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MG MGA - Startup

At long last I'm coming to the crunch.
Took out the plugs and pulled the starter, hoping to see oil pressure. No luck, after about 45 sec cranking. I had pre-filled the filter to the brim and the sump is at full of 15W/40.
New oil pump. Using the old safety gauge that came with the car.
Any suggestions?
Art Pearse

Art,
if you have an oil cooler, disconnect at the cooler and add oil to the hose that runs into the engine - reconnect to the cooler and turn the engine over - preferably without plugs.
Bayard
Bayard DeNoie

Good idea Bayard, but no oil cooler!
Art Pearse

Hi Art,
A little more complicated because of the tight quarters, but you might try a hose and funnel to feed oil into the block at the back where the oil feeds back in.
Bayard
Bayard DeNoie

Bleed the guage?
John DeWolf

Art, are you getting oil up at the rockers?
George G.

Did you also prime the pump? I seem to remember taking off the external pipe and pouring oil down the hole to prime it. On an unprimed pump I would have thought it might take at least 45 secs to get oil through the system and raise pressure.

Steve
Steve Gyles

This happened to me and if I remember correctly I removed at the block the flexible oil hose that leads to the gauge and poured 1/2 to one pint of oil into the block. Whether it was this that did the trick or the continuous cranking I'm not sure. I reckon total cranking time for me was several minutes but then I didn't prime the pump...............Mike
m.j. moore

No, haven't primed the pump. I did use a bit of lithium grease in the pump.
OK, so I should prime it. Should I use the pressure gauge take-off or the big pipe that feeds the oil filter?
Art Pearse

Art

I can only tell you what I did. I removed the solid pipe and poured it down the hole. I don't know who told me to do this when I rebuilt the engine, but it worked fine with the pressure coming up quite quickly.

Steve

Steve Gyles

Art,
I had a similar problem with a reconditioned 18V engine last month - I had pre-filled the spin-on K&N oil filter, pre-filled the oil cooler and hoses (small funnel), poured oil down the gallery at the back of the engine where the oil cooler pipe attaches (solid steel pipe on a standard A) - still no oil pressure when turning the engine over with spark plugs removed (10 sec try, another 10 sec try and a 20 sec try).
In desperation I then removed the relief valve and used an oil syringe (500 cc) fitted with a small plastic tube to force oil in through the relief valve seat hole (needs three hands to keep the tube pressed hard against the seat and operated the syringe) - turned engine backwards to suck some oil into the pump (new oil pump also) - then put a bit more oil in though the relief valve hole - refitted the relief valve (with difficulty from underneath). Two more 5 sec tries with the plugs removed and voila, I had 60 psi oil pressure. Put the plugs in and ran for 20 mins at 2000 rpm - then ran in for 200 kms with plenty of speed variation up to 4000 rpm.
Running like a bird now! (I used Clevite bearing guard and Comp Cam cam lube for engine assembly).
Maybe if I had just keep trying initially I would have got oil pressure but just to be sure I went the extra step!
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

PS The oil gauge pip connects to the oil gallery feeding the the bearings (after the filter) - it is separated from the gallery that the solid steel pipe connect to by a special restrictor - so you should prime down this hole and not where the oil pressure gauge connects.

As usual Barney's site explains all this in detail
http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/of101.htm
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

A new oil pump should be self-priming even if it was dry inside. All it takes is a touch of oil or grease to seal it completely. Before you panic, expect about 45 seconds cranking time (with plugs out) before you see oil pressure on the gauge. If you pre-fill the oil filter and external lines it may be a little quicker.
Barney Gaylord

A small issue of physics occurred to me last night that could add slightly to the delay in getting oil pressure. I may be wrong, but this is my thought process: If you fill and fit the oil filter before filling the sump you end up with a column of trapped air between the oil strainer tube and the oil filter. i.e. the oil level in the strainer tube will be below the level of the sump oil. Small point I know but likely to add a small period of time to oil reaching the filter and onwards. Releasing the external pipe to prime the pump, although not necessary as Barney suggests, does however, balance out (raise) the oil level in the oil strainer suction pipe. Obviously, if you fill the sump first, then fill and fit the filter you circumvent this issue.

