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MG MGB Technical - HIF4 carbs in '77 MGB
| Listers, I have a set of HIF4 carbs, along with the manifolds and other major components of the conversion, and am getting ready to install them in my 1977 MGB. While there's a lot of information in the Archives I am wondering if there is anyone out there who has done this conversion with a 1977. I'm interested in knowing how to connect the vacuum hose, specifically, and for general information that would allow me to not "reinvent the (Rostyle)wheel". Thanks, Randy Olson 1977 MGB |
| randy olson |
| This conversion is the same for all cars that "need" it (e.g., '75 and on). This means that all considerations, including having to either purchase more restrictive filters than were stock for those carbs OR going "back" to a non-servo brake MC are in effect. Having said that, IF you're not looking to change your distributor, then you'll simply connect your vacuum advance hose the same way you have it now (to the intake manifold, although in this case it'll be on the HIF4 intake manifold versus the ZS integral manifold you're now removing). I'm going to assume you've already dealt with the intake/exhaust manifold changeout issue. Having said all this, I think you'll be somewhat disappointed if you don't "reinvent the Rostyle" (as you say it) on this one. To really complement the carb change, you should have head work, rebuild your bottom end using HC pistons, and go with an earlier spec (or equivalent) distributor (to complement the HC pistons), which means plumbing the rear carb for ported versus manifold vacuum. Your LC engine, with restrictive cylinder head and poorly curved distributor will only marginally improve, versus the "stock" setup, unless you make other changes. Then again, even a few more horses are better than the horribly restrictive condition created using the integral intake/exhaust manifold (which was the worst restriction thrust upon the later cars). On the other hand, a ton of information exists on this topic in the archives as well. Have fun, Barry |
| Barry Kindig |
| Thanks Barry, Which of the intake openings are for connection of the vacuum to the distributor? There are two small ones on top towards the middle, then a large one with a hose connector at a 45 degree angle towards the rear. There's also a large opening that appears to be plugged in the middle. In the fantastic photos of your engine it looks like there's a hose coming off the back at 45 degrees, then one coming out of the center with a 90 degree elbow. The two smaller openings appear to be used merely for supporting the heater pipe. By the way, it looks like the pipes are made from aluminum. What sizes? I'll probably install these carbs and see what happens with the power. The other work on the engine will have to wait for colder weather. Sounds like a good job for over the winter, which is about 6 months here! Today I'm going to see if my son will sandblast the paint off the exhaust manifold. He works in a great engineering shop with all the tools and equipment but I'm not sure how much of it is accessible for work on projects like the MGB! I continue to think of ways to fabricate the air plenum. Yours looks quite professional and neat. I have a little stainless steel that would look nice, but I need to figure out a way to bend and shape it. Hmmm, the shop probably has a brake... But, this is progress, and it's fun! Again, great photos, and your comments are much appreciated. Cheers, Randy Olson 1977 MGB |
| randy olson |
| I'm intrigued. Changing to HIF4's seems to involve a lot of change, and I am thinking of going the same route, so would appreciate a little more explanation please. You say that to complement the carb change, we should have head work, rebuild our bottom end using HC pistons, and go with an earlier spec distributor, which means plumbing the rear carb for ported vacuum. What does head work entail? What sort of HC pistons should we use? Same bore or rebore? What spec of distributor? Plumbing the rear carb where exactly? Also do I recall an earlier thread on the subject of converting the 45DM4 distributor to suit this type of setup, and was Bob Munch not investigating it. |
| Jack |
| Randy, Mike Brown fabricated the aluminum vacuum lines. I can't recall the sizes, however, they mate with their fittings using simple rubber hoses. Had Mike not fabricated these, I would've gone with whatever vacuum line would fit between the rear carb vacuum port and the vacuum advance can on the distributor. The large hose is for the brake servo...works just fine. As far as which port on the manifold, aside from the large port (for the brake booster), just about any of them should be fine for manifold vacuum (I believe the other(s) should be the smaller variety). Just measure the vacuum ports using dial calipers (or whatever you have handy) and pick up the correct ID hose at your local parts store. Purchase rubber vacuum caps for anything you're not going to plumb. The ~ 45 degree connector is actually a PCV valve, which connects to the the front side