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MG MGB Technical - Replacement headlamps

Just caught a cold, having purchased the replacement Lucas SBC3 headlamps bowl kits the outer retaining ring whilst being plated is not chrome but probably zinc. Have just had to buy 2 chrome retaining rings as the as supplied rings look awful.

Just thought I would pass this on if anyone else is contemplating a need to change.
Mark
Mark Dollimore

Where from?
Paul Hunt

Zinc. Do you mean just galvanised? Sound more Series Land Rover!
Allan Reeling

The set was purchased from 'Old Skool Classic Car Parts' and was advertised as being for Austin, Mini, MG, Morris and Triumph.
The retaining rings could well be galvanized but my money would be on zinc plate.
Would appear this is the way these Lucas products are now all made.
M
Mark Dollimore

Mark, the galvenising proceess plates steel with zinc.
john wright

If they are grey and "mottled"/grainy, it's galvanising, a Zinc hot dip process. The slightly gold smooth effect is a plating or vapour deposit process. Either way a cheap process compared with the copper, nickel and chrome electrolytic process known as chrome plating. Anyone called "Old Skool" deserves a bad press!!!
Allan Reeling

Having retrieved the rings from the waste bin and looked closely they are definitely zinc plated with clear passivation. the inner rings provided,that fix to the bowls, have yellow passivation.
The point remains that buyers need to be aware that whereas one would normally expect the outer ring to be chromed with these latest Lucas products ( made in far east as evidenced by the newspaper used to wrap the fixing screws for the inner / outer rings)the outer ring is not chrome plated.
Having read the advert again in more detail it does say double plated with no reference to chrome.
Other retailers of the same product call the outer ring up as chrome effect.
As I said in my first posting 'I caught a cold' from not being vigilant enough to read the small print carefully, something others may also do. I am just trying alert this to others so that they should not make the same mistake.
M
Mark Dollimore

Mark, you touch on the same issue I've raised in the next thread, re. cheap copies of the replacement items we are all looking for (and are prepared to pay for) to keep our cars on the road but also "correct" to our satisfaction. It seems we are losing the ability to choose between buying a cheaper copy (unashamedly NOT bearing the original's characteristics of finish, appearance, resistance to wear, makers' markings,etc), or going for a more costly but far superior product either made by the original manufacturer or made to original specs in every way. How often do we read threads decrying the poor quality of offerings from well-known suppliers of rubber, chrome, plastic and metal parts.
I'm hoping someone responding to your comments might also steer me towards a supplier of better quality lenses at the same time - I hope you don't mind!Regards, John.
J P Hall

Not at all John, the difficulty comes in trying to find and know what are the 'superior' products. In my particular instance I mistakenly thought that 'Lucas' would be the superior product and looked around for the best deal.
It is only by users of this forum advising their findings that these issues can hopefully be eradicated.
M
Mark Dollimore

Hi,


Lucas as a stand alone traditional british company ended in 1996 guys, it merged with a US outfit.


After the demise of Rover Group it's primary home market ened and since then the US company has sold bits of the old company off (Girling, CAV etc).


Various other organisations have paid to use the old Lucas name to market products. In other words don't expect any guarentee of oe quality!
SR Smith 1

I've posted in several blogs and magazines regarding the issue of replacement part quality, i.e., POOR!
One assumes the manufacturers of shoddy items stay in business due to, a) Lack of the quality alternative, or b) They manage to con enough people, or c) People/businesses offering repairs and re-bulids want to maximise profit by buying cheap and are happy for the work to "return" when said item fails, or d) They don't get enough of this rubbish returned because there aren't enough of us who dislike returning to the same job over and over again, or e) The "big" "specialised" dealers, don't exert enough of their considerable buying power to up the quality.
I could provide a list a mile long of the products returned as poor quality, non functioning or ill fitting (sometimes NON fitting!). What we need are "the clubs", Moss etc., to step up to the plate and stock and commission only the best quality products so we can shop with confidence.
Allan Reeling

Or f) people moan on blogs and don't demand a replacement or their money back from the supplier (Allan excepted perhaps). Suppliers particularly hate giving refunds.