Steve
Steve Gyles

On the occasions I have revived dormant engines after refilling empty sump and replacing the oil filter, I have removed the spark plugs and run it on the starter.
On each occasion this had required a couple of minutes' running (20 seconds at a time, with a 10 second pause to allow battery and starter to recover) for the oil pressure to recover. i.e. longer than feels comfortable. The engines in each case have been long-term reliable.
I have also visited engine assembly lines where all newly manufactured engines are driven by an electric motor for 5 or 10 minutes without spark plugs in order to run them in.
Assumes that the journals / bearings are well oiled at assembly.
David
D Brown

Filled the oil pressure gauge line with a squirt can.
Now I need to find a 1-1/8" crowsfoot wrench for the big pipe! This was tightened with the engine out and lots of room!
Art Pearse

A word of caution here. The starter motor is designed to have about 10% duty cycle. You can crank on it for one minute straight without fear of overheating it. after which it needs to rest for 9 minutes for cool down. Or you can crank on it for 30 seconds out of every 5 minute period, all day long if you like. If you crank on it for 3 minutes straight it is almost guaranteed to burn out, which commonly starts by melting solder out of the commutator.
Barney Gaylord

Thanks Barney.
Which way is the flow in the pipe between the rear of the block and the filter housing?
Got the pipe off with a home made crowfoot, filled the holes with oil both ends.
Now I have to back the car in gear to suck the oil into the pump.
Art Pearse

Oil flow normally goes form rear corner of block to the oil filter.

If you have a problem with the pump not priming, disconnect the pipe at rear corner of block, and fill the port with oil. Then turn engine backward, which you can do by selecting 4th gear and rolling the car backward. That draws oil from this port back into the pump. Keep it up until you get a pint of oil into the port, at which time it has filled the pump, after which it will pump oil okay. If the pump is badly worn it should still prime and pump once you have oil in it, just may not develop enough oil pressure when running.

If that doesn't get it pumping, then you have a significant problem that must be fixed. Most of these problems involve removing the oil pan for a look underneath. If you have installed a 3-main type gasket above a 5-main oil pump, it will have a large air leak and will not pump. If you left out the oil pump drive gear it won't pump. If a certain brass plug is missing from bottom of engine block, all oil from pump will return to the sump, and it won't make any pressure.
Barney Gaylord

Thats the plan Barney. The pump is new from Moss, so its an MGA pump, and I don't have any spare gears in my trash box, so let's see what happen when I roll the car!
-24 C outside this morning so might not be today!
Art Pearse

Art

That is the reason for no oil pressure. Oil frozen solid!!!

Sounds a bit chilly over there with you. If we get down to -6 C we think it's cold. Not the weather for under the bonnet.

Steve
Steve Gyles

It's in a garage which I can heat electrically, so it's more a psychological block to get out and at it!
Art Pearse

YES YES YES! I have oil pressure at last
50 psi on the starter.
With all the extra oil I put in, I'm now a bit over the high mark on the stick.

Now where did that spark get to?
Art Pearse

Well done Art. One step closer. When do you plan to complete the rebuild?

Steve
Steve Gyles

Steve, I want to have it on the road as soon as the snow is gone - about April! After running the motor I have all the cockpit trim, carpets etc to do, plus get a safety cert.
Art Pearse

Found the spark problem. The (new!) points were not conducting when closed - resistance was off scale. I ran some 400 emery paper through them and now I have 0.0 ohms across. There was a slight blemish on the larger contact which had a bit of height to it.
Art Pearse

Art,

How 'bout some more pictures of this resurrection job.

John
John Backman

Here you go


Art Pearse

And another...


Art Pearse

Started the fuel pump. Lots of delivery and a bad leak at the flex line. Replaced the tubing and tried again, this time fast ticking then stops. No leaks visible or smell, no carbs overflowing.
BUT the pump is ticking about once every 10 sec, very quietly.
Could this be the disc valves are not quite seating? (SU pump). They are new, as is the diaphragm.
Art Pearse

"...the pump is ticking about once every 10 sec, very quietly.
Could this be the disc valves are not quite seating? (SU pump). They are new, as is the diaphragm.:

Could be that the valve seats are leaking a bit. At once every ten seconds, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

IT RUNS!
It fired immediately on first pull, then with a bit more choke, continued running nicely.
Lots of smoke from the oil I'd laced the cylinders with, plus paint burning off the exhaust system, which cleared up after a few mins.
Let it run very fast idle for about 10 min, then it idles very nicely.
60 psi oil, temp evened out at 170.
But I don't have any tacho reading (electronic) and the ign light does not go off.
But for now I'm very happy!
Art Pearse

Well done Art. Another hurdle. Any drips?

Steve
Steve Gyles

Yes isn't it a lovely feeling starting your engine after a long spell. I started mine earlier this year for the first time after a 26 year gap! I'd forgotten how it sounded - a lot louder than I remembered it probably due to a new s/s exhaust. I think I would have appreciated the noise more then than I do now..........Mike
m.j. moore

No oil or water drips Steve. Previously I had brake fluid leaking from the 4-way where I had not tightened the joints finally, so there is still the odd drip off the frame, but it may be just that. I think I will renew the flex oil pipe to the gauge as it is the original one.
It is a great relief to hear and feel it run. Also the clutch feeds in nicely.
Now to figure out the generator and Tach problems!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgQXoQAE9bk
Art Pearse

This thread was discussed between 12/12/2013 and 22/12/2013

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