cover breather via another aluminum tube and requisite rubber hoses at the ends. I complement this with a vented rocker cover oil filler cap. Engine compartment is dry and stays relatively clean. Jack, Here's what worked for me: 1. I outsourced the head work to Mike/Sean Brown in Oregon. Their work follows that as defined in Peter Burgess's book. They also perfected my engine block and balanced the internals. I think I spent the first few hours with my new block simply admiring the craftsmanship. My wife thought such a relationship with a chunk of iron to be odd ;-) 2. AE HC Pistons and matching rings right out of the Moss catalog (Mike did my machine work, so he ensured everything was in order before I assembled the engine). Of course, the pistons/rings must be in the hands of the machine shop PRIOR to any bore work in the block. 3. The block came from an engine that had evidently not been previously bored, however Mike bored it to .020 over (short of anything catastrophic, this block will be with me for a long time). I was going for "breathing-related" improvements, rather than greater displacement, per se...if you read Peter Burgess's book, that's where the gains are. 4. The "Eurospec" distributor (with vacuum advance) out of the Brit Tek Catalog will work well with this setup. 5. Rear carb is plumbed for the ported vacuum advance line just to the outside of the throttle plate on the bottom of the carb (if it were on the inside, it might as well be using manifold vacuum). Mike took care of this, so I don't have precise measurements at the moment. That's about it. Have fun, Barry 3. |
| Barry Kindig |
| Randy, on that HIF intake manifold, the large 45 degree vacuum port is what used to go to a gulp valve and then PCV valve. You can get 5/8 "heater hose bypass" rubber caps that will seal it off. Your choke cable comes up from the bottom and goes into the cable stop at the end of the bracket. The housing actually opens the choke. Your throttle cable goes down from the top and into the cable stop on the back linkage. when you synchronize the twin carbs, you'll have to loosen one of the pinch clamp bolts and adjust it in order to have the carbs synchronized off the cable. The other vacuum ports will work for the distributor. One of them is intended to go to the anti-run-on valve, if you vehicle has one. It's usually on a metal ledge sticknig out from the bulkhead/firewall below the cannister. There are 3 small return springs from the carb linkages to the heat shield. the center line from the vacuum cannister goes to the outputs from the outer side of each carb. The angled outputs from each carb connect to the vent from the pushrod panels through a y-connector and hoses. Get an inline fuel filter. The fuel line just goes into the front carb and there should be a line out that goes straight back to the 2nd carb. Hope that helps! Ken T |
| Ken Thompson |
| Jack, In addition to the excellent comments above, I suggest you get a copy of Peter Burgess' book "How to power tune the 4cyl MBG engine". Gives detailed explanations of all the different systems and how they effect power development. I did this conversion 2 years ago on my 76B, and am one very happy driver. Look for an earlier 25D chrome bumber distributor. It has better advance characteristics. I picked up a spare recently at a swap meet for $20.00. It has no excess shaft play at all.Cleaned it up, and it is as good as the ones some ask $50 to $70 for. Pete H |
| Pete Haburt |
| Many thanks for those explanations guys, dawn may be approaching. I have heard elsewhere that earlier carbs are better than the HIF4's, and it now seems that earlier distibutors are better too. I thought we were in the area of progress, or is it all the fault of that bogeyman, the EPA. Why retro progress I wonder. |
| Jack |
| Jack - every automaker struggled when the more severe emissions laws of the mid-seventies were enforced. The scince and engineering was imperfectly understood, and the technology had not yet been invented. Twenty five years on, we now have emissions laws hugely more restrictive than the ones which first required catalysts, but with advanced catalyst technology, feedback sensors, computerized electronic ignitions and fourth or fifth generation fuel injection, we can have performance and low emissions. With variable valve timing, we can have even more performance. It only took time. One curiosity, though, is that I found out was that the last US rubber bumpers had been restored to last chrome bumper performance right before phase out. The original single carb set up from 75 - 76 restricted torque to about 72 lb/ft, a change to electronic ignition brought torque back up to the high 80's, and the 1980 model had yet another ignition change and torque was back up to 94 lb/ft. The last chrome bumper had an identical torque figure (down from about 100 lb/ft originally) and the two cars tested at nearly identical 0-60 times of about 13.4 secs. This was greatly different from a stock '76, which had 0-60 times of about 18.5 sec. (Horsepower, 1973 to 1980, was still down, but it seems that torque is a more reliable predictor of actual performance.) These figures, though, are for stock engines. By going with dual SU's, and earlier distributor set up, and head work, you are going well past stock, and you'll get a quite entertaining motor. |
