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MG MGA - Starter motor

Hi

Have finally got to the root cause of problems with TheOldLady (my 1958 coupe).

After a forced visit from the AA, following a run out. It is confirmed that the starter motor either needs reconditioning or replacing.

I'd rather not have to pay twice and risk purchasing a second hand unit. Am also not too keen on the expense of a new high torque option.

Ideally I would like someone to recondition my unit (not exchange). Does anyone have any suggestions of someone / business's local to Milton Keynes that are reliable and good value for monies.

Also how do I drop out the starter motor in preparation ?

Many thanks, Matthew.
M Elliott

You need to remove the oil filter to get the starter motor out.
Neil MG

What are the symptoms?

Paul
Paul Dean

I don't know how near MK you want to be, but these people are excellent, and have the facilities for testing and reconditioning the older Lucas stuff ( although it's a few years since I last used them. )

They only have a small workshop, and tend to be very busy because their name gets passed around the industry;
but worth a call ...

Burwell & Ward Autoelectrical Services
27 Cunliffe Drive
Kettering
Northamptonshire
NN16 8LD

01536 481453
J N Gibson

Matthew. As Neil says. when you pull the motor forward to disengage it from its housing it strikes the oil filter. Tilting the motor is limited by the steering shaft on RHD cars.

The motor itself is held by just two bolts that are quite accessible from underneath; also the power lead from the starter switch. You will probably need to jack up that side of the car to give you working room underneath. Make sure you do it safely with perhaps blocks of wood (not bricks) to back up the jack support. As you are apparently unfamiliar with this type of work you should also consider disconnecting the battery. Whilst the power lead to the starter motor is 'dead' (no current passing through unless someone pulls the starter knob), it is a worthwhile practice for many electrical jobs under the bonnet.

You may find it cheaper to buy a new (Lucas M35) starter. They are still made and cost about 70. Plenty of second hand ones in working order (supposedly) on Ebay for 20 ish.

I have one of the high torque starters you mentioned. Although expensive in comparison they have two distinct advantages.

1. The drive dog engages the front (unworn) side of the starter ring so if yours is worn (rear side) it saves the cost of an engine out and ring replacement when it is no longer up to the inertia starter engagement job (Whirring and gnashing of teeth). Also, the motor does not spin until the starting dog has engaged the ring, so no more gnashing of teeth.

2. The starter contains its own solenoid. so the starter switch is used to supply a small current only to the solenoid. The main starter power terminal connects directly to the battery. This prolongs the life of the starter switch - a significant issue with new starter switches these days.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Hi

Thanks for the advice Neil...would I not be able to drop the starter motor out the bottom without removing the oil filter ?

Paul the symptoms are of only working following a sharp bash with a pole...may just be worn brushes or issues with the commutator.

Thanks for the details J N will contact them and see what the can do.

Matthew

M Elliott

Thanks Steve

Have already disconnected the battery and live from the starter switch.

Am getting all to familiar with TheOldLady's electrics, having replaced recently : battery cables and earths.

All fun, invaluable learning and part of the enjoyment of MGA’s.
M Elliott

Mathew

The reason I asked what the problem was because of one that I once had, and this could well be the same. The symptoms were very similar to yours, i.e. sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't.

My problem was the internal long alloy rod that takes the power from the terminal to the other end of the starter was broken. It can gets twisted by taking the lead on and off and hence can fail. Mine was fixed by a french country workshop somewhere south of Paris who fixed (soldered or brazed?) a sleeve/tube around it. That was in 1970 and starter is still on the car never giving anymore problems. If you take the starter out and then take the end plate off this issue should be obvious.

You say your car is 1958 which should mean 'low starter position' (unless it has been changed at some time). If it is low starter from memory I am sure you can take the starter off without removing anything else, and this is also what the original workshop manual says in section N8, i.e. 'Release the starter cable from the terminal and unscrew the two starter securing bolts. Manoeuvre the starter forwards below the oil filter, then rearwards and upwards' Its fiddly but it works. it may be easier with 2 pairs of hands but I have never had assistance. My manual also covers early 1600s and it doesn't change this instruction. It would certainly be more fiddly with the 1600's high starter position but may still just work, although taking the filter off may help even if not strictly necessary.

