co.uk/bentley/picture_gallery/conttint_a.jpg

There is a Bentley dealer in Belfast, could always pop into their parts dept for a laugh.

Was it the Knight Rider car that had a TurboBoost button, where can I get one of those? :)

Jonathan
Got Stripes (but no button)? - http://members.tripod.co.uk/stripy_miata
Jonathan McCormack

Coming back to the ciggie lighter ... is the one that Bentley supply able to fit in the *F* ? How much is it? The MG chrome one is 63GBP (too steep for me) and what really makes me laugh is it costs 4.50GBP to fit it. Thats taking the piss. 4.50 to have a 'technician' plug it into a socket !!!

Gaz
Gaz

Gaz- yes the lighter that Bentley use is a standard fitment and yes it DOES fit in an F- DaveB bought one from a RR dealer some time ago- for HALF the price that Rover charges. In case you are wondering, they are infact the same. So how can Rover justify harging MORE than Rolls Royce Bentley for a fag lighter??? Go figure.

http://www.rolls-royceandbentley.co.uk/bentley/picture_gallery/conttint_a.jpg

This looks to be a very nice piccie of the lighter :o) The starter button is mounted higher up on the fascia panel I think. Searched through the site, but no sign of it. It may be a special for the Conti-T.

>>Was it the Knight Rider car that had a TurboBoost button, where can I get one of those? :)<<

LOL. Well, whilst I cannot guarantee that you'll take off, you could check out one of those sites selling nitrous injection kits!!! Now that deserves a loud button marked "DANGER"!

Rob
Rob Bell

Rob,

<<
Or, for the more sporty amongst us, how about a Motorsport electrical cut out switch on the dash? Remove the key, and you have another layer of security...>>

Done this on the midget, not to start the car but for saftety/security. I have also installed a starter button but its crappy compared to the S2000 jobbie.

http://www.powercars.co.uk/console.htm
Steven

Thanks for the response, keep it coming!

Having looked at the MGF ignition circuit I believe I may have identified where to hook up the wiring, it appears to be similar to the MX5 wiring, perhaps someone else could have a look at the circuit and see what they think

http://mgf.virtualave.net/sb2.jpg

Does any one know anything about the S2000/Bentley/Demon Tweeks starter buttons, are they a 'normally closed/normally open' combined switch like that used for the Miata? The normally closed bit of the switch appears to be the clever bit in the maita circuit, as when pressed it cuts off the power to accessories during the start.

Does anyone have any more details of the Demon Tweeks starter button as i haven't seen this in the catelogue, (though mine is last years): details of the switch, colour, price, part number?

The VX2200 has an alloy starter button in the centre of its dash, aren't Vauxhall parts supposed to cheap?...*grin*, i wonder if the local dealer has it stock or can order it?



Paul

The S2000 button says 'Engine start' on it which i thought was rather nice (not sure if its £45 nice though!). The Fiat coupe also had a starter button towards the end of its life, i wonder if Fiat might be cheaper that Honda.

The Bentley button appears to be plain red with a chrome surround similar to the S2000, but has no graphics. The Fiat coupe button has something written on it ( which i can't read on the photos i have of the car), but seems to stand more proud than the honda or bentley button.
Paul

Rob bell wrote:

> Of course the effect is more impressive if the button fires up a big V8 or straight six, but we can't have everything can we? ;o)<

Hmmmmmmm. Big red starter button .... Old Jags, early Minis (directly onto starter solenoid wasn't it )- it's all coming back to me now. Not quite the same twisting a key is it?

Too right Rob! Some years back when Gloucester Freight Rail Motive Power Depot was being shut down an employee invited my two sons and me to have a look over a then fairly new Class 60 Heavy Freight Locomotive, one of the last on the depot before closure. These Class 60s are the last of the true British built freight locomotives and are impressive beasts! Following a lengthy pre start up check procedure of the locomotives many systems you can imagine the look on my son's face, then aged 10, when invited to start it up. Instructed to hold the big starter button down for fully twenty seconds whilst the various systems were primed, those 3000hp then burst into life - a real thrill and not just for my two boys! I want one now and understand why lucky people like Pete Waterman have things like these of their own to play with.
John McFeely

Wouldn't it more sense to make it more difficult for someone to figure out how to start your car?
Dumb F'er

>>Done this on the midget, not to start the car but for saftety/security. I have also installed a starter button but its crappy compared to the S2000 jobbie. http://www.powercars.co.uk/console.htm <<

Nice job there Steven. :o) I've seen this done on an F as well, in this case the electrical isolator was mounted to the electric window switch panel. Sorry, I haven't got a piccie. :o(

Paul, I'm not sure that any other modern cars have starter switches. If any come to mind, I'll let you know. Not 100% sure about the electrical circuit- these usually takes hours for me to understand them. Perhaps Dieter/ Carl have a clear an incisive thoughts into this?