| John Z |
| With rain predicted all weekend I decided to pull off the old carb, manifolds, and connections last night. In the process there was a lot of cleanup necessary...oil, dirt, old wiring, hose clamps left over from PO. Today I'll install the new HIF4s. A few questions: 1. There was a yellow/red thread wire near the firewall that appeared to be connected to something around the fuel filter. It is disconnected, and there was a black ground wire taped into it. I took off the ground wire. I think I can take out the yellow/red wire too since it's not connected to anything. But, what was it? I'm thinking maybe the seat belt alarm, or something. 2. I took the clamp off the exhaust pipe under the car, but after spraying, pounding and twisting, I still haven't got the two pipe disconnected. This is pipe between what was the catalytic converter and the muffler. Any secrets on separating these? Heat? 3. The HIF4 carbs that I have came with the linkage and new throttle and choke cables. There are springs around the shaft on the throttle linkage. Are there additional springs needed? I didn't see any in the usual catalogs. 4. Finally, the air filters. Since this engine is stock except for the removal of the emissions, will the conical K&N filters provide adequate air? I would love to fabricate and install a plenum with a larger K&N, but to get the car back on the road quickly, the conical filters are the answer. Also, someone mentioned "offset conical" filters. Are they available? Thanks for all the help. Randy Olson 1977 MGB |
| randy olson |
| Randy, This is only my opinion and not the last word but were I in your position, I'd attack things as follows: 1. I believe the yellow wire near the firewall is probably for the TCSA switch...I'd have to check the wiring diagram but the location sounds about right. If this is where it goes, you won't be using this...just set it aside and ignore it. 2. Based on your description, I'm not sure which pipes your describing, however aren't you going to toss this exhaust system anyhow? (At the very least, you'll either have a new manifold/header and headpipe configuration...it's a good time to replace a rusty, worn exhaust system.) If so, the cutting of anything that is disagreeable (and disposable) is always a solution (wear goggles and a mask for the dust). Me, I have a die grinder as the "tool of last resort" for this sort of thing. If it is inordinately disagreeable, I simply surgically remove the offending component. Some will recommend all sorts of penetrating oils and heat...those will probably work as well...I don't like to wait on things when I'm trying to complete a job like this. 3. For the HIFs, you have 3 additional springs (similar to the throttle return springs on your ZS). 2 for the throttle return linkage (one for each carb) and another for the choke return (shared by both carb enrichment circuits via the common linkage). These connect from the small holes drilled into the standoff surfaces attached to these respective linkages to the corresponding holes on the heat shield...it's pretty intuitive when you see it all together. I thought these were available in the Moss catalog. 4. I think this has already been answered. At this point, short of developing some sort of custom air box, you have two choices: 1. Go with the conical filters (I believe these ARE offset, as you describe but I may be wrong here) or 2. Go with the eariler dual circuit brake servo (as found on the last of the CBBs) and lose your servo assist. It sounds like you're pretty much relegated to the former (#1) option here. The conical filters aren't a very good solution but you will likely see an overall improvement over what you're removing for a variety of reasons. Bottom line, you'll like the change. You can always improve things later. FWIW, Barry |
| Barry Kindig |
| Thanks for the tips Barry, What's TCSA? I was thinking the wire might be for an intertia switch, or something. I followed it back towards the transmission, where it is taped to a white wire, also disconnected (by me when I detoxed the car). I pulled out the entire exhaust just now. It's a little rusty, but looks reuseable. It would be a great time to replace it though, so I'm keeping that thought in mind. I'll need to get the three springs for the HIFs. I guess the ZS spring aren't interchangeable? Cheers, Randy |
| randy olson |