I had to email the MGOC three times before they would replace a brake light switch that had been in use for less than 3k and started to fail again, each time they were blaming bad connections elsewhere on the car despite my explaining exactly what tests I had done and what the results were. One would have thought that as they presumably fit these in their workshop, they would have had people coming back and complaining. Or maybe not.

There are others, one supplier in particular that is MGOC 5* recommended but after several problems including an under-reading dual temp gauge and stainless steel wheel nuts that rusted I will never use again. For the nuts they offered to fight my corner with the supplier, and I had to send them a formal letter pointing out their responsibilities to me under the Sale of Goods Act before they agreed replace them with a set that had been checked to ensure they were stainless - easy, as the difference is that they are non-magnetic.

Moss aren't immune, they sent me a set of king-pin shims stamped (or bagged, can't remember) with the correct sizing info - that were all the same size! Replaced without quibble with checked items in that case.
Paul Hunt

Paul,
Your wheel nut story is a good example of why we sometimes get shoddy goods. It may be that your nuts were indeed manufactured from a stainless steel. Some stainless is indeed magnetic, check out your cutlery knives. They have small amounts of chromium (about 13%) so that it can be heat treated and retain an edge. The really resistant SS's have much higher percentages of chromium, plus nickel and others, and I think are non magnetic too. Sounds like some workshop....somewhere......ordering Hex stainless without specifying grade, or even understanding or caring that there is a difference!! AND the trader being equally ignorant or non caring.
Allan Reeling

To be called "stainless steel", a metal alloy must contain only 10.5% chromium. RAY
rjm RAY

Unless we complain to the suppliers over and over that this stuff is just not good enough, and keep sending it back, nothing is going to change.

At the risk of boring some, you may wish to read my summary of my exchange with Tex regarding their inaccurate wiper splines from another series of posts here regarding "genuine" Lucas lenses.
http://www2.mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&mode=thread&access=&subject=71&source=T&thread=2015112022050419815
If everyone complained,not just the occasional lone voice, we may get somewhere.

Another part of the problem is however cost. I personally can't believe how cheap parts derived from the various Asian sources for our cars are today. Being as old as I unfortunately am, and with my father having been in the trade running a very busy car repair business, I can clearly remember how relatively expensive replacement parts were 'back then'. But despite this I hear of people repeatedly complain about the high cost of currently supplied parts rather than about their appalling quality!!
I recently managed to source six original genuine RHD Lucas sealed beam headlights for a Sydney MG retailer. They wound up costing him, including freight from the USA under $50 each. However he subsequently expressed regret in proceeding with the purchase, saying that his customers would be unwilling to pay the cost for them, and would prefer cheaper alternatives!
Clearly in many ways it is we the customers who are to blame.
T Aczel

I know exactly what you are referring to. I purchased the "Lucas" halogen upgrade for my MGB from one of the main US suppliers.

The outer ring on one was too narrow and would not fit over the light. I complained to the US Supplier and their response was to send me two new outer rings. These did fit, but as stated, the quality is very poor.
Bruce TD4139 Cunha

10 years ago I had a lengthy exchange with Heritage regarding a new roadster shell, particularly the inaccuracy of door openings, positioning of captive nuts, badly rippled panels, brackets welded in the wrong place and a 15mm too narrow grill opening caused by inaccurate wing fabrication. They were less than apologetic and offered the usual "guff" in response!
I have just finished a re-build on a Heritage GT whose inaccuracies were even worse, so no improvement in quality control!!! Work included removal and re-welding of panels, expanding door openings, scrapping the tailgate hinges for massive deficiencies in manufacture, re-welding failed spot welds, plus other modifications too numerous to mention. resulting in something like 130 hours input just to get the shell ready for painting!!
Heritage seem to be of the opinion that "if you want a new shell there are no other alternatives so like it or lump it".
Interesting, regarding Tex comments above, that heritage also distribute their product too!!
Allan Reeling

Allan's experiences with Heritage shells mirrors what I have heard from others who have used them. Doors and lids were attached rather than fitted, brackets have to be moved, tapped holes are in the wrong place. One friend made the mistake of buying it ready painted, Imagine the grief he had of having to cut and reweld several items on a freshly painted shell.

