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MG MGB Technical - Engine removal headache

Sorry for flooding the forum with questions but I've just come in feeling a bit beaten by the whole thing (78 BGT engine removal).

Here are my problems/questions (not including previous questions :) )...

1) Where is the best place for the engine crane to be (I've got fairly limited garage space)?

2) I'm pulling the engine with yacht rope. What is the best technique for achieving a good pull at the correct angle using rope with no L-Brackets?

3) Looking at the length of the transmission and attachments to it (wires etc) I'm a bit daunted by the prospect of pulling the engine/transmission attached. I really can't see how this could possibly be easier than removing the engine only...but this could be because it's late and hasn't been such a good day :)

Finally, I would really appreciate input on my other couple of threads regarding removing the cardboard under the drive wheel (thing with the timing notch on that you line up with the fingers) and removing the throttle cable as these are still adding to my frustration.

You are a great bunch of people here...I promise to pass on the great knowledge once I've mastered this thing!

Many regards,

James Elliott

best buy today...halogen heater for garage!
J Elliott

James,

Safety First and Fast.

Check the archives on engine removal. Doesn't sound like you're being very safe. Check out Engine Lifting Disaster Averted in the archives. It sums up my experience in engine lifting and a ton of responses.
Don't work tired and late. The crane slides between the two front tires. Where else would it go?

Good luck--Paul
Paul Hanley

OK, I'll give it a try:


We'll call this Part one -- just so you get a good idea of the task at hand. Post as you go along with progress or troubles.

1) The hook of the crane should be about half way of the valve cover;

2) Yacht rope is fine, as long as it has a breaking strenght of at least 800 lbs -- that gives about a 300 lb saftey margin.
I made several loops between the crank pulley and the sump; In the rear, two or so loops as far backas you can get it -- and it doesn't hurt to crawl under there and wrap a rope around the loops and securing them so they won't slip.

3) Engine /transmission as a unit. It will make sense as you go along.

3A) You will have to fashion a way to adjust the rope to get 45 degree angle of front uo, back down. Something like a carabiner, or a 18 inch loop of chain fastened with a good bolt and washers.

4) Uncertian about the cardboard -- there's none in mine. I'd say discard it for probably a PO rig.
The throttle cable is as easy as the choke: loosen the set screw holding the cable at the carbs -- unhook the end at the pedal and just pull it out.

So, you start with one end of the rope and thread it around the front a few times and the back a few times --- or, tie one end to the crane hook, then go down around the crank pulley, back uo to the hook, then bak down around the transmission --- at least twice for both, Then, with a seperate rope, tie a loop around those hanging loops to make a "nest" or a basket, soall ropes are tied and tight. This will keep the lifting ropes where they belong and not slipping off.

When you get the engine off its mounts, lift up gently and adjust the angle - front up -- back down -- a little bit at a time as appropriate to the unit clearing fire wall and any other stuff.
glg

Hi Paul,

Not sure what part of what I'm doing is unsafe...

I spent quite a while going through the archives to look through different people's thoughts and reactions to several suggestions (including yours - which is a very good post!).

There were a number of people who seemed to have used nylon rope of some kind. The rope I bought is really strong stuff that they use for rigging on yachts...I would have bought a chain but the shop couldn't tell me the breaking strain of any of them.

Most people have stated they are against using L-Brackets on the rockers cover as I was originally going to do (until I couldn't get hold of any and read the posts in the archive).


I put the engine crane in front of the car but couldn't work out how I was going to wheel the car back once the engine was out so I could put the engine on the floor because the crane legs reach out at an angle which means that the front wheels aren't far enough apart to clear them...how do other people get around this problem?


If I am being unsafe then please tell me why...


Many regards,

James
J Elliott

glg,

Thanks for the advice...the rope has as good a breaking strain as you stated and I have one L-Bracket which I managed to find at a friends house which might help with the tilting as you suggested.

Should the rope go in the gap between the front of the engine and the drive wheel or in front of the sump around level with the alternator bracket?

I might drill the screw out of the bulkhead and retap it at a later date...the cardboard looks like it's meant to be there and offers protection to the drive wheel...the only other way would be to cut it off (and ruin a perfectly good piece of good quality moulded cardboard :)

The choke cable has a small hex thing to loosen and remove it with but the throttle has a pin with a funny clip thing in the other side (could this be a butterfly clip? - I don't know)

Regards,

James :)
J Elliott

The cardboard between the engine and radiator is
the "mud shield". It's secured by four nyloc
nuts inside the engine bay, and one sheet metal
screw reached from underneath the car, directly
under the crankshaft pulley.