Paul
Paul Dean

My car is low starter. I can't get the starter out orin without removing the oil filter. It almost is possible on a LHD car, but the shaft is just a centimetre too long t get it out.

On a RHD car I seem to remember that the steering column made it absolutely out of the question, but its 20 years since I converted my to LHD, so I am no longer sure.
dominic clancy

Matthew, Just a thought, if you want to keep your car on the road whilst your starter is being rebuilt, I would happily lend you a starter motor. I am located in Newton Longville, which is just outside the MK boundary. Dave 07912 072372
DM Gibson

If a sharp tap cures the problem temporarily I'm wondering if its just a dry bendix gear.

It might be worth gibing the bendix a squirt of WD40 to see it makes any difference.
John Bray

I saved some small amount of money by overhauling my starter motor, but that was only because I was able to get the commutator turned on a lathe by a friend who is a machinist. Beyond that, the most difficult part of the process is getting the leads for the new brushes soldered into place. It takes a lot of heat from a large iron, and is easy to screw up.

For me, the primary motivation was not to save money, but to retain my existing starter. The car belonged to my dad, and my goal is to retain as much of his car as is practical. Some pictures of my starter motor can be seen here on Barney's site:

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/ss_110.htm

The pinion pictures are not mine, although I did replace those parts as well.

-Del
D Rawlins

"John Bray, Bedford, United Kingdom
If a sharp tap cures the problem temporarily I'm wondering if its just a dry bendix gear.

It might be worth gibing the bendix a squirt of WD40 to see it makes any difference."

The Bendix needs to be dry and free from any oil and grease. Graphite powder is a good lubricant once everything is cleaned up.

"M Elliott, Milton Keynes, United Kingdom
Hi

Thanks for the advice Neil...would I not be able to drop the starter motor out the bottom without removing the oil filter ?"

There is not enough of a gap there, it looks so close, but it just doesn't come out. You can always give it a go, you never know!

Hopefully everything will become clear once the motor is removed and examined. As Steve says, good used motors are available from £20 and they are easy to examine and test and are normally very reliable.
Neil MG

I inadvertently posted my thoughts obout this on another thread! This is what I said late yesterday afternoon:


Paul. Of course. I had this nagging feeling that I had taken the motor off my 1958 model quite happily in my early days of ownership without taking off the oil filter. But back in 2000 I fitted the high starter position back plate with my 1800 engine...... How memory fades over time. Also, not sure if the spin on oil filter mod has any bearing on this issue.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Although I remember taking it out without removing the filter (like Steve I went to high starter in my case when I got a 1600 gearbox) if it makes it easier taking the oil filter off it is a small price to pay to make the job easier. The other thing that can get in the way is the flexible hose to the clutch and you certainly don't want to disconnect that!

Back in 1970 the only reason I had it repaired was that after finding the Paris BMC dealer they didn't sell the exchange units you could then get in the UK but just brand new ones for a pretty high price. Like others say if you can get a secondhand one for 20 I would go that way. I have a spare but I am not selling.

Good luck.

Paul
Paul Dean

Hi

Thanks for all the assistance. Am in the process of removal, just the bottom bolt to take off, the top being loosened and power removed.

Will keep you updated of progress, have a busy week so may only be at the weekend that I can get into the garage!

Aim is to recondition this unit myself, should that be possible.

Would rather future break-downs be my fault – lol.

Again, many thanks, Matthew
M Elliott

One additional thing to beware of, is I bought new bushings from one of the usual suppliers, and one of them was not trimmed to correct length. Double check against the old bushings before you try to install them.

No oil on the pinion mechanism.

-Del
D Rawlins

Hi Del

Thanks for the advice.

I just finished reading over your 'Starter Overhaul' thread from 2013/14.

Good advice and very useful picture, thank you.

http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?2,2558621

M Elliott

How about removing the distributor rather than the oil filter - a lot less messy. Just mark the flange and put back in the same spot - timing is uneffected.
Mike


Mike Ellsmore

I was trying to avoid linking there, but glad you found them helpful all the same. As I get around to it, those pictures will be removed and/or replaced with something else on the server that hosts them.

