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MG MGB Technical - Fun or remain cautious - OP?

Quickly sum up the issue. Car has 40K on rebuilt engine. A year ago I saw the steady 75lb OP suddenly drop in traffic to 25lbs.

Put in new rod bearings, 3 of 5 big end bearings (for obvious reasons). Then stronger OP spring, raised the idle to 1K and finally the Mann filter. Plus a tested mechanical OP gauge.

OP now stays around 60lbs running and drops to 50 lbs at idle. Unless really hot and in traffic then it goes to around 40lbs.

One racer warned me not to go beyond 3K. I finally have gone to 4K and haven't seen any ill effects.

Should I still remain cautious? Or is it not going to get worse if I spin it higher as I like to do. :)

Appreciate your thoughts.
Max71

Any sudden change is something to be very wary of. Did you find anything wrong with the bearings? Did you Plastigauge them before and after? 3 of 5 big ends? Do you mean mains?

What's the cold pressure? The hot pressures are fine both running and idle.

If you did find a problem with a bearing, now fixed, then I'd say JFDI :o)
paulh4

Not sure how to interpret your code! Assume you have a 3 main bearing engine. How many kilometres on new bearings? Did you check clearances as asked by Paul?
Unnecessary high oil pressure just robs engine power - in your circumstances I would just drive it!
Suggest you read mgaguru pages on oil pressure/lubrication.
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Sorry for the typo. Yes, I did mean 'mains'. It a 5-main bearing engine. I meant I could only do 3 of the mains because the end two cannot be done with the engine in the car.

Bearing looked horrible to me. Badly scored. I did plasti-gauge and some were ok while others were not - meaning too much clearance. One journal on the crank has a bur which I carefully and gently sanded down.

The OP only came up after putting in the stronger OP spring which is not supposed to do that while some camps say it can. Just changing the rod and main bearing did not improve the OP. Keeping the idle higher helped in traffic.

Cold pressure varies. Its hot here and the other day I was surprised to see the OP go to 75 cold which I haven't seen in a year. Maybe that Mann filter?

I'd say over 1K miles on the new bearings. Arrgh couldn't do more than one upload. This is the back of the bearings. Next photo is the front.



Max71

Bearing faces.


Max71

more - rod bearings faces


Max71

Rod bearings back


Max71

Putting a longer, or stronger same length relief valve spring, with no other changes in the valve, is bound to increase the pressure. The only way it wouldn't is if the clearances were so large that even with the massive volume the oil pump moves (one quart per second at 7000rpm for example - http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/of107a.htm) the pressure wasn't getting high enough to open the valve at all.

Conversely, as long as there is enough pressure with large clearances to open the valve, reducing the clearances won't increase pressure. By and large that is, there are likely to be some differences.

I'd say just drive it and enjoy it ... keeping a close eye open for more sudden pressure changes.
paulh4

Paul - That is one of the best explanations I've heard. I was told that spring is only a blow off pressure relief. Only a couple said it would help. Being desperate I put it in.

Don't you think the wear is excessive for an engine with <50K? Moot now just wondering.

So I can wind it out again? I miss that. Out of curiosity what is everyone's idle OP, in traffic?

I put a mechanical gauge in because in comparing it to the electrical one I saw differences. Therefore, I can't be 100% certain when the engine took the OP dump or the sender. It always measured rock solid 75 lbs whereas the mechanical shows many different pressures. Once an issue the electrical showed lower and higher than the mechanical.

Max71

Bearings looked okay to me for 40000 miles. I 'd just drive it and rev as you need. Next rebuild lift the engine and do all the mains after checking if crank needs a polish or regrind.
My 5 brg runs at 65 psi when warm above 1500 rpm. 45 psi at 1000 rpm at idle at 90 deg C after a good thrashing on the track (~500 kms on the engine)!
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Yeah
I'm starting to think it was more of a gauge problem
Your bearings, although scored a bit don't really look all that worn
My vote--have fun, there's nothing there that I can see that would cause a drop in oil pressure

The marks in them bearings are from a bit of rubbish in the oil for a couple of them but mostly from that momentary lack of lube at startup
There is an old saying that the worst thing you can do is turn your engine off
Note how the truckies leave their rigs idling instead of the stop start thing