Surely this falls under the Sale of Goods Act that says an item must be fit for the purpose for which it is intended. What other item would you buy where you have to take it to pieces and rebuild it to make it usable? Imagine buying a washing machine where the door didn't fit and the casing was loose. You would send it straight back. What's different with a car body shell?
Mike Howlett

As far as stainless and magnetism goes, I didn't test the wheel nuts on arrival, but noticed after a year or so that some were developing rust. It was then I tested them, and found all the ones showing rust were magnetic, and all the ones that were non magnetic had no rust. This was on the V8 and some had a magnetic nut and a non-magnetic washer, and others were vice-versa, when the two are 'pinched' together by the manufacturer.

So whatever else two things were obvious - one is that there were two different materials being used in the manufacture, and the other is that one of them wasn't stainless in that it rusted! This is on a car that rarely gets wet, let alone exposed to salt.

I rather suspect that the same manufacturer supplies both types i.e. chrome plated as well as stainless, and had poor quality control in keeping them separate.
Paul Hunt

I gave up on stainless wheel nuts after one got stuck on the stud and wrecked it - I believe the process is called galling. Here's a typical quotation:

"Thread galling mainly occurs with fasteners made of aluminium, titanium, stainless steel, and other alloys which self-generate an oxide surface film for corrosion protection. The application of excessive pressure increases the friction between the mating threads and during fastener tightening the pressure builds between the contacting and sliding thread surfaces. This causes the surface protective oxides to temporarily break down and the interfaced metal high points are removed, the tiny particles of metal jam the thread.

This cumulative clogging-shearing-locking action causes increasing adhesion. In the extreme, galling leads to seizing of the threads, if tightening is continued, the fastener can be twisted off and sheared."

I had a hell of a job to get it off, and no, it wasn't cross-threaded and yes, it did have some light oil on it. Further reading shows that it isn't so uncommon for stainless nuts on steel threads to bind and damage the softer component. I'd rather have slightly rusty steel nuts.
Mike Howlett

Not had that problem so far, I'm surprised it happened with oiled threads, mine spin on and off with finger-tips. I use the standard brace to spin them on then torque them to 60 ft lb. I did have two front tyres fitted at one place that used an air-gun to refit the wheel nuts - until it chattered! He then used a torque wrench and of course it clicked without turning the nuts any further. At home I tried slackening the nuts, a couple only moved at 120 ft lb, then the torque wrench broke! How anyone is supposed to undo those with the standard brace at the roadside is anyone's guess. I complained to the company but they just came back with the standard guff "All our staff are trained to the highest standards blah blah blah". Neither the AA nor Trading Standards were interested. After that several of the front nuts were sloppy on the threads, but nuts from the rear were 'normal' and front nuts on the rear studs were also sloppy. That was one of the reasons why I changed all the nuts, the other being that they were originals with the chrome peeling and the underlying steel rusting.

Several web sites talking about stainless galling make reference to:

1. Slowing down the installation RPM speed will frequently reduce, or sometimes solve completely, the problem. As the installation RPM increases, the heat generated during tightening increases. As the heat increases, so does the tendency for the occurrence of thread galling.
2. Lubricating the internal and/or external threads frequently eliminates thread galling. The suggested lubricants should contain substantial amounts of molybdenum disulfide (moly), graphite, mica, or talc.

Another reason for not spinning nuts on with an air-gun.
Paul Hunt

Paul, Have a look at this,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_steel_grades
Look at the printed section it will explain a lot.
I also have never had a problem with SS wheel nuts. Always use anti-seize, air gun (not set to Guerrilla) set to just run the nuts and centralise the wheel then torque wrench to finish.
Allan Reeling

Most auto repair shops simply set their air powered impact guns to maximum and never adjust them after that. I think that their approach is to get you to return to them just to get your wheels off. This is even worse in the trucking industry, where 1" impact guns are the norm. RAY
rjm RAY

Printed section? Or lists and tables? I am aware that there are 'ferritic' grades (i.e. 400-series in that link) which presumably exhibit a level of magnetic attraction as I was in communication with the Metalurgy department at Birmingham University before I tackled the supplier about the problem as I wanted to know the ins and outs. I also see that lower resistance to corrosion is indicated.