A 3000 hp loco wasn't quite what I had in mind John, but yeah- that must have been impressive! LOL

Rob Bell

Hmmm...

I was thinking about installing a socket into the front bumper somewhere, that only contacted after you'd turned it about fifteen times, then I could stand at the front with a big wheel-nut spinner, and...

But anyway. If you had the flip-up cover, could you install it into the top of the gearstick?

E
Ed Clarke

<<But anyway. If you had the flip-up cover, could you install it into the top of the gearstick?>>

My mate Q has the copyright to that!
James Bond

Ha!

Just wait 'til you see my bullet-proof rear screen. It's OK, except unzipping it can be a little tricky...
Ed Clarke

Maybe its time Mike Satur started work on a button(/crank!) mod for the car. including button & surround and wiring etc. i reckon he'd get a lot of takers.
Matt

Ok I've had a look at the circuit diagram. Unfortunately, it wouldn't really pass in my drawing office as the terminology in the switch matrix chart does not line up with the switch regarding abreviations and words. However, I can easily work out that when you turn the ignition switch to crank over the engine; all auxiliary power equipment and the blower motor are disconnected and only ignition and cranking are on. When the ignition key/switch is sprung back, then the auxiliary circuits and blower are reconnected and the ignition remains on to keep the engine running. Of course the cranking is then off.

If any of you were to try to implement such a switch in your cars, you would really need ensure that this function remains so that all juice can go in to cranking and ignition only for startup.

The switches you often see in these racers like Drayton Manor Cars etc just switch on ignition and then have a sprung release on the switch for cranking the engine.

Of course it will still work if you left all other circuits connected while cranking, but is not the preffered way as it could be the difference between start or no start with a very low battery charge.

Hope I've put you off now.

How about a manual crank start on this transverse engine with a crank handle through the side rear wing?
Martin

Postings that start like this are generally dodgy but...

I'm no expert but:

There must be two circuits, one that is only complete when the key is in the 'cranking' position, and one that is complete when the key is at position 2.

Surely we would just need a new circuit with a couple of relays. When the new circuit is complete (by depressing the button), a relay completes the cranking circuit (bypassing the key switch cranking posiion), and another relay is used to break the remaining circuit.

I wouldn't think this would be two complicated, just a little bit fiddly.

I've got to admit, I haven't looked at the diagram, so feel free to correct me Martin.

Nigel
Nigel Hannam

An easy if less than ideal way would be to make it a two hand operation. ie the key needs to be turned to the ignition position and then the button needs to be pushed at the same time. Then you could just put a simple switch on the crank bit. easy peasy,

i am clearly an elctronics genius - well actually i have been more than likely looking at the wiper circuit diagram
Matt

I don't see what the problem is...

for my midget i simply took the wire from the ignition switch that is used to start the car and "broke it" by adding the starter button in parallel with it. this way to start the car you turn on your ignition as normal but it won't start until you hold down the starter button.

very simple.
Steven

I think (but i don't know) that is what i thought aswell.

but i think the other guys are going for not having to twist the key all the way, just to the penultimate position and then being able to press the button to make the beast burst into life
Matt

Martin and Nigel, if you have a brief look at my starting post for this thread you will see a link to a site describing how to fit a starter button to an MX5. You will see that that circuit does indeed use two relays and a NC/NO combined switch which when pressed switches the power over to crank and cuts power to the accessories as you have both suggested. What do you think of the MX5 instruction and do you know where i can get a suitable NO/NC switch, as no luck yet with my enquires.

Martin, refering to the MGF circuit diagram and to the circuit for the MX5 set up could you comment on which wires to the switch should be tapped into to form a similar circuit (with the relays and the switch) to the MX5 set up. (I'm guessing it the L/W wire from crank and the Y wire for accessories?)

Matt you're right, my idea was to not have to hold the key turned to the crank postion while pressing the starter. (this is like the MX5 setup)
Paul

More details about the Demon Tweeks starter button kit:

Its put together by a company called Richbrook who make other accessories,

http://www.richbrook.co.uk/main_menu.html.

No picture on their web site or in the latest Tweeks catalogue but i'm told there is a photo of it on page 44 of the present (Feb) issue of Max Power. I haven't seen it but i'm told it makes the button look very large when actually the bit you push is about the size of a £1 coin, total diameter of the button and surround being about 25mm. The product is a kit which includes wiring and instructions not just the button. There's some confusion about the price of the kit but seems to be about £30-35.

Available mail order only from Demon Tweeks.
Paul

I was looking in my car last night, and i reckon there is aperfect position for it. Next to the dash board light dimmer switch there is a blank plate, looks like it was made for a starting button to me.

a big...fat.....red button
Matt

WHY oh WHY - can some one explain to me WHY you need a starter button?