What brand and grade of oil are you running ?
willy
William Revit

Just to brain pick on this blog.
I always understood that the OPRV was a sort of safety device to overcome a too restrictive, i.e., old and blocked, oil filter. Peak oil flow will continue under these circumstances but largely un-filtered.
Am I right, therefore, in assuming that with too weak a spring, too much oil will by-pass the filter and rate of wear will increase?
Allan Reeling

I meant also to ask. If the spring is too strong, could it be beyond the capacity of the OP to overcome it?
Allan Reeling

As I understand it the valve on the engine dumps straight back into the sump, it doesn't bypass the filter and still go through the bearings.

Given the flow rate of a typical MGB oil pump at least the relief valve is essential or you will get huge pressures which will erode the bearings, causing massive wear. This is why I don't necessarily like higher viscosity oils that result in higher pressures on the gauge - that can only happen if there is less flow through the bearings, and it seems to me that flow through the bearings i.e. oil passing over the whole of the surface is better than high pressure at the oil hole and less oil at the edges of the bearing.

Good filters have their own bypass valve that opens with excessive pressure, which can happen on very cold starts for example. Those that don't - some Fram for example, can burst the filtration medium, then you have no filtering at all.

When I checked my V8 bearings I switched off when fully up to temp and left it for a couple of days, because I didn't want oil dripping onto me working under the car. But on removing the caps I was surprised to see just how much oil was on the shells and the journals, and it still dripped, so plenty of oil on the bearings for cold starts. If their wasn't, then given that our cars probably do quite a lot of cold starts for a given mileage, and certainly many many more than truckers, I don't subscribe to the 'lack of lubrication at start-up' theory unless there is a fault. If it were true our bearings would need replacing very frequently.

Those V8 bearings had done 75k with me and from the POs documentation at least 100k, but were still at or just inside the tolerance for new bearings, showing minimal surface wear. Maybe from 3k oil and filter changes. Having said that the 4-cylinder WSM recommends changing them at 30k for big-ends and 50k for mains, although who would bother changing them at those different mileages instead of at the same time I don't know.
paulh4

The oil filter housing has its own pressure relief valve if filter blocked. See oil flow path explanation
http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/of101.htm
Mike Ellsmore

Allen
OilPressure Relief Valve is as Paul describes and is a dump straight back to the pan and only blows off after the preset oil pressure has been reached
Your other question on spring strength-yes if the spring were to be too strong there would be no pressure relief and the OP gauge would spin around like a tacho
The oil'filter' relief valve is a different valve and is sometimes built into the filter housing and sometimes a part of the filter
This is the valve that opens when it sees a restriction in the filter flow caused by cold oil or a blocked filter
Paul
I agree there is plenty of oil retained in the bearings/crank galleries but it's not enough without pressure
We've all heard how some MGBs rattle at startup
Bearings are designed to float on a skin of pressurised oil and without pressure they are doomed--Max's pics of the bigend bearings are typical of oil starvation, specially that one on the RH end, he only just caught that one before disaster struck
He's got plenty of oil pressure so the cause was possibly too slow getting oil at startup
Mike
Not all MG's are equal and not all have the filter bypass in the housing -so "be aware"
That green MGA at the natmeet that ran it's bigends was a prime example--It had a spin on filter conversion and the housing didn't have a bypass and neither did the filter and it hammered em out--Too many revs before the oil warmed up enough to flow properly
A better oil filter choice would have saved a lot of heartache-or a warmup ???
I went and had a look at a local MG workshop just to check and he had a couple of filter conversion kits in stock -neither had bypass valves and neither of the filters that were with them did either--enlightened him to the facts so hopefully that should save someone else the same drama
Cheers
willy
William Revit

"there is plenty of oil retained in the bearings/crank galleries but it's not enough without pressure"

I agree, for running, but given the millions of B-series (at least) engines and the tens of millions of miles they have run over decades, whatever oil is retained is obviously enough in a correctly functioning engine, or we would all be well aware of it and all the engines would have died years ago. For the vast majority of us it just isn't an issue.
paulh4

As always, a fine education from people here that understand.