The point is that the supplier clearly had two types of nut and washer, mixed up, and I really don't see how anyone could expect a 'ferritic' grade to be suitable for wheel nuts described as 'stainless', which to the layman surely implies that they won't rust. There would be even less point in them over the standard chrome-plated, which at least are rust-free (or should be!) until the chrome and underlying layers are damaged.
Paul Hunt

While I do apologise for drifting off the topic, Allan Reeling's story about the tight "Heritage" door gaps remind me of a tale that some might find interesting.:
The MGA and MGB were assembled in Australia on a subcontract basis by "Pressed Metal" in Enfield in Sydney. (Different company to the UK "Pressed Steel").
In 1968 MGB assembly was transferred to the parent BMC(Australia) plant in Zetland, Sydney. The guys there were determined to make a great MGB, with the tolerances better than the UK cars. They endeavoured to get the body gaps very close and even. However when the first cars came off the assembly track onto their own wheels, they found they couldn't open the doors!!! The door aperture gaps closed up a little under the car's own weight! (Surprising given the stiffness of an MGB shell).
Rather than trash the first few cars they drew up a modified door skin to fit to these cars. The first two or three went around again, presumably the next few had the modified doors fitted on the line.
I've personally seen the full size drawing of the modified door skins for these earliest cars at the home of John Lindsay. John's office was in the CAD 3 building, just off from the MGB assembly line in the same building.
T Aczel

Did they make their own doors then? Surely the body shell arrived complete ... or did it?
Paul Hunt

Paul, the MGB body shell did NOT arrive complete. In fact the MGB was assembled in Australia from the smallest components including the sheet metal. Unfortunately just now I'm in a hospital bed having undergone foot surgery yesterday, so I'm not in a position to find links to post for you. If you Google, of all places, the Chicagoland MG web site they somehow have obtained a series of photographs from BMC (Australia) showing a large number of small body components for instruction from the UK parent for the assembly of the larger sub components and assemblies and, ultimately, the entire body. (Hopefully they are still there).
Unlike Abingdon, which really was only a final assembly facility, the complete MGB was constructed on site at the one factory in Australia from the smallest components.
Most overseas (and indeed iAustralian) people aren't aware just how big an operation BMC (Australia) was. For the mainstream mass market models such as Austin, Morris etc even the body panels were pressed in Australia (BMC had the largest press in the Southern Hemisphere). A and B series engines were built here right down to casting the blocks and heads here.
For lower volume models such as MG, more of the content was fully imported. Engines and transmissions for example for the MGB were imported fully assembled. Local content, including parts and labour, on the MGB was 45% of the total cost of the car. Profit margins were generous too. They had to sell 10 Minis to make the same profit they made from selling a single MGB.
T Aczel

Found it here Paul:
http://mgbsmadeinaustralia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/MG-CKD-parts.compressed.pdf

Plus:
http://mgbsmadeinaustralia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/mgb_ckd_assy-2.pdf

And, you might find this interesting reading
http://mgbsmadeinaustralia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/MGB-Birth-of-a-B-SCW_OCT_1968.pdf
T Aczel

Thanks for posting those - fascinating. I was under the impression CKD stood for 'completely knocked down' i.e. fully dismantled, but that can't include the body other than front wings, doors, boot lid and bonnet. Obviously the term was stretched.

The interesting thing is, as you had your own jigs to assemble the body, are your axles offset to left, right, or neither!?
Paul Hunt

Paul, the Dorman jigs were built to order in Melbourne. I remember John Lindsay telling me "they were terrible things". As I seem to recall him telling me, (memory fade is a terrible thing) once they'd finished building the first body, they then found that couldn't get it out! They then spent the Christmas close down period modifying the jig to be able to extract the completed shell (again from memory), by altering one part to swing out.
The rear axle (or was it the body?) was offset in the Australian cars to the left, just like the English built ones. I could never fully comprehend that either.

It's been a very long-winded answer, but yes, modifying a door skin, or a door, or for that matter a narrow tunnel Mk I body to fit the later 4 synchro gearbox was something they'd manage very easily. They could, and did, engineer a vehicle right from scratch.