| Randy, Transmission Controlled Spark Advance (TCSA)...the fact that the wire runs to your gearbox confirms it. It causes the vacuum advance to only work in 4th gear (when the unit is connected in series between the intake manifold and the distributor). Now the question is whether or not your vacuum advance is connected directly to the manifold OR if it's still connected via the TCSA (which if it's disconnected from the gearbox switch means that you're not only NOT getting vacuum advance in the first 3 gears but also not in 4th. Until you've switched to an earlier style distributor and plumbed the rear carb for ported vacuum advance, your vacuum advance line should run from the intake manifold DIRECTLY to the distributor vacuum can...with nothing in-between. As for the ZS throttle springs working on the HIFs (down to the lower part of the heat shield), I think they would be hard-pressed to stretch sufficiently. Regardless, you'll need a spring for the choke mechanism. Enjoy, Barry |
| Barry Kindig |
| Randy, You've already done what I was going to suggest - dropping the entire exhaust first, then separate it away from the car where you can be more comfortable to work. Springs - I use only two (one on each throttle connection) and none on the choke. The spring on the choke linkage works fine in my case. I've tried the ZS spring in both the throttle and choke positions and found it will reach the heatshield OK but is too stiff for use. Consider putting new tappet side cover gaskets on while you have full access to them. Mike '79B w/HS4's |
| Mike Janacek |
| Mike, and others, Timely post. I just finished a late dinner after working most of the day on and off on the conversion. I did drop the entire exhaust and once it was in the driveway, it came apart with moderate effort. Now I need a 12" piece to make it whole. Tempted to see what it sounds like with just the downpipe, but... The linkage is installed. I'm puzzling with how the cables work. I have the choke cable installed and it comes in from the bottom, but I haven't yet figured out how to make it work. The new throttle cable is 42" long, compared with 28" on the original, which is much closer to what I need. Not sure how to make the new one shorter. Probably have to get another. The ZS spring on the throttle seemed very tight, before I removed the too-long cable. I haven't yet figured out how or where to use another choke spring. With both the choke and throttle springs on the shafts, do you need more? As for the tappet cover gaskets, they're new. I replaced them last year when I was tired of the dripping oil. The pipe from the front cover connects to each carb right? So, I'm now looking at the emission system, connecting the choke and throttle, piping the heater, replacing a few coolant hoses, and finding air filters that fit. Tonight's questions: 1. Fuel line: There's one in line fuel filter mounted on the firewall. Do I need another? And, I believe the fuel line enters the front carb first, then is piped to the rear. There's an opening on the rear carb on the side towards the driver near the mixture screw that looks open! I hope it isn't because there could be a lot of gas squirting out. 2. Ignition vacuum advance pipe: I installed a 1/4" plastic tube from the intake manifold to the vacuum advance on the distributor. Sound right? 3. Brake booster: Where do I connect it on the intake manifold? I thought it would go on the 45 degree fitting on the back end of the intake manifold, but someone said it was a PVC valve. 4. PVC valve: Assuming it's the device on the intake manifold, where does the pipe from it go? 5. There was an existing pipe from the vacuum canister. Where does it connect to the carbs? And, if the line needs to connect to both carbs, do you simply buy a Y fitting? That's enough for now. If it's raining again tomorrow I should be able to get to these items. Thanks again, Randy Olson 1977 MGB |
| randy olson |
| Randy: 1. one filter is enough. The opening on the raer carb is the vent, there should one on the front of the front carb. Look at page 86 of the Moss catalog. A metal pipe with a tee connects to the carbs and a line takes off from the tee to the charcoal cannister. 2. Correct. 3. The 45 degree plug is just that, a plug. I should be ok for your brake line if you have the the /correct adapter. 4. There is no PVC valve, only a vented crankcase. Look on page 86 again. From the pipe on the front tappet cover item 50 connects to a Y and the top of the Y feeds a line to each carb, items 51 and 52. 5. I think this was answered in question 1. If this does not answer all your questions let us know. Send us some of that rain, our grass looks dead. Regards, Clifton |
| Clifton Gordon |
| Randy, Give me a ring if it might help to talk any of this through while I peer under the hood of my 74. Or I could send you ad hoc digital snaps. - Tom |
| Tom Young |
| Randy, When I referred to the 45 degree pipe as a PCV valve, I was referring to something entirely unique to my setup (you had questioned this after looking at the pictures I provided some time ago). I have the other "45 degree pipe" toward the back of the intake manifold, which goes to the booster on our servo cars, of course. The "normal" setup for the HIFs does not include a PCV valve, but rather the Y-connector to the carbs instead. IF you continue to vent to the cannister, then you'll need a Y-connector or tee to connect from the float bowl vents back to the charcoal cannister. Barry |
| Barry Kindig |