In giving it massive thought when this happened, I believe the engine was not turned over until there was OP prior to firing. I was one of the culprits. I had a friend who was an engine 'expert' and we just fired the engine. In hindsight, armed with the basic knowledge I would never do that again and in all rebuilds, the authors state NEVER fire a fresh engine until you get OP.

1, 3, 4 backside wear - could the bearing spun at some point?

oil changed at 3K miles always. Using VR1 20/50 since its the last to have the additives needed. Funny enough I used what another board recommended for initial startup and cam run in. I'm sure it was fine. Plenty of what the engine needs. After 100 miles it was drained and normal motor oil applied.

Don't know the state of the end cap mains. Hopefully, not as bad as #3.

Oddly enough the new oil pump was trashed. I had to put a new one in. I've never seen that much wear on an oil pump, ever.




Max71

oil pump bearing. This was an uprated pump from Moss.



Max71

Drive gear wear.


Max71

Sadly, I did find the end of a hone brush in the sump courtesy of the rebuilder....

Other than those two issues (I know they're big) no idea where crude got in with the frequent oil changes...


Max71

Max
I think you have answered all your questions
After seeing the oil pump pics- all I could think was rubbish in the oil and there wasn't enough loose damage to your bearings for bits of them to have gone through it
After seeing that last pic-I shudder to think
I now think your trouble has been caused by rubbish not being cleaned out of the engine when rebuilt--To find a whole piece of one of them crappy bottle brush hones in there speaks for itself-It probably had thousands of little friends in there grinding away at your oil pump and bearings as well
Cleanliness is the engine builders friend
Anything less will never end well
As far as your question on the rod bearings spinning in the rods-no I don't think so as all the locators are still protruding out and they would have flattened off
On assembling/starting a new engine it's a good idea to pack or at least lube the oil pump with vaseline(petrolium jelly)so that it gets a good sucky start to life and gets oil pressure up quickly
Your admission to starting it up dry wasn't such a good idea but looking at the big picture I'd say it was more a problem with rubbish in the oil killing the pump and the worn pump along with the rubbish has killed the bearings
willy

Paul
I tend to agree-in general but a lot of Bs do have this oil starving problem at startup
There have been plenty of discussions on this Board about oil filters draining back etc causing the dreaded knock at startup
I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree on the need for oil pressure at startup
Cheers
William Revit

The oil pump was primed with vaseline. So much for the wonderful speed shop that was recommended. Bad mistake.

So the idea that the oil filter should've caught junk isn't fesible? 100 miles and it and the oil was changed. I guess the damage was done.

In light of all this. Still ok to wind it out? No budget to pull it and right all the other issues which I'm sure means turning the crank, checking cam bearing, etc....
Max71

Depends--
When you say you plastigauged for clearance and some were ok and some were not--
Was that with the old bearings or the new
Did you measure the big-end journals after you cleaned up the damaged one
Was the 'burr' a piece of bearing material stuck to it or where something had come out of the oil hole


Another thing that can damage big end bearings is over advanced ignition timing
I'm fairly sure yours was an oil problem but all the same, I would check and make sure that the timing isn't going past 30-32 deg 'total' advance--with the vac. hose disconnected (for testing)

willy
William Revit

Max,
Apart from the inexcusable lump of honer being left in there, I'm afraid it is indicative of the stupidity and lack of care, of the "engineers"***???. As Willy stated, "Cleanliness is the engine builders friend", it's also the engine's friend. I would be surprised if these rebuilders couldn't be bothered to remove the oil gallery plugs and flush the oil ways out. Not to mention properly cleaning the crankshaft after the re-grind. If this set of muppets have a web site, I hope you have made a suitable comment on it!!
Allan Reeling

How do you get oil pressure on a 4-cylinder before turning it over, let alone how you get oil pressure before each start?

For the former, the V8 is a boon as with the distributor out you can put a drill on the oil pump and definitely get pressure before the first start after a rebuild, which helps charge the hydraulic tappets as well as everything else. Mind you, getting the distributor back in at any time is a challenge, unlike the 4-cylinder.
paulh4

Answers:

Plasti-gauge was done I'm pretty sure with new bearings. Could not do the two big end bearings because I did it in the car.

The burr - its a little hard to recall. It seemed part of the journal with a corresponding groove in the bearing.