I use an engine leveler -- the hoist hook
is attached to the hook on the leveler, and
a crank on the leveler allows tilting the engine
back and forth. I've tried both 1000 pound
strength rope and chains. I prefer the chains
as they're somewhat thinner. One chain (two
loops) goes around the rear hook on the leveler
and between the backplate and sump. The front
chain loops behind the motor mounts and under
the sump.
Ronald

James. As Ronald mentions, the cardboard piece keeps mud from the engine. It also serves to channel the air flow throught the engine compartment when moving. It was introduced in 77 when the radiator was moved forwards. New ones are available from Moss in the US, so I assume that Moss UK also has them or can get them. Most of the cars I see today do not have them (cars originally equipped with them) as it makes it somewhat more difficult to change out the lower radiator hose. Not a big problem, but I have seen no real indication it was needed in the first place.

Cannot help you with the engine hoist. Mine fits under the engine compartment. I do, however, have to put some 2"x8"x12" wood blocks under the front tires to prevent the upper part of the lift's legs from hitting the lower part of the A arms. I use jack stands under the rear axle to create a nose down attitude with the car. This means that I have to use the tilt adjustmet less. In my opinion, pulling the engine without the tilt adjust is foolish. I pulled engines for my first two or three rebuilds without one, then decided to try it out. So not see how I lived without it.

Engine lifts. Do not know what you have and whether you own it or are renting it. About five years ago, I decided to get serious about this "hobby" and purchase good quality tools. This included the tilt mechanism and a take down (the legs remove and are stored in the base mechanism) engine hoist. Total cost was about $350 at that time which is less than the cost of a professional engine/tranny remove and replace. I have used it a number of times over the last five years as have many friends. The total package, broken down, takes up about a 3'x3' square about 6' high. Stores in the corner of the garage.

On my 68, the throttle cable is held between two 7/16" nuts on a threaded shaft with a hole drilled through the threaded section next to the fixed nut. The order is fixed nut, hole with cable, standard washer, split washer and nut. On the other side of the fixed nut is an unthreaded shaft which goes through the throttle linkage. Order is fixed nut, throttle linkage, standard washer and either a split pin or a hairpin clip. I use the hair pin clip as it is easier to remove and replace than a split pin (cotter pin). You should not have to remove the cable, just the split pin, then the connection from the throttle linkage. Reassemble the split pin and washer and tuck the detached cable up behind the heater and out of the way.

Ask if you have more questions or if anything is not clear. Les
Les Bengtson

James,

Sorry to be an alarmist. I had only a few minutes to type and sounded by your post that you had a bad day, it's late and in a hurry, combined with unfamiliarity with the car and a cramped workspace. It's never one factor that will get you hurt, but a combo that adds up. Just a little spooked still from my engine removal screw up and wanted to slow you down. Carry on!

Paul
Paul Hanley

Thanks all.

I've just had a good nights sleep and some breakfast and am refreshed with a new vigor.

Spoke to Bob who I borrowed the engine crane off and he informed me that I should be moving the crane backwith engine attached and not the car without the engine.

Not sure if I've got enough space in my garage to do this but will try and work it out.

He also said to take the front wheels off and put the front on axle stands so the crane legs clear the car.

I might be able to use Les' method and still roll the car back though :)

Paul...thanks for the concern and glad I wasn't doing anything crazy. I've slowly been taking everything off the engine for the last three days. There isn't much more to do before it comes out and I was looking for inspriation from you guys and the bits that were bothering me (which I think I've got).

Will let you know later in the day...

James
J Elliott

James --

Your progress is good news at the start of my day. On that cardboard - yes, there is a piece as mentioned above, (remeber it from my LE). I read the question as though it was something from like a cardboard box.

When doing mine, I had the front lifted as high as safley reasonable on jack stands. I found that the body, being in an upward angle, complimented the angle which the engine must come out.

Rope should go around the crankshaft pulley.

Just a thought: a new throttle cable can be bought or made for about $6.00. Without seeing the cable/carb connection, it's difficult to give further advice.

CARpe Diem.
glg

Sometimes I find that the more I think about a job the worse it gets and going and doing it is the only solution.

I have removed engines from my two Bs on several occasions and would NEVER take out the transmission with the engine. You can remove the engine with the car sitting on its wheels provided of course that you jack the car and remove the lower bellhousing bolts first. Place a trolley jack under the transmission to support, remove the top housing bolts and lift engine whilst at the same time raising jack to support transmission. Pull engine forward over crossmember and lift above slam panel. Either pull crane forward or if like me you have a fixed hoist push car and jack back. Lower engine to floor.

