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MG MGB Technical - Antifreeze

I have just replaced the antifreeze and was sold red stuff by local shop having been assured it was suitable. However I read in MGCC mag that red can be harmful to gaskets and hoses. Does anyone have any views on this?
Rod Merrall

Rod
Depends on what the 'red stuff' you were sold is
You can't rely on the colour anymore ,now they sell green red stuff, orange stuff and others
Originalally red stuff (OAT)was intended for alloy engines/radiators and with long term use in brass radiators/heater cores there is a risk of it eating the solder---it did tend to weep colour out through the hoses and can be corrosive in some aplications
Is it a type A coolant or a Type B or a hybrid mix
It should be on the label with a description of it's uses
Safest bet is to go for a Type A Hybrid (green) long life coolant, you can get them for up to 6-8 years lifespan now.

What Brand/part number have you been sold-----

willy
William Revit

Not come across Type A or Type B designations in the UK (but do on Oz web sites), usually they are labelled OAT for modern engines and IAT for classics.

Another typical labelling cockup, after decades of calling it glycol-based for out engines when someone came up with Organic Acid Technology someone else jumped on the bandwagon wanting to appear dahn wiv da kids and renamed the older stuff Inorganic Acid Technology, and if you can't remember your Os from your Is you have to read the labels very carefully indeed. At least A is earlier than B in the alphabet i.e. for engines built 'earlier'.

Same with brake fluid - DOT3 and DOT4 being compatible with each other and DOT5 incompatible. Then when an improved version of DOT4 came out they called it DOT5.1 instead of DOT6. At least in that case manufacturers chose to call it Super DOT4.
paulh4

As Willy said, what did it say on the bottle? Was it 4Life? That's red and is fine in old engines. But if it's an OAT type you are probably best getting rid of it.
Mike Howlett

The spec is OAT and says it is suitable for all metals and alloys!
Rod Merrall

Yeah but that comes from people that don't know anything about classics!
paulh4

Rod-
Of course, they would say that, wouldn't they? Its similar to the current situation wherein some manufacturers are now offering EP90 GL-5 hypoid gear oils that have had anti-wear buffers introduced into their formulas that supposedly render them safe for use with yellow metals, i.e., copper-based metals, the anti-wear package is not compatible with baulk rings/synchronizer rings in terms of either action or wear. Caveat Emptor!

Never mix OAT with glycol-based coolant. The engine must be thoroughly flushed before it can be introduced into the cooling system. Be warned that Organic Acid Technology antifreeze, when it is mixed with ethylene glycol, results in the formation of sludge. Some newer OAT products are said to be compatible with all OAT and glycol types and are either green or yellow. In addition, HOAT (Hybrid OAT), both are claimed to have a service life of either five years or 150,000km. However, these products do seem to cause problems inside of older coolant systems, over and above its ability to find the smallest crevice and leak. OAT antifreezes have been accused of destroying seals and gaskets and causing a great deal of damage inside of older engines. For this reason, the manufacturers of OAT antifreeze products do not recommend their use in historic and classic vehicles.
Stephen Strange

I have drained the OAT fluid and flushed the engine and rad. Halfords have sold me silicate antifreeze which they tell me is suitable. Is it? I haven't used it yet pending your advice. Never knew antifreeze was so complicated!


Rod
Rod Merrall

Rod-
The silicates are an anti-corrosion additive.

Traditional ethylene glycol antifreeze is a toxic but highly effective antifreeze that contains Silicates as an inhibitor in order to assist in preventing corrosion inside of an engine that employs mixed metals in its construction. It should be noted that Silicates can leach out of the coolant solution and form a gel-like thermal-insulating coating on the interior surfaces of the coolant system. In order to avoid an accumulation of such a coating, manufacturers recommend that the coolant system should be thoroughly flushed whenever the coolant in the system is replaced. Be aware that currently there are also both low and non-Silicate ethylene glycol formulations available which may not be suitable for all engines. Note that these antifreezes are usually fluorescent green in color.