| Big progress today, with a few discoveries and a few more questions. The brake vacuum is now connected off the 45 on the back of the intake manifold. I installed the 42" long throttle cable, and kept it presentable by looping it downward...not necessarily a permanent fix, but it should work despite feeling a little different. Exhaust piping is all back together. Fuel line is connected. Tom, a fellow Ithacan, emailed some pictures and I just got off the phone with him. From what I learned from him I will connect the anti run on valve to the intake manifold. I suppose Moss sells the nipple that screws into the manifold, right? And I now understand that the vacuum canister connects to the two carbs, but I need the piping. One other thing, there's a 1/4" metal pipe on the top of the engine block right behind the valve cover... water connection, I guess...I'll need a tee to connect it to the heater and radiator hose. One thing we couldn't determine is this. There's a wire that was connected to the induction heater, the phenolic spacer next to the carbs. Can this wire be abandoned? An interesting conundrum involving the choke cable was found. There is no set screw connection on the upper plate where the choke cable goes through. Instead, it looks like there is a screw fastener to anchor the cable at the linkage! I tried fixing the cable at the top bracket after loosening it at the linkage, and the choke worked fine. Question: How is the cable fixed at the bracket? It appears that the hole where the cable goes through is bigger on top, so maybe there is a cable stop, crimped to the cable...a rather cumbersome arrangement if you want to dissassemble things. Next, is ordering the K&N filters, finding some aluminum tubing and tee's, and figuring out how the carb tthrottle and choke return springs are hooked up. Thanks for all the feedback, Randy Olson 1977 MGB |
| randy olson |
| I have a few unanswered questions related to the conversion that I'd like to toss out for comment: 1. There's a wire that was connected to the induction heater, the phenolic spacer next to the carbs. Can this wire be abandoned? 2. There's a 1/4" metal pipe on the top of the engine block right behind the valve cover. Does this connect to the heater return pipe? 3. The choke cable appears to be setup to enter from the top, not bottom. Was this the setup on later cars? Thanks for the help in getting me closer to happy motoring. Randy Olson 1977 MGB |
| randy olson |
| Randy, 1. Yes, it can be abandonded. 2. Hard to say, but it sounds like a leftover pipe for the carb float bowl vent to the cannister. The heater return pipe should appear to come from the heater and lead toward the upper radiator hose. The heater return pipe is larger than 1/4" in diameter. BTW, your "stock" heater return pipe may not be compatible with this setup (you will likely need to pick one up for a late CBB). I had mine fabricated. 3. As far as I know, the choke cable on all HIF-equipped MGBs came up from the bottom...it's an odd setup but it works. The set screw is on the top plate attached to the heat shield, which doesn't move. The cable sleeve then rides on the choke mechanism and actually moves with it when the cable is pulled "through" it. In other words, the outer "sleeve" actuates the choke mechansim. Better write-ups are available in the archives. FWIW, Barry |
| Barry Kindig |
| Thanks Barry, I still need to find out from one of the listers what that pipe on the back of the engine block is for (item 2 above). As for the heater return pipe, I think I'll fabricate one myself, also. I tried finding aluminum but it's hard to locate. In the process I ran across a pristine '67 GT that had a copper return pipe, which according to the owner, was the way they were done originally...beautiful car, and the copper pipe looked nice, polished, parallel to the valve cover. The choke cable does work from the bottom (I tried it by clamping the cable with a pair of vicegrips resting on top of the bracket), but I don't think this is the way it's designed. The upper bracket has a small barrel where the cable passes through and there's no fastener there. At the linkage there's a screw that clamps the cable. So it appear the cable comes in from the top and pulls up on the linkage! Maybe that's the way it was designed for the European market. Thanks again, Randy |
| randy olson |
| Randy, I tried to explain the choke cable in my post back at the top. It should come up from the bottom and the linkage should have a collar that it goes through and the housing fits into. Then on the bracket at the top there should be a 1/4 in. head set screw that the cable goes into. Sometimes people tighten the screw too much and break it. I did, and replaced mine with a brass cable stop and set screw. Maybe the PO broke the set screw and tried to re-route the cable down from the top. But originally it came up from the bottom and the housing actually operates the linkage while the cable stays secured by that set screw. There shouldn't be any set screw at the linkage. Once the cable is secured at the top with no slack (choke in "in" position), the housing will stay inside that collar and it should work correctly. |