It only seems like yesterday that the 'lads' were fitting the new fangled key-switch starters to replace the starter buttons in their cars.

Ted - puzzled.
Ted Newman

I doubt you'll get a good answer,Ted. The only good idea I've seen on this thread is a crank hole in the side of the car for hand starts. If they don't want to be guite so retro, they could go to the foot operated starter pedal, or a pull handle as on the TD. Maybe they really wanted an MX5?
Dumb F'er

I like pushing buttons
Matt

Hopefully I can add a bit of experience to this thread. I had an F for 4 years and sold it last summer (to a member of my family, so I can still drive it - smart move!)

I replaced it with a Fiat Coupe Turbo - I decided speed was my primary issue this time. It is a 2000 MY car with - the starter button (and a six speed gearbox) - I can confirm that it is still satisfying after 5 months to get into the car, turn the ignition on and then press the brushed aluminium button. I often grin at the same time!

The switch in the Fiat works exactly as the third position when you turn the key, it has no effect when the engine is running. It simply pokes out of the facia to the left of the steering wheel, it might go in the F. There was a limited edition coupe that had a red button, but i think the solid aluminium one looks classier.

To answer the people who say is a retrograde step - it takes all sorts, noone is right or wrong.

Cheers

Steve
steve

>>WHY oh WHY - can some one explain to me WHY you need a starter button?<<
How do you start your motorbike ?

Steve
(I'm quite happy turning the key in the MGF - the less complex the better as far as car electrics go)
Steve

Steve

You missed the point completely! My bike does not have a starter key but this is due to the limitations of the steering lock position on a bike so it has to have a seperate starter button and kill switch - you might look a little silly if on stalling the bike at the lights you then had to put the bike on its stand and 'climb' under the fairing to access the starter switch, OK so on my bike I wouldnt actually have to do that but you would on many others.

Ted
Ted Newman

Ted - I'm sorry, I was just being silly.
I would have put a 'tongue in cheek smiley' at the end if I knew how to !
If people want to put a starter switch into the F then good luck to them - it's an interesting project. They may want to consider how a prospective buyer would view the mod. Personally, I would not consider a used car with modified electrics.

Steve
Steve

OK Steve and I agree with comments on mods.

BTW smiley faces:- :-) or :) or BG or LOL or ROFLOL etc. etc.

I think there is a web site dedicated to such things and I am sure someone will know its URL.

Ted
Ted Newman

TQBH a starter button is not something that I'd put on my car, but I understand why someone would want to, and I am interested to discover how it might be done.

What amuses me is how something like this polarises opinion! Why shouldn't someone consider a button starter?

Is this an age and experience issue? When I think of starter buttons, I think of race cars. I don't know why, but it conjours an image of a Le Mans Blower Bentley... Basically, there is more occasion associated with starting an engine with a button. Perhaps starting a car with a key is just... well, just too mundane?

Maybe this is where some folks feel that we've lost the plot (okay, maybe we have LOL)- as they may well remember the inconvenience of laborious starting procedures, and having to start their car with the action of a switch. The combined ignition/steering lock/engine starter was an impressive step forward in practicality and convenience.

I see the idea of a button starter as a 'bit of fun'. It's about being a little bit different. And as we all know, that's what MGF motoring is all about.

Rob
Rob Bell

Rob

Yes you are right about 'memories' - to me a Big Red Starter Button brings back memories of my coach driving days the AEC did not even have a key to switch on/off the power just a bloody great big tumbler switch and then a red starter button the size of a 'half-a-crown' - yes I know you dont know what an half-a-crown is:)

The only thing 'racey' about those memories was the 'crumpet' on board the tours!!

Ted
Ted Newman

I know this is going terribly off-topic but....

You know in the Mad Max films, Mel Gibson pulled a red button and some big belt stuck to something stuck out of his car's bonnet started moving and made the car go very quick.

What was that then?

Jonathan
Got Stripes? - http://members.tripod.co.uk/stripy_miata
Jonathan McCormack

I'm just rebuilding the dashboard in my 1969 Land Rover, and have parts from a company called Europa? I'll look tonight for their catalogue for full details. They do various starters and aircraft toggle switches.

I'm going for the option of having to use the key and starter together.

a) because I want simple curcuits

b) eliminate false hits (ie when driving)

c) I think it will be more secure against theft.

I'm still deciding between the push button or the toggle switch which has a cover.

The very best bit however is the fact that which ever one I do, I 'm firing up a 3500cc Rover V8, and nothing can beat that tune.

P.S. why not go the whole hog and remove that awful pull beam stalk and replace it with a floor mounted one. JOKE!