Propylene glycol antifreeze is another
well-known and less-toxic antifreeze formulation and usually contains protective Silicates. Polypropylene glycol needs to be either periodically changed or subjected to regular monitoring of freeze protection, pH, specific gravity, inhibitor level, color, and biological contamination, as once bacterial slime starts to grow within it, the corrosion rate increases. Another disadvantage of this product is that if it is overheated, it will then become very corrosive very quickly. Thus, the need for troublesome regular monitoring of its pH level. Note that these antifreezes are usually red in color.

Both of the above products utilize Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) with iron and steel corrosion prevention provided by means of nitrites and aluminum corrosion protection by means of silicates, phosphates, and molybdates providing high lead solder protection, with borates helping to control acidity. All glycols oxidize to produce acids when they are in the presence of air. These acids can reduce pH and cause corrosion. When the system pH decreases to below a rating of 7, rust will develop on any ferrous metal, and nonferrous metals, such as aluminum alloy, will also start to corrode.
Stephen Strange

What a nightmare! I wasnt aware of all that.

I use Bluecol!

Colin
Colin Parkinson

Rod
What brand and type of coolant is it----can look it up on the Halfords site and advise if it's ok if you like---

Ideally, if I were selecting I'd be going for a Type A(Glycol)(green) Longlife coolant with HAT (Hybrid additive technoligy)
The silica coolant additive is ok but you do have to change it regularly(2 years max) whereas the HAT additive eliminates or reduces the need for silica and can be run for at least 5 years
Also, premixed is best depending on your water supply , We've got truckloads of lime in our water here so premix is a must.

This is my current favourite--Don't know if you can get it there though--There's a bit of a writeup down the bottom, I've been running this in the Elan which used to get quite warm in traffic but with this it'll sit there idling all day with no sign of getting hot and cranky

https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/nulon-nulon-anti-freeze-anti-boil--green-premix-coolant---6-litre/384351.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwuMuRBhCJARIsAHXdnqMqIrfMv0sx2w3x7C88kLRvwvM_ow_H6EbzWFIAskupK_cRhXIZlqEaAh_WEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
William Revit

Ah, HAT! Along with HOAT, P-HOAT and Si-HOAT, using orange, yellow, turquoise, pink, blue and purple which are all derivatives of OAT and not suitable. HAT is said to contain organic additives and so I would have thought that was unsuitable as well.

Then there is "NAP-Free Hybrid" which doesn't say whether it is OAT, IAT or glycol-based but lists a dozen manufactures specifications so 'modern'.

And HAL (not HAT) silicate ready-mixed, the HAL in this case probably being an abbreviation of HALfords.

The biggest laugh is that the concentrate is cheaper than the ready-mixed!

What a nightmare? You said it!

Halfords silicate is based on IAT and so is suitable. If you have flushed it with water don't use ready-mixed, and even if it has only been drained as usually there is a significant amount of the old coolant left. Put the required amount of concentrate in first based on the proportion you want to achieve in a dry engine, then top-up with water. Cooling system with heater is said to be 10 pints in the WSM, so 2.5 pints of concentrate, then as much water as is needed should give a minimum of 25%, and so-on. Any topping-up from there do with a dilute mix.
paulh4

"The biggest laugh is that the concentrate is cheaper than the ready-mixed!" - water is heavy and bulky to package, store, transport, then store and transport again to then take up shops storage and sales area with bulk and weight.

I would imagine now that most people aren't interested in fafing around getting the water and then doing the measuring and mixing with the antifreeze and prefer the premixed coolant so sales of premixed might be easier and more completive(?).

As Willy knows VW have been flip-floping with what coolant that command to be used in their products and changing their minds more than once. They use G numbers and only recently I have seen a case of the same VW model and engine having different recommendations of which G-number coolant to use. See chart below and get your minds around this - model made in 1999 requires G12 but model made in 2000 has G11. And newer models also have changes.