Timing is always set 30-32 max with vacuum disengaged.

As far as the oil galleys: The friend who did additional assembly went on and on how he cleaned the journal like he would a vintage gun which he did also as a side business. All I can do at this point is report.

I did put a photo and a report on Yelp about this yo-yo's. I had the head off three times because of sealing problems. Finally I sent the head to an expert who told me the guides were put in wrong ie intake and exaust reversed. The head was originally done by Huffaker and the best part of the engine.

I provided complete instructions how I wanted the engine done. Sadly I think they put an inexperienced high school kid on it and didn't care. However, charged me like an expert did it.

Believe me, I was shocked to find what I did in the sump and fully understand how important cleanliness is in rebuilding.

Paul - after I did the bearings I cranked the engine with the dizzy disconnected until the OP went up. Then I fired the car. This is what should have been done a long time ago when the engine was rebuilt.

Max71

Max,
See this for info on how to prime lube system after major overhaul.
http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/of103.htm
Worth also to read all papers in MG Engine Tech - Oil System for next rebuild!
http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/of1.htm
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Thanks Mike! Will do. I'll have to do a lot of research for next time. Trouble is believing their responses ;)
Max71

I'd um ------Drive it like you stole it---
What would you usually rev it out to--??
If it's got that Huff. head, do you know what camshaft is hiding in there
willy
William Revit

Huff head and VP11 cam, previouly a custom Huff cam. The good thing is it runs great. I just can't have it take a dump.

The Huff head is the star. I remember when I lived down south going to Huffaker to get the head which they kindly installed along with their cam. I got a speeding ticket on the way home as it breathed so well I had it up to 100 when I heard the sirens. :)

Usually take it to redline - a lot. It can go past redline easily. Which is why it kills me to only go to 3K and now 4K. Aside from the OP there's no adverse feel in pulling.
Max71

Max
A problem
Will I --- Won;t I
VP11 will be running out of puff at 5500-6000 so reving over that is a waste really, better off in the next gear--but that's not the issue here--
If it was mine I'd be giving it to it, but that's easy for me to say from the other side of the planet
You won't feel any difference power wise if something is happening to the spinny bits until after it happens
It sounds like the guy who cleaned your crank up was happy with what he had done and if the rest of the journal was ok, I can't see any reason not to drive it like it wants to be driven
Had your old bearings been copper based, then yes I would be more worried about wear to the crank but with those in the pic.they are soft enough to cushion the crank from little pieces of foreign matter and tend to mark up easier than the harder copper brgs. and with your oil and filter choice I'd think you are now OK
willy
William Revit

The OP relief valve IS a blow off valve which regulates the OP in the riser from pump to the outside rear cooler / filter connector - a stronger spring or additional shims will raise the OP here.

Gauge OP is measured in the right side gallery AFTER it has been through the cooler / filter so even if the pump is regulated correctly then you may see lower OP if the cooler / filter are restrictive.

Large bearing clearances will also lower OP.

Cleaning the galleries is not easy - even rifle brushing both high and low pressure galleries will leave dirt in various nooks & crannies - especially prone to dirt collection is the drilling ABOVE the oil pump drive which often gets missed.

My guess is that grit from the honing balls was lodged in that drilling and that wrecked the pump - the lack of wear on the shells indicates that the high pressure gallery was clean.

That grit probably found its way onto the seat of the OP relief valve and caused the sudden drop in OP.

Chris at Octarine Services

"My guess is that grit from the honing balls was lodged in that drilling and that wrecked the pump - the lack of wear on the shells indicates that the high pressure gallery was clean.

That grit probably found its way onto the seat of the OP relief valve and caused the sudden drop in OP."

Interesting. Once I saw that ball I shuttered to think of it in the engine with grit doing damage. I tried to do a visual on the seat of the OP blow off valve but without a borescope I couldn't properly inspect. I did put a new valve in there when I put in the new uprated spring. My understanding is the seat cannot be rehabbed unless out of the engine and lapped. Originally I just replaced the spring and valve which made no difference. Only the uprated spring did.

When I replaced the bearings I used tri-metal bearings.