Oh, and I noticed a typo earlier; the MGB line was in CAB 3 (not CAD 3); "Car Assembly Building 3".
T Aczel

T (Tim,Tom,...??), your comments are fascinating to a B (GT) owner in Aus who has also run B Roadsters in London - especially the reference to the offset rear axle, because my presumably Australian built '73 BGT certainly had the left-of-centre rear axle complete with tyre rub on R/H corners, until we fixed it by rearranging the axle mounts to obtain a central position. Thanks for the interesting history about assembly in this country - we never stop learning! John.
J P Hall

Hi again John
I'm Thomas, but mostly known as Tom. I added the hotlink in case it might come in use for you or others.
Your 73 MGB GT would definitely not have been Australian built.
Firstly they only built roadsters in Australia, never the GT. (Same for the MGA; the coupes were always fully imported).
Secondly the last MGB was built in Australia in November 1972. See the attached photo.
(Actually it wasn't quite the last, but was the one rolled out for the event. There were probably a few left behind for rectification that trickled out later).
I suspect your 1973 MGB GT was a private import.


T Aczel

Great info Tom, thanks for that. And apologies again to Mark for the slightly meandering thread - so often one interesting point leads to another. Speaking of which, it's good to see that the B in your attached photo has the front lights/lenses correctly oriented with the (white lens)indicator on the outside, and the rubber inserts in the overriders the right way up! Many cars are seen with one or both wrongly fitted - although in the case of the front lights it might be deliberate, to place the indicator on the outer corner? Regards, John.
J P Hall

I agree. Most sincere apologies to Mark.

As for the orientation of the front indicator/side light lenses John, a source of confusion may be based on the fact that from our belated introduction of the Mk II models in August 1968, (another story to retell there!) till the introduction of the black recessed BL grille in 1970, those lights were reversed on the Australian assembled MGB.
Here's a photo confirming the fact.


T Aczel

"my presumably Australian built '73 BGT certainly had the left-of-centre rear axle complete with tyre rub on R/H corners"

If the axle is left of centre, i.e. a narrower gap on the left than the right, then it will rub on left-hand bends, not right. This is because the body will tend to move to the right, narrowing the gap at the left even further.

Also from my tests moving the axle is not the thing to do, that will make the car crab. I took a series diagonal, track and wheel-base measurements from plumb-lines off the axles and the diagonals were the same within a mm or two, but I still had the narrow clearance on the left, and that is with the left-hand arch clearly bulging out further than the right as in the attached. Note the different angles and distances between the spirit level and its reflection on the left compared to the right. I've no idea if that is common to other cars like the reduced clearance.


Paul Hunt

No apologies required it has been a most interesting thread.

Mark
Mark Dollimore

Quite right, Paul - memory fade.
Mark, I now have info from several suppliers to the effect that new front indicator lenses can be found with Lucas markings but are almost certainly copies (I've just received a set from MGOC, and at least they look right); but that new (not NOS) red/orange rear lenses seem to all be copies, with various numbers appearing, but no Lucas marking. Once again then, proof that no original item should be thrown away.
J P Hall

I wonder how many people knew about early front parking light lenses having horizontal flutes the same as the indicator lenses before the September issue if Enjoying MG. They changed to vertical at some point.
Paul Hunt

I haven't seen the magazine Paul, don't subscribe, but I think the change was very early in the MGB run.; I'm guessing within the first 12-18 months at most. No idea why the change. (It took me years of wondering why they moved the units in towards the grille in 1969 before I tracked that one down).
As for the offset rear axle relative to the body, I loosened off the U-bolts and moved the rear axle across to the right in my MGB. When I next looked a few weeks later it had crept back to where it came from.
T Aczel

Really just for the record on a matter mentioned above.

On the matter of rear axle bias. My mid '69 locally assembled roadster (factory wire wheels) has a RHS bias of 0.025". Yes, I know, not the commonly mentioned finding on these cars.

The two owners before me were solicitor mates here in Canberra (where the car has spent all but perhaps a few months of its life) and assured me it has never been involved in any accident. A pretty complete file of ownership/insurance and service papers and a thorough examination underneath threw up nothing to contradict that.

Perhaps this car was just a fluke.

Or, I wonder, are there any other RHS or neutral rear axles?

Regards
Roger
R Taylor

This thread was discussed between 20/11/2015 and 09/12/2015

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