I think, with some exceptions perhaps, and not mixing different types or even suppliers some of it might be down to beliefs as often happens.



Nigel Atkins

If Rod's new coolant has silica in it then it's almost certain to be a type A which will be fine

A coolant with HAT additives meaning a lower amount of silica will have a longer life but if it's changed every 2 years it'll be fine

notice Nigel, I didn't mention VW, I'm on G12plusplus-it's pink like me---washed the golf yesterday ,it came up well, might do it again next year---lol
William Revit

After reading all this I am more confused about what antifreeze should be in my B. I thought antifreeze was antifreeze. Some now I see should be changed after two years. I have been driving over 60 years and never changed antifreeze other than after coolant loss for one reason or another.
I topped up the rad with som red coolant last year that I now assume is the wrong one, The last time the coolant was filled was about
five years ago after I rebuilt the engine so was going to drain and refill so do I refill with something like Bluecol and rainwater.
Why does some antifreeze only have a two year life, does it no longer give protection against freezing or is this a con I wonder.
Trevor Harvey

The recommendation to replace glycol-based isn't in the WSM as far as I can see (that only says check/top-up for all service intervals) but the recommendation has been around for decades.

It depends on how much you put in when you topped up, but I doubt it has caused a problem. Just drain it (heater valve open) and put the required amount of concentrate in as indicated above, then clean water, and you should be fine. If you drain it quite warm then it should flush out sediment as well.

If you use an antifreeze tester you will see that it changes over time in how many balls will float (in the cheap ones) which is an indication of resistance to freezing. Resistance to corrosion probably also reduces over time. It's really only an issue in cars kept outside or used in very cold weather, and by 'very cold' I mean weather we don't very often get in the UK. Even less of an issue in most MGBs these days being 'hobby' cars.

"water is heavy"

It's the implication that water is more expensive than neat coolant that I find amusing, unless you are saying that antifreeze is one fifth the weight of water. Also people choosing to spend five times more on ready-mixed than 'faffing around getting the water'? It comes out of taps in my house.
paulh4

Paul-
You said "The biggest laugh is that the concentrate is cheaper than the ready-mixed!". I personally visited the production facility of a nationally well-known brand where I found that the ethylene glycol antifreeze in their pre-mixed product was mixed on-site with, believe it or not, unfiltered mineral-rich water that was pumped directly from an underground well that was on the property. That stuff will coat the interior of a coolant system with mineral scale. When I asked why they didn't use distilled water, they said that it would be too expensive! Needless to say, I mix my own, using the concentrate and distilled water that I can buy from the laundry department of any nearby supermarket.

By the way, the commercially-available pre-mixed antifreeze is usually mixed to a 50/50 ratio, giving a Coolant Efficiency of only 80% as compared to pure water.

Note that unit for unit, ethylene glycol, which is the most-common antifreeze, absorbs and carries 37% less heat than distilled water can. As a coolant medium, water has an assigned cooling value of 1.0, while pure ethylene glycol antifreeze has a cooling value of 0.6. Thus, ethylene glycol antifreeze is only 60% as efficient at heat transference as water is. A mixture of antifreeze and water is therefore not as efficient at heat transference as pure water is.

The formula for determining Coolant Efficiency is:

Coolant Efficiency = [(Percentage of Water X 1.0) + (Percentage of Antifreeze X 0.6)]

I prefer a mixture of 75% distilled water and 25% ethylene glycol antifreeze that results in 90% Coolant Efficiency. [(75% X 1.0 = 75%) + (25% X 0.6 = 15%)] = 90% Coolant Efficiency. That is a 12.5% improvement over the commonly-available pre-mixed 50% / 50% coolant solution, which would have a reduced Coolant Efficiency of only 80%. This would have a somewhat similar effect as adding yet another row to the cooling matrix of the radiator, therefore I suggest experimenting with that simple approach prior to considering spending money on recoring or replacing a radiator.
Stephen Strange

Willy,
I cleaned the midget for the first time this year, and it lives outside 365/6, cleaned the hood the day before for it to get covered in Sahara sand and need cleaning again next day, so twice this year for the hood.