William: right on the cam. It was the Huff cam that allowed me to bury the tach. Sadly that cam had worn lobes and during the rebuild it couldn't be measured accurately to have a new one ground. Huffaker, since moving onto Mazda racing, didn't have any notes handy. I went with the APT since they seemed to be the best of the cam makers.

This picture seems the most accurate of many years of frustration. During the re-do on the bearings, I carefully cleaned the entire area of the inside bottom of the short block with non-lint cleaning towelettes and fast evaporating fluid which was then re-scrubbed with simple engine oil. Without the means to pull the engine and pull it apart the rest of the damage can't be seen. Just hope the cam is ok. It was a brand new billet, not a reground.
Max71

Chris to your comment:

"if the pump is regulated correctly then you may see lower OP if the cooler / filter are restrictive. "

Do you recommend I remove the oil cooler and thoroughly clean it? It and the hoses are recent to the rebuilt. At least the hoses are. Maybe the cooler is a few years older.
Max71

Yes - normally I would recommend a replacement of the cooler if the previous engine had a failure - but a clean out is a good idea - that grit will have found its way through the pump to the cooler and filter housing.

Whilst it may well stay that side of the filter element, it is not worth the risk - the filter relief valve has only to open once to let the grit through into the main gallery and thence to the bearings.
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris - best to get a new one then? Or if you think I can clean it out what do you suggest? I'm open to either. I need this engine to stay healthy for a while even though I wish I had the means to pull and examine.
Max71

Just checked and new ones from Moss are only $47 USD. But my local place BPNW said the best are MOCAL. I'm not sure what best means but the price is $145 USD.

How much better can they be? In quick research I have been reading about new oil coolers have debris in them which would defeat the purpose. Appreciate the advise...
Max71

If you have access to an air line and a wash gun then I would take the cooler out of the car and use the wash gun to blast paraffin/kerosene through the cooler while holding it vertically so the fluid runs top to bottom.

Do it in a bucket so you can examine the expelled fluid for grit / metal flakes.

Repeat in both directions until the fluid is completely clean.
Chris at Octarine Services

Ugh. Unfortunately I do not have access to that. I called a radiator shop and they would charge about $75USD.

I know I paid over $100 years ago so I suspect its a proper one and not a cheap import.

What you said makes perfect sense about the cooler being contaminated.
Max71

Max
Anyone you know have a steam cleaner or high pressure washer like a Karcher you could take the cooler to
Don't give it full pressure though just blasts and that will dislodge anything in there
Or your local truck workshop or engine reco joint would have a kero gun for sure and it would only take them a couple of minuites to flush it out
To be honest I thought you had already cleaned everything you could get at before reassembling
After you refit the cooler don't forget to fill it up with engine oil----------
willy
William Revit

:-)

Hi Willy. You assumed I was intelligent. Why I didn't think of the cooler amazes me. I had asked on another board at the time and no one mentioned it. One of the reasons I only subscribe to this board.

I was thinking the oil filter would catch it although now its obvious that needs to be cleaned or repaced.

I'm going to a parts house now that is near a bunch of truck places. I'll ask them. I counted the rows and it came to 12 which seems impossible if they only came in 10 or 13. One must be hiding.

Now I'm afraid to drive the car until this gets resolved. Although I have an appt. tomorrow. I wonder if it will positively affect the OP?

Thanks all of you. Ugh on the stupidity.
Max71

Just got back. Visited a huge truck rebuilder. Explained. He said chances are its shot because of the galleys beintg so small. He said I probably have low oil pressure because of it. haha.

I'll bite the bullet and order a proper one. I'm too worried about cheap import ones being sold everywhere. Best to get a good British made one and know its proper.

Once all done I'll report back. Again, thanks. It's the only peice I never associated with the sudden drop in OP. I wonder if it suddenly got clogged and contributed?
Max71

Apologies for the flurry of responses...

Should I use anti-seize on the threads of the replacement cooler? I have some regular anti-seize apart from the new copper based for the brakes.

Looking back I thought I reviewed every possible cause and enlisted the help of a retired British Car mechanic. Cooler never ever came up. Talked to some shops. No one thought of the obvious you all brought up.