Replacement is just as easy but two points to watch, ensure that engine backplate and bellhousing remain parallel by adjustment of the jack and feed 1st motion shaft into clutch disc adjusting engine height and jack whilst maintaining parallelism. It's easy if you get someone to operate the jack. Push engine onto clutch spline turning crank pulley if necessary (make sure car is in gear) and push back fully. If pilot spigot does not enter bush adjust engine/jack whilst maintaining rearward pressure on engine until housings meet. It's very straightforward and really falls into place.

Fit the top four houising bolts before removong hoist?jack and the rfemainder at your leisure.

Good luck
Iain MacKintosh

Okay...just about to drill the cardboard screw out.

Managed to take the front bumper off and undo the throttle (easy to take clip off pin after all!) and choke cables and removed the fan.

Loads of room in there now!!

Everything is going to plan.

There seems to be mixed advice about removing the transmission and engine together or not.

Also there seems to be mixed advice with some people jacking front of the car up and others jacking the rear of the car up.

I'm going outside now to figure it all out (and drill stuff).

Later,

James
J Elliott

Iain,

I thought of doing it that way too but seemed like a lot of hands/fingers in the engine compartment if something were to happen to the lifting equipment. Plus, is there a man under the car adjusting the gearbox jack? When my engine came crashing down, my son was operating such jack. Thankfully, only his arm and not his skull was under the car. He was unhurt.

Safety Fast,

Paul
Paul Hanley

Hi Paul,
Nothing is going to happen too the lifting equipment, the engine is only 340lbs. With two loops of nylon rope under the rear, up around the lift and down under the front of the sump each rope is only taking 85lbs approx and that's nothing. You may be better to run the rope once round the hoist hook to prevent it from running. There is no man under the car as you view the whole thing from the side underbonnet view it's a doddle. It was my son who was in charge of the jack as well but he stood at the side and operated the handle whenm I directed. When the engine is actually being lifted out or replaced nobody is underneath anything. The car sits on all four wheels.

Incidentaaly I work from a fixed suspended hoist in a domestic garage and push the car and jack for removal and refitting.

Removal or fitting takes only 20 - 30 mins!!

Cheers
Iain MacKintosh

I've been hesitant to throw this in, but since Iain's broken the ice - I've removed the engine with and without the transmission, and to me it was no more difficult either way.

In removal, get the transmission jacked up to take all weight off the bolts and input shaft, and to slide the engine straight forward by pulling the crane back - instead of swinging it on the chains. This is so you don't put undue stress on the transmission input shaft.

In assembly, as long as you have the clutch plate carefully aligned to the spigot bush this takes out most of the aggravation. The parallelism of the engine to bell housing can be measured by the gap between the two at various points. As Ian says, make adjustments with a jack under the transmission and have a way to control the tilt on the motor - with a load leveler or some other device.

It's interesting to me that the majority prefer to pull the transmission, but there's also a majority who dread fixing the transmission mount and crossmember. How do they reconcile? I don't know. Fact of the matter is, I didn't have much trouble with the crossmember either.

Maybe it's because my car is orange, not green. And because I use new bolts instead of refurbishing the old ones. Beats me.
Matt Kulka

I have only removed my engine once (with gearbox) and had no problem adjusting a pair of ropes (10X safety factor) to get the correct angle - see picture. http://home.cogeco.ca/~bquartermaine/MGB/pic9.jpg

The hoist I borrowed fitted easily between the front wheels.

Barry
73B
B.J. Quartermaine

Chain hoists are great as their 'feet' don't get in the way and they virtually disappear when not used. I plan on using L brackets and the head studs to pull the engine along w/a leveler I've removed more kinds of engines and trannies using that combo than my old body wants to think about.
Mike MaGee

Matt,
Thanks for the support, glad you said the engine is no bother on its own. I wouldn't like o remove both units at once what with the extra weight and the whole thing is about six foot long, it needs to be steeply angled, the car jacked or a pit then there is the crossmember, gearlever, propshaft, clutch cyl and wiring, it's just not on.

I would hate to be given a heart and liver transplant when all I needed was a heart.

Cheers

Iain
Iain MacKintosh

I couldn't get hold of L brackets anywhere.

We didn't manage to pull the engine because we started doing it the engine only way and couldn't get the underside starter motor bolt out and it was starting to get really cold with the garage door open.

Is there a technique to removing this lower bolt?