Only cleaned it because it was going to the show, to be driven.

You pink 12++ is that 12evo or is 12evo missing from that chart where VAG changed their minds about using G13, after 2008?

Nigel Atkins

It's G12++ Nigel, I bought up a stockpile when I got the car. -With my record of hitting roo's etc I thought it a good investment, I'm down to 2 bottles 1 litre of concentrate and 1 litre of premix so better sell the car soon--lol
The G12evo is an interesting one,(why not G14) it mixes with all previous vw coolants including G11(green)so must be a hybrid (HAT) coolant I guess- You probably won't believe this but I spent most of today working on my own MG thing, couldn't believe i got away with it uninterupted for most of the day till a mate turned up wanting me to go get his ME5 racer going, but put him off till Monday so 'might' get another mg day tomorrow--maybe--maybe
cheers
willy
William Revit

Willy,
thanks, but just confirming as I've already been a slow with something today. Are you saying -
. G12eveo is G12++
. VW did change their minds and instead of continuing to use G13 they reverted back to the earlier G12evo (G12++)
. (or) G12evo is after G13 and is not G12++ (and should sensibly have been called G14)?

My wife's 2015 has to use G13 but I was told this has now changed to using G12evo - I didn't question this because VW had already said some DSG gearboxes were now to use "mineral" oil instead of the "synthetic" oil that was previously used, as some might say my way they didn't seem to know their ar*e from their elbow.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
G12++ and G12evo are different
G12++ -- 'won't' mix with the early G11(green)
G12evo is the latest and greatest and will mix with all previous vw coolants---as we say ,it should have been named G14 just to continue the evolution order-----
-bit like brake fluid numbering eh.--lol

As far as the DSG oil goes, that's a bit of a strange one as well, the mineral oil option came in in about 2011 I think with the 7 speed box but only for low torque engines everything else continued on with synthetic---We used Multi vehicle DSG/DCT synthetic in everything at the joint where I worked and VW paid up for it so they must have been happy--their bean counters were right onto anything that wasn't right--

I use Nulon multi vehicle in mine, not cheap though at about $100 for a refil --- it comes in a plastic bag and easy to get in the hole
Do you get oils in plastic bags there, it's the best thing ever for getting in tight places and uphill into gearboxes etc

There's a video down the bottom of this with happy Chris doing one

https://ezysqueeze.com.au/?gclid=CjwKCAjw_tWRBhAwEiwALxFPoU6RYvvv5CLax6KnznrLKDzCaGOR1oz8gBhRVok8RycZ20_Og9cvABoCQgEQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
William Revit

Willy,
thanks. But that now makes that colour chart I put up wrong as it has G12++ is miscible with G11 (and doesn't show G12evo (not G13 or G14 in the schizophrenia VAG colour and numbering systems).

VAG engineers do seem to need lots of photos of different parts of the body to help them out.

My understanding was that some gearboxes had troubles, but then the early Audi TTs had many troubles.

Unfortunately we don't get those squeeze bags though they seem a great idea, I have seen them before, possibly from you, the UK is a very traditional country I'm surprised they're allowed to sell them over here in 1 litre (hard to use) plastic bottles, especially now, should be pint bottles.