FWIW, I did change the oil/filter 75 miles after putting in the new bearings.
Max71

Max
Because you havn't been stoking it into it and probably keeping the revs down enough to prevent the filter bypass valve from opening I reckon the filter would have done it's job
You should be ok
A bit of anti seize on the cooler hose nuts and on the backs of the tapers where the nut seats is a good idea specially if they are alloy nuts
Are the truck fellas going to have a go at your cooker first--if they flush it both directions like Chris recomended it should clear out ok and you can just run the garden hose through it to make sure you have plenty of flow afterwards-----it should be cleanable
willy
William Revit

Truckers won't touch it. They made it clear on their policy with such items. I could have a radiator place do something, but they won't do what Chris said and price would be close to getting a new one. I just don't have the tools or access. Otherwise, I would give it a go. Its a daily driver so it can't be down too long, although I'll leave it until this is resolved.

Will do on the anti seize.
Max71

Every reason to use anti-seize on most things, including the cooler. When you tighten the unions (or loosen them to reuse the cooler) use two spanners orientated such that the handles lie in the palm of your hand, at slightly different angles, and squeezing them together will tighten (or loosen) the joint. That virtually eliminates any possibility of twisting the port off the cooler. The attached is undoing, of course.


paulh4

Hi Paul. Thanks for the tip! I learned that one when the original got destroyed. ;-0

Everyone should do as you show.
Max71

Since all of you have been so kind with your knowledge I should show you the patient.

Here's the car right after paint. My friend who does Pebble Beach cars painted it and is standing beside the car.

He worked for Phil Hill for many years.


Max71

Looks good - thanks for the pic
William Revit

He did it as a favor/trade. His shop looks like a museum of cars with some being one-offs.

I did all the mechanicals except of course machining and engine assembly. Doh!
Max71

You'd have to be happy with that
Back to the cooler--
I doubt that it is blocked but it would have rubbish settled in the bottom
Maybe half fill it with kero and give it a good slosh around and see what comes out
It should be salvageable
Just keep spashing around in it till it comes clean
willy
William Revit

With the oil cooler I put a pressure pack can of degreaser through from both sides to fill it up then slosh it around. Next hook up to the garden hose and flush through for several minutes both ways then shake dry and flush with methylated spirits to pick up the last of the water. When dry then a blow through with an air duster. Trust my oil filter to pick up anything that remains.
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

I worried and ordered a proper British one. However, I know the suspect one in there is proper made. I'm going to try both your methods when I pull it and see what happens. I'm very curious.

"methylated spirits" are we talking Denatured alcohol?
Max71

Yes methanol added to ethanol so you don't drink it!
Mike Ellsmore

Depends where you live in the states ;)
Max71

Just got the oil radiator and slugged it in along, naturally, with an oil change. Took the car for a run at night and while OP wasn't all that much better it did seem steadier at speed although at then end (30 minutes) it started to drop about 5-10lbs. Idle went below 50lbs again. At speed was holding at about 68 and went to to below 60.

Drove the car harder than normal without going to readline as I really want to do again.

At least I know there's no grunge in the oil radiator. For those of you who said I could get it pressure cleanered - I think you're 100% right. I did a small test with cleaner fluid on the old one and it passed without issue into the other half.
Max71

Just keep driving it at the rpm you enjoy and report back when your engine fails. Good luck.
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Hot idle at 50psi is way more than enough, the WSM says 10 to 25, with 50 to 80 for running. Variation isn't an issue, the oil gauge always fluttered. A sintered plug was fitted to the gauge which reduced it but doesn't eliminate it, it's a factor of your pump, relief valve, bearings, oil type and temperature. Changing any one of them may stop it, or simply move it elsewhere in the rpm/temp range.

JFDI, and JFEI :o)
paulh4

"Just keep driving it at the rpm you enjoy and report back when your engine fails. Good luck.
Mike"

That's the fantasy, but budget realities kick in and the going cost is $3500-4000 if I blow it up.

Paul - thanks. I read that in the WSM, but I'm so used to solid 75Ibs. I'll blame the electronic gauge. I'll run it a little harded each time and see what happens. Pump new, relief valve new, bearing new except for 2 end mains, Don't know how well the cam bearings have held up.

Thanks all!
Max71

This thread was discussed between 12/07/2017 and 28/07/2017

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