-Del
D Rawlins

In the past I have linked starter motor work with a service, so when the filter came off I did an oil change as well. Seemed an economical use of time, money and parts.

Not always possible of course if the starter has failed and you have just done a service!

Steve
Steve Gyles

Before anyone queries the mark! the white blob on the top is the mark, the other is the liquid paper that ran down between the flanges!
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Mike, will the starter still go back (forward towards the flter) far enough to come out like that? Still worth a try, although I plan to change oil more often than starter motors :-)
Neil MG

Our local MGAguru (hope that name isn't copyright) assures me that it will go, he has done it several times. My distributor is out just to check points and give it a service before the big trip.
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Neil and Mike

I had often also wondered about that option but decided it was less hassle to go the filter route. Despite what Mike says about marking the position of the distributor (which I also do on removal) I still much prefer to dynamically retune it on replacement. An armful of oil is a better option for me.

Touch wood, my hi torque starter has had 4 trouble free years to date. Also, not sure the extra girth (Solenoid etc) would allow it through the gap for an upward lift out.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Hi

Update on starter motor.

Having obtained a reconditioned unit (MGOC) am nearly ready to go.

As stated and discovered, the oil filter needs to be removed first.

Am not to sure if TheOldLady has the original canister or if the previous owner has converted to a spin-on.

To aid identification I've attached are a couple of photographs.

The part doesn't instantly appear on Internet searches or parts catalogues.

Is it worth utilising this time to change to a spin off filter and is the Moss conversion reliable ?



M Elliott

That is a spin on filter conversion. Those filters are readily available too.
Neil MG

Mathew
You have a spin on filter, so you may well change it, and the engine oil, while you remove it to change the starter.
regards
Colin
Colin Manley

As TheOldLady currently doesn't start, would it be advisable to change 'cold' oil ?
M Elliott

Yes, no problem at all changing cold oil. The only reason to change it hot is that it flows faster. You are not in any hurry and so you just let it drip out a bit longer.
Neil MG

Hi

A quick update, I've now two starter motors, see photo attached.

The one on the left (green paint?) is the non working 'original' to the car.

The one on the right (black paint) is the reconditioned one from EBay via MGOC.

It turns out the flange plates and thereby the fixing bolt holes are different making a simple swap impossible.

Are they totally incompatible, or is there a way I can combine parts / the innards from new and original case?

Many thanks, Matthew


M Elliott

Matthew, I have just been out to the garage and measured the bolt centres on an MGA starter motor- they are 5" (this is actually cast in to the end plate) This appears to be the same as a midget, so a starter from one of these would probably fit. My offer of a loan starter motor still stands - it would be a shame to miss this great weather! Located in Newton Longville just outside MK(about 400yards from the boundary!) Yours, Dave
DM Gibson

Hi Dave

The replacement starter motor I have has also 5" centres.

However the one from my car appears to be at 5 1/2" centre.

That means your kind offer would not solve my problem.

I do have your details saved for future assistance.

It is beautiful weather, but work, a young son and management instructions to have the garden revamped makes for little exclusive MGA time.

Regards, Matthew.
M Elliott

Hi

The starter motor I have, has 9 teeth on the pinion and replacement has 10.

Does anyone know if this difference also extends to bolt spacing.

Or is my engine and starter motor even originally for an MGA or could it be a replacement from something else ?

Am off to local workshop this weekend to see if they can refurbish ‘original’ item.

M.
M Elliott

Matthew

The bendix as it is called can be replaced or swapped over. I have the removal tool if you wish to borrow it.

5th item down on this page in my website: http://www.mgaroadster.co.uk/odds_and_sods.htm

Steve
Steve Gyles

Hi Steve

It's more than the bendix that needs swapping.

The bolt centers are different so I would need to swap everything except the end plate.

Ta, Matthew.
M Elliott

At this point, your entire drivetrain is suspect, at least for being not originally from an MGA. If you can find out what car the gearbox and rear engine plate came from, that should tell you what starter you need to find.