You'd have been proud on me today, without breaking anything, wielding a 2-foot long 17/19mm ring spanner (we also like to mix measuring systems, yes I know that isn't an example of such before anyone writes in). All to get a fill/level plug out of a BGT V8 axle that had been overfilled (by a UK professional mechanic obviously).
Nigel Atkins

Morning Nigel- looks like we've taken over this thread ok then
Very proud of you working on a B V8 , is he a factory car or a conversion---
Going over to get my mate's racer going this arvo, should be interesting with it's lucas injection, the thing is one angry car and hasn't fired up for a while--could end up a big project but we'll see--
William Revit

Genuine original factory V8 BGT not long back from a many multi-thousands of pounds refresh type restoration, though it wasn't a bad car before that, all done by a specialist garage. With the use of a torch it turned out what I thought was the underseal and possibly muck was actually the plug had been sealed to the back plate. All black on black with dark brown oil covering. Discovered when I used a small wire brush to clean round the plug whilst it was in the housing and the brush was clogged up, so a blade was sought instead.

A very simple job that even I can do reasonably quickly made unnecessarily longer by the intervention of a professional. Whether the gasket was leaking was difficult to tell as there was so much oil.

Nigel Atkins

Something that caught my attention--the 17/19mm ring spanner---Why do some sets go 10/11-12/13-14/15-16/17-18/19 when others go 10/11-12/13-14/16-17/19 with no 15 or 18
Boltheads on Japanese cars seem to go 10-12-14-17-19 yet US cars seem to go 11-13-15-17-18
All weird
Had a big day yesterday and got Dave's racer to make all the right noises eventually, it's amazing how much difference a fully charged battery and a trip out to the airport using airport transfers sevenoaks for some fresh fuel can make, -only a few minor jobs now, then look out
cheers



William Revit

That looks nice Willy. Repco??
Colin Parkinson

Willy,
if only more knew the value of a fully charged battery.

The spanners must be something to do with make and/or region and/or age/period. I've only one set of metric (ratchet) double-ended ring spanners and they fall into neither of your size sets. I've now only one shallow offset standard double-ended ring spanner and that's 11/13mm.

I have a set of imperial double open-ended spanners that have the intermediate sizes duplicated so you have two spanners in the set with the same size jaws with I've often found very handy. I wish I'd bought second sets of the ratchet ring spanners as two really speed up some awkward to get at nuts and long bolts.

Back to the wonder of VAG coolant coding, saw the following posted but it excludes 12+ (whatever that is). -
. Glysantin BASF make the coolant for VW Group, G65 is to VW spec TL 774 – L which is G12evo
. Glysantin BASF make the coolant for VW Group, GG40 is to VW spec TL 774 – J which is G13
. Glysantin BASF make the coolant for VW Group, G40 is to VW spec TL 774 – G which is G12++
. Glysantin BASF make the coolant for VW Group, G30 is to VW spec TL 774 – D/F which is G12

When you put "G12evo is the latest and greatest and will mix with all previous vw coolants" do you excluded G11 (blue green on that chart)?

Nigel Atkins

Not 100% sure Nigel but I was told that the G12evo is safe to mix with all previous vw coolants including the early green--The danger one is mixing the green with the early G12 red but then the G12 evo supposedly mixes ok with both of these as well as all the later ones------

Colin--he's a Chev, iron block, big bore(4") short stroke 5litre, alloy heads, lucas mechanical injection,basically the same as an old F5000 engine but modern heads and camshaft etc, the thing'd blow the skin off a good rice pudding from 100metres, I've got a little vid. on the phone but am having trouble getting it to copy over----so far, but it's coming

willy
William Revit

Willy so not a F5000. Hill climb car?

A mate of mine in NZ has recently bought the Chevron B32, ex hill climb car, now in F5000 spec.

He is due to race it I think this weekend, never having driven a single seater!!

Colin
Colin Parkinson

Colin--It's a brute sporty built by Elfin here--it's the only one ever--Elfin ME5
There's truckloads of pics of it here from when it was for sale here a while ago-just click on the dots under the pic-----

https://richmonds.com.au/portfolio/1969-elfin-me5-sports-racing-car/

and- Monday's startup--I had to nick this off Dave's page, I can't get my phone to copy mine over for some reason--

https://www.facebook.com/100048344824690/videos/663449198414806/
William Revit

Thanks Willy. We're told to be cautious even about mixing different makes of the same sort of coolant in case the additives don't like each other but I think often it's a case of sloppy changes and procedures and beliefs and of course often luck.