Alan

Mad Max's device was a mechanically-driven supercharger. Like a powered K&N.....

N837 OGF
Hugh

OK....this is where you all find out just how sad I am. At the motor show last year, I sat in the Honda S2000 and pressed and pressed the starter button whilst making Rrrrrvvvvvvvvv sounds.............yeah, the stunning woman stood next to it looked at me at though I was a total knob aswell!!!

Oh well....


Dave
Dave

How about fitting a starting handle too?!?!?!?

I can start my 1971 Morris Minor with the handle which is useful as I often drain the battery by leaving the lights on. Perhaps I could do a really cool job by blanking off the hole I drill for the handle with another petrol cap. Added bonus of additional security as you'd need a key to open the extra petrol cap for handle access.

Only worry is that I would get confused when filling up!!! What do you think guys/gals?!?!?
John O'Gadhra

John

Brilliant idea! BTW which side is the 'front' of the engine and does the engine have a starting handle dog fitted?

But I also like the idea of having a big red button on the boot lid which you push as you go 'brrrrrrrm' etc.

Ted :-)
Ted Newman

Oh dear guys,

We are repeating ourselves here by not reading the earlier thread items.

It seems that the "F" market requires a remote starter system witha big red button. I'll see if MSRE can sort this one with a kit and instructions.

Martin
Martin

Hi,

may be of interest. Some german chaps read this thrad also and started one at our german Forum.

Her a picture of Karsten from Berlin.
Installed a gear knob including starter push button.

http://www.rohnke.de/starter.jpg
I'll get his electric schedule and host it later.

Karsten is one of us four ARTRA Roll-Windstop installers and he also just plans to install this instruments to the bottom switch panel.
http://www.dakotadigital.com/products/Ody2Audio.htm
Switches will be moved to the ashtray area on the tunnel.

Cheers
Dieter
Dieter Koennecke

Hang on... he put a starter button on his gear stick, how cool is that?

Jonathan (dead impressed) McCormack
Jonathan McCormack

*g* it was a ready made quit expensive knob.
Guess the buttons 'sense' is for something different 'by design'
:)
Dieter Koennecke

installation instructions for the above mentioned gear stick with starter button can be found on:
http://www.lame-delegation.de/mgf-net.de/starter/
schaltplan_2... pdf contends a schedule with a diode.
In german language only.

Dieter

Dieter Koennecke

Hugh-The Mad Max Blower was a fake lookalike on a standard engine! Looked it up on th net. Nice idea though....
karl

Ok then. I've had MS Race Engineering look at the circuit of the F. They will be looking at producing a kit with instructions now.

If you look at the top left hand corner of the ignition switch page on the F diagrams, you will see the matrix of connections in each switch position. Unfortunately the terminology used in these diagrams has not been constant.

However, we have concluded the following by tracing the circuit:

Matrix labels Ignition switch labels
Aux = POS2-AUX
BATB = IN1
IG2B = 2B
BATA = IN2
IG1 = 1
IG2A = 2A
CRANK = POS4-CRANK

From tracking this labeling we can now design the circuit for the push button starter.

We need to look at what happens when we move from position 2 to position 3 of the ignition switch; so that the key is still required for the first two positions for the security and switching aspect. When we come to cranking and starting the engine; it will be able to complete this by normal operation of the key switch or by using the starter button.

Basically a single contact press to make is required for the starter button which operates a relay which has three seperate contacts (normally closed) and one seperate contact (normally open).

The starter button will activate the relay and only when the ignition switch is in position 2 (as per the switch matrix). This then activates the single relay (though could be a double banked relay depending on availability, costing and material supplier). The relay will:
1. disconect "WLG" (2B) from the satelite fuse box and hence the blower.
2. Disconect "Y" (2A)from the circuit.
3.Disconnect "WR" (AUX) from circuit.
4. Connect "WR" (CRANK) in circuit.
The relay will have to be capable of handling the appropriate current of course; so if there are any DIYers be careful of this.

A recent diagram that was posted on another thread was a bit basic and certainly missed out the requirements I have noted above.

Hope this helps you all for now.

Martin

I've found a starter button at the following URL

http://www.maxpower.co.uk/products/products_styling_template.asp?idArticle=1323

Don't ask why I was on the site, it's just that I've bought Vauxhall Nova so I was compelled to - LOL

As far as the circuit is concerned I don't see it being a problem, but IMHO not worth doing. If I were to do something like this then I'd have it as a remote start, far cooler and I just happen to have been working on a system for remote control garage doors...

Richard
Richard Eaton

Remote Start!

Now that IS cool. Especially if you could make it do all three stages. Wow.
Ed Clarke

This thread was discussed between 20/01/2001 and 02/02/2001

MG MGF Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGF Technical BBS is active now.