Think I'll pull both transmission and engine together next attempt as I think it might be safer and quicker in the long run...if I do this will the starter motor still need to be removed and if so, how does it come out? Haynes says that moving the engine forwards will give it enough room to be removed but from what I can see, moving it forwards will mean it hits the steering column.

Help.

James
J Elliott

James. A long extension and a socket have always worked well for me. I come at both bolts from the underside of the car. Disconnect the battery before any work is done. Then, disconnect and label the two small wires going to the spade connectors, take off the main terminal nut and remove the wires going to the main terminal. Reinstall the nut on the terminal. Disconnect the pushrod going to the clutch fork. Install the split pin and clevis pin back into the clutch fork. Disconnect the slave cylinder and put something under it to keep from putting strain on the flex line. Remove lower starter bolt, then upper starter bolt. Try not to drop starter on body parts. Starter can be removed from the bottom of the car on US vehicles. Do not know about RHD models. One of the motor mounts normally needs to be removed to keep the flaired portion of the block from fouling on it. I remove the right hand one, but you may want to remove the left hand one. Should be easier to get to than the one having the steering rack going through. But, they are difficult to do at best with the engine still in the car. Be careful. This is not a difficult job once you have done it. The first time, however is "a very interesting learning experience". Les
Les Bengtson

Engine won't foul anything in RHD car, you only need to gradually lift it to allow sump to clear crossmember. I'm not sure about engine mounts but certainly in CB cars there is no need to remove them.
Les is right, starter bolts can be extracted with socket and long extension bar watch it as it's quite heavy. One of the bolts is nortmal UNF thread the other(the one which goes through the backplate into the bellhousing is UNC so don't lose it !! Just a chance it may have been crossthreaded by some previous owner and may be a bit tight. If you decide to take both units out together(bad decision!!) you can leave the starter on and take it off on the garage floor.

You will win tonight!!!

Iain
Iain MacKintosh

Which two units are you talking about Iain, the starter and the soleniod?

James
J Elliott

No No The engine and gearbox. My starter motors are not six feet long !!!

You'll be fine, best of luck.

Iain
Iain MacKintosh

I've been reading this with interest. Personally I wouldn't remove the gearbox if I didn't have to. I use a good quality rope wrapped round between the crankshaft pulley and the sump (can't slip out of there) and then wrapped around behind the sump (again there is a natural place there between the back plate and the sump so the rope can't slip. I must say I bought a leveller from Machine Mart and it is excellent. Allows dead easy adjustment of the angle of the engine once it is suspended.

Undo all the bolts underneath before you begin so you don't need to be under the car once the weight is on the crane. As to the L brackets, the problem is not with the brackets, its with the rocker cover bolts to which they are fixed. IMO they aren't up to the job of holding 300+ lbs of engine.

You have to pull the engine quite a long way forward to clear the gearbox input shaft, so make sure you have everything cleared out of the way. It's not a difficult job, but does involve some amount of heaving and grunting. Good luck.

Mike
Mike Howlett

Thanks both.

Think I will try engine only but will probably wait until Saturday now because by the time I finish work it's pitch black and v.cold outside and I'll need the garage door open. Not fun.

Will try and get hold of a leveller in time for the weekend. Sounds like it would make life a lot easier.

Will see how I feel after work tonight...might just try to get the starter out.

Does anyone else find a flexible plastic cover over both the starter and solenoid? Took me ages to even get that off and out the other day!

James
J Elliott

James,
Glad you are progressing and sorry to see you got some flack in another thread. At your age it's encouracement you need and that's what this bulletin board is all about.

Mike is spot on and I agree 100%. Do not use L brackets.I too wouldn't trust the rocker studs as if they fracture they would break like a carrot, no warning. Sling the rope as we described and nothing can break. I have never ever used a leveller and just adjust the sling hook as the strain comes on the rope to ensure an even pull but then I'm over 60!! so if you go the leveller route then fine by me.

Re the plastic shield this was fitted from the 73 year cars so will obviously have to be removed with the starter motor whose bolts MUST be removed before you lift the engine. Remember one of these goes right thru to the bellhousing.

Just one thought I assume that you have removed the distributor as it gives you a lot more working space !!

Cheers

Iain
Iain MacKintosh

J
Getting an MG engine/gearbox out is no picnic thats for sure.
Heres what I did, it might be of use-

With the front wheels well chocked etc, Jacked up the back of the car as high as I safely could and placed two tall axil stands under , so it was all good and solid. You need to do this because you need more vertical room to clear the transission tunnel when you are lifting the motor over the slam pannel than is afforded by normal ground clearance. By jacking up the back of the car you are effectivly lifting the top of the transmission tunnel, and lowering the front of the car.You also need to crawl in under there anyway to undo driveshaft bolts etc..