That 5-litre sounded reasonably crisp but a bit muted, perhaps it was the surroundings and recording.

The American V8 engines never sound as good as our own humble Rover (Buick) V8s, particularly when in a TVR with it's exhaust systems, IIRC I was told that was because of the firing order, is that so do you know?
Nigel Atkins

Hmm, probably the video, it's as sharp as a tack in the flesh, but yeah fairly quiet to meet the regs.
Small block Chevs and Rover v8's run the same firing order. I'll stick my neck out and say it all depends on the exhaust system as to how they sound.
we used to run 180 degree headers on our old chev racer years ago and it sounded just like a screamer flat plane crank engine, which it wasn't--

Found this old vid of the Elfin in action, must be a mixture as the car is shown in two different paint schemes--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLUleewi4P8
William Revit

Yes that sounds a bit better, those blokes that must be lost as they keep going round in circles. I think it was hearing modern, and not so modern, Ford heavy V8s at close quarters, along with other V8s, this weekend that has st my ears.

A standard exhaust pre-cat 1990s TVR RV8 must be one of, if not the, best sounding road cars there's ever been, not stupidly loud or too deep but just the right notes and rhythm. I suspect mainly to do with the exhaust system and huge front gather boxes, makes you proud to be British (and there's not much that can do that really).

Just remembered TVR have the cylinder banks HT wired opposite to usual, as I discovered a few decades back when I removed the HT lead set without recording thinking I knew, now I ever have the Midget leads numbered.
Nigel Atkins

Willy, nice one! Is it still eligible for historics with modern bits on it?

Awesome bit of kit!

Colin
Colin Parkinson

Yep, 100% legal--but not as a 1969 car, now,it's as raced in 1980 by Johnny Walker spec.-Luckily when it was built back in 1969 it got a full house Bartz Chev with alloy heads,steel crank,roller cam etc and was further developed for Neil Allen(first owner) by Peter Molloy at the time--so carefully selected replacement parts can come within the rules--The car has quite a racing history including competing at Spa, Elkhart Lake, Nurburgring, Daytona, Oschersleben, Melbourne GP circuit, Phillip Island, Dijon, Zolder, Hockenheimring, Monza and Zandvoort.-- Haam Lagay had developed it over time during his ownership/racing but now it's back to 1980 spec
It's 700Kg ,so lighter than a Midget and running around 650HP in it's current setup -
Not the most powerfull car about but the engine is a spinner so it will be interesting how Dave goes with it--
Your friend's Chevron B32 looks the business as well, I love hillclimbing, it's quite an art in itself, he'll need to be a bit carefull with that being his first single seater as well, what a way to get into one---very jealous
A friend of my wife did himself in at Goodwood hillclimb years ago in the one and only Lotus 4WD F1 car,it was very sad ,he was the keenest Lotus guy you'd ever meet--gone- which has got me wondering where that car got to, probably stashed away in a shed somewhere---
willy
William Revit

I've been sitting here thinking, why did i put that bit about Double D crashing at Goodwood, like where did that come from.--It must have been in the back of my mind---When he came to Aust to live he ended up navigating for rally star Colin Bond in an L34 Torana very successfully--Now Dave, the guy with this Elfin bought the rally Torana off Colin Bond and rallied it for years----my head must have just linked it all together without letting me know-
bit weird that
willy
William Revit

Willy the brain plays funny tricks on you as we get older!!!

I have had a word with a mate of mine who works on historic F1 cars. He has no idea where it went, but Clive Chapman will know.

Colin
Colin Parkinson

This thread was discussed between 15/03/2022 and 24/03/2022

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