Your existing starter that fits could be a clue. There should be numbers stamped on the body that may tell what its original application was.

-Del
D Rawlins

Mathew

A flyer dropped out of this month's edition of either the the Car Club or Owners Club journal featuring Lucas part nos. Unfortunately I have chucked the leaflet but seemingly most Lucas parts have the part no. stamped on them. The company were called Holden (www.holden.co.uk) so I would find your number and ask them what it comes off, clearly not one with an MGA backplate.

Paul

Paul Dean

Thanks Paul & Del and others...

Will be home this evening and clean up starter motor and post pictures of any ID numbers I find.

What else should I be looking to investigate more about the possibility of having a non-original drive train ?
M Elliott

Matthew

No problem, the offer is always open and to anyone else in the UK. I actually have no need for it as I have a hi-torque starter. One of those tools that I like to keep in the cupboard 'just in case'.

My old starter has 9 teeth. Lucas M35 is what the car should have.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Steve

Could you measure the bolt centres on the starter motor you have, what year do you believe it is ?

Regards, Matthew.
M Elliott

Matthew

5". That is also the standard measurement for the MGA engine backplate on which it is mounted.

I sold on my M35 stamped motor a while back. The current one is a Lucas TVS. The originals have the data stamped into the cylindrical casing and normally includes a production date. Modern ones may not. Mine, for example, has Lucas TVS cast into the end casing. That is all

It looks like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LUCAS-TYPE-LRS101-M35G-2-Bolt-Inertia-Starter-Motor-NEW-/110711661767

Steve
Steve Gyles

Steve, The info on the bendix spring compressor looks quite comprehensive- I'll probably make one for myself this weekend.
Dave
DM Gibson

Dave

I also gave the measurements to Barney and he did a CAD drawing for his site.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Hi

Have cleaned up 'original' starter motor and found the following markings...

On the body of the starter motor :

LUCAS
25979F 12V
M35G 1 10 62
Made in England


On the end of the body :

54253141FR5

The new / reconditioned one is a M35J with bolt centres at 4 1/2".

Having remeasured the original, bolt centres are 5", my mistake, sorry guys.




M Elliott

Hi Dave

Depending on visit to work-shop tomorrow, I may take up your offer of loaned starter motor.

How does it match with my green painted 'original' ?

Ta, Matthew.
M Elliott

Matthew

Your M35J was fitted to the following vehicles:
BEDFORD CF 1.6-2.0 01/1969 01/1971
BMC Ital 1.3 01/1980 01/1984
BMC Marina 1.3 01/1972 01/1980
BMC Midget 1.5 01/1975 01/1980
BMC Minor 1000 01/1964 -
TALBOT GB 1250 01/1970 01/1973
TALBOT GB 1500 01/1970 01/1973
TRIUMPH 2000 01/1969 01/1971
TRIUMPH Dolomite 1300 01/1976 01/1981
TRIUMPH GT6 01/1969 01/1974
TRIUMPH Spitfire 01/1969 01/1981
TRIUMPH Toledo 1.3 01/1971 01/1975
VAUXHALL Victor FD 1600 01/1968 01/1971
VAUXHALL Viva 1600

Seems you were sold the wrong motor.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Thanks Steve.

That will be why it doesn't fit then !

Have arranged a refund so only down postage.
M Elliott

Matthew, I can be contacted on 07912 072372,
Dave
DM Gibson

Glad the problem turned out to be a simple case of the wrong part, rather than a bastardized drivetrain.

-Del
D Rawlins

It is a relief Del.

Goes to shows the total fallibility of my measuring, I blame tiredness and being a civil engineer !
M Elliott

Hi all.

That's TheOldLady running again.

Thank you for all the advice and especially Dave for loaning me a working starter motor for the summer.

He's throughly decent chap with lots of MG knowledge and MG hospitality.

Will be out and about exploring new roads, hope to see some of you soon.

Again, many many thanks, Matthew and TheOldLady.
M Elliott

This thread was discussed between 12/03/2015 and 18/04/2015

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