| Ken Thompson |
| Couple of answers: The pipe behind the valve cover is water. I plan to modify the old heater hose and use it to connect from this fitting to the heater and radiator. Found the answer in a Moss catalog write-up. I tried the K&N conical filters last night, and it was a tight squeeze. So I sawed a space block in half. Tried to reinstall the carbs and found the mounting studs were now too long! Pulled them out and need to find new or modify them, then refit carbs. Also got another throttle cable. The first one was too long...for a right hand drive. The new one is identical except 14" shorter. The choke cable is next, Ken. I'll let you know how if works out this weekend. I carefully examined the bracket where the cable goes through the hole...there's no evidence there was ever a set screw or other fastener there. I could put a cable stop on the cable, but want something removable. More on this later. Thanks, Randy |
| randy olson |
| Randy, Seems to me the 1/4" fitting you mention might be leftover from the ZS carb water choke setup. If so you can cap it off with a rubber cap or fabricate a blanking plate. If that heater return pipe gives you problems: What I did as far as the heater pipe (the one that ran beneath the ZS) interfering with the heatshield was to disconnect the hose from the heater and pipe, rotate the pipe down and add a suitable new length of hose back to the heater. Mike '79B |
| Mike Janacek |
| Mike, Exactly. That 1/4" fitting was connected to the top of the choke. I am under the impression based on the write-up in Moss that you needed to maintain the flow of water through the fitting..."Take the metal heater tube that previouly ran under the original carb and cut the end off 1 1/2" from the small neck. Run the heater hose from the heater box to the cut end of the tube, then connect the tube to the lower radiator hose. Run a smaller diameter hose from the small neck in the tube to the outlet behind the rocker cover." So far, I've cut the tube and collected the rubber hose for installation. Also got new studs for mounting the carbs, since cutting the spacers neccessitated replacement...new ones seem to work based on a quick trial fit last night - there appears to be about 3/8" clearance from the K&N filter to the brake booster. Getting there. Randy |
| randy olson |
| Randy, Many people just remove that fitting (two screws/bolts) cut a piece of aluminum or sheet metal to fit, drill holes in the new "cover", and use the proper gasket and reinstall (using the original retaining screws). You DON'T need to exit water from that fitting. I don't...others don't. It would be just that much more clutter and increase the chances for additional coolant leaks. Barry |
| Barry Kindig |
| Muchas Gracia, Barry. I think I like that solution better than Moss's. On a related subject, from the tappet cover breather pipe I installed a hose up to a Y connector where I installed an aluminum pipe to the rear carb. This pipe is slightly less inside diameter than the rubber hose to the front carb. Will this cause any trouble with the vehicle operation? Randy 1977 MGB |
| randy olson |
| Randy, The diameter shouldn't matter although I don't understand why you ran an aluminum pipe. On my setup (HS4's) I have a hose from the tappet cover to a "Y" fitting, then two hoses, one to each nipple on each carb. Mike '79B |
| Mike Janacek |
| Mike, Just to clean up the jumble of hoses I was trying out a few tubes, parallel to the intake manifold. Hard to find aluminum tube in 1/2" for the water line, went to 6 places out of town today looking. But, things will come together with either tubing or piping, and I can tweak it later. Randy |
| randy olson |
| Yes!!! The car started up on the first try, in less than 5 seconds! I let it warm up a little, eased off on the choke, let the smoke burn off from the painted exhaust pipe, and took it for a spin up and down the block. Unbelievable power difference! Now I need to do the fine tuning on the air/fuel, but it runs so well I hate to touch anything! First a quick trip with the air filter in place. All right!!! Viva la difference, Randy Olson 1977 MGB, sporting twin SU's |
| randy olson |
| Congratulations on your success!! I was leary at first of the HIF carbs but sounds like they're working correctly. My 74 came with HIF's and I've had a lot of bad luck with them and took them off and now have a Weber. But if yours are working correctly, great, all power to you!!!! Ken T |
| Ken Thompson |
| The car is really running well...on day three since the initial start up. I e-mailed the people that I got the carbs from in England, including a picture, and they were amazed to see a bunch of parts they dismantled from a car 6000 miles away two weeks ago now a new car ...all thanks to the internet, which is how we are communicating right now. Technology at its best. Randy Olson 1977 MGB |
| randy olson |
| Great going Randy! Now enjoy the drive! Mike '79B |
| Mike Janacek |
This thread was discussed between 10/06/2002 and 25/06/2002
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