I think only taking out the motor, then later getting it back in, lineing up clutch, gearbox etc might be a bit of a bastard. Mind you I needed to get the whole lot out anyway.

Removed the grill (as well as radiator etc) so I could get the crane far enough back.
The two "extending" wheels on my crane only just fit between the car wheels, I had to pump up the car tires a little and push them (crane wheels) togeather a little to squeeze through. A tight squeek literaly.

Removed the bonnet strut and opened the bonnet all the way and tied it up. (I had to remove one windcreen wiper).
I set up two loops of strong rope, one around the rear of the sump/bellhousing and the other round the front/bottom of the motor attached so it couldn't come lose/slip. This located the centre of the lift above the rearmost rocker cover nut. I then doubled up on the rope , just in case.
I placed a trolley jack under the rear of the gearbox.

Then pretty much as every one says, up a little, down a little etc.. If you're finding it hard going do not think that you are alone in this.
Easy stages etc..
It took me about ten times as long as I thought it would. A couple of largish whiskies after it was all over were definitly in order.
Peter

Any progress over the weekend James?
I D Cameron

Does silence mean he hasn't recovered yet !!
Iain MacKintosh

Come on James, where are you? I will probably be removing an engine for the first time in the next few months, and I don't want to hear that you have given up and sold the car!!

Also didn't want this thread to disappear into the archives as it keeps all the info in one place!

Iain
I D Cameron

PS
Put an old bit of carpet or somthing over the slam pannel to protect it from scrapes
Also don't forget to remove the gear lever before undoing the rear crossmember bolts like I did (Doh!).
Peter

It's a pity James hasn't come back to us all as we put a lot of time into this. Helping others is what this is all about but we do like feedback otherwise there really is no point.
Iain MacKintosh

Perhaps he is pinned to the garage floor by 150 kilos of B?? 8-(
Chris at Octarine Services

maybe he drank the largish whiskies first
Peter

or given up on all technology and gone back to the sea.
Leland Bradley

Just one word : I read a lot of « archive » before on this BBS and finally I take the option « just the engine » out (easy) and in.
I just finish putting the engine in my B ; I do the job alone but with two tilts systems : a lateral (classic) and a longitudinal one (two bolts-eyes).
Theses two tilts allow me to put the the engine in line and parralel to the gear box.
With this method, It took me a big hour to take the engine from the floor and fix the last front bolt with the motor in the car.

Thanks to all the writters on this forum … and in french : Bonnes Fêtes et Meilleurs Vœux.

Arthur.


Arthur

Sorry for my silence! (was waiting till it was done and dusted)

Just to let you know the engine is still in :( and I haven't sold the car :)

The truth is it's been a little cold here up to the last week and loads of friends of mine have come back for the Christmas season so I've been spending some time not cold and covered in grease (although that is fun also).

Had a quick go yesterday but ran out of time as had an appointment to keep.

I want to take the engine out on its own because it looks like an easier option. Just take my time and make sure I don't put any undue strain on anything. Plus I get a bit peeved with Haynes because it doesn't show things like where the speedo cable actually is on the gearbox.

I got the starter motor out. Managed to manouver and drop it down (not literally) between the engine and the steering column.

One more question if I may...I'm leaving the carbs and exhaust manifold on and have undone the nuts underneath where the exhaust connects to the manifold (a much better design than the leaky old thing on my midget), but can't budge the exhaust at all. Could be the gasket's baked on but I put a fair bit of downwards pressure on the exhaust pipe and nothing.

Anyone else had a problem seperating them?

James
J Elliott

http://hem.passagen.se/larsragnar/
Page 4
Ingemar

Nice to hear from you, Ingemar.

Great pictures!

Will study this morning (first day back at work after Christmas :( )

James
J Elliott

Ingemar,

I can't quite see how the load leveler is attached to the engine from your pictures.

What a huge garage you have!

Also, just out of curiousity, what pneumatics have you got powering your crane arm?

James
J Elliott

Open swedish web-page

www.bostream.nu/lindblad/

page 7 and start steam-machin.


Ingemar

Open swedish web-page

http://www.bostream.nu/lindblad/

page 7 and start steam-machin.


Ingemar

Hey I was right, he did have the whisky first
Peter

This thread was discussed between 09/12/2003 and 30/12/2003

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