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MG MGA - Ok here it is, my dream car

Well here it is, my dream car.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1961-MGA-1600-MK-II-Original-RHD-Roadster_W0QQitemZ4649922548QQcategoryZ80750QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Before I start going all crazy bidding, has anybody out there seen this car or know anything about it?
Tysen

Tysen - To the best of my knowledge (I'll check Clausager tonight) all MkII's had the dash and "scuttle" covered with "leathercloth", ala the Twin Cams, so it's odd this one doesn't. Given that the seller states the restoration was done so carefully, I'm surprised this wasn't done. I own an earlier MkII (built in April of '61, bought it in 1968), so it's not a factor that the car was one of the first 2000 or so built in the 8000+ run of MkII's
- Ken
Ken Doris

Tysen

It's something or nothing but the registration 8568 BT was not standard issue for the early 1960s. At that time it was normal for registrations to be 3 letters and 3 numbers or vice versa. However, it is possible that the owner requested (bought) this pre war number at the car's initial registration - quite common today but I am not up to speed on the regulations in those days.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Sorry Steve but 8568 BT is correct for the year of the car as it is part of a series issued by the East Riding of Yorkshire starting in January 1960.

Pre war numbers were the other way round eg BT 8568.
Malcolm Asquith

Malcolm

I stand corrected. You learn something every day. Many thanks for the info. I had always thought the 4 number registrations were pre-war.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Ken,

I thought I saw the same thing, but look carefully at the picture again and you will see what looks like piping on the dash at the bottom and a couple of pulls on the cloth that makes me think the vinyl is there.

I don't think its on the scuttle tho
Tysen

Tysen - given the lack of clarity in that one picture of the dash it's hard to tell.
Worth asking the seller the question though.
- Ken
Ken Doris

One feature I noticed about the dash - the turn indicator is in the wrong location for a MK II. I believe it should be in the 2 o'clock position off the speedo.
Tom Dimock

No heater?
R J Brown

My opininon only, of course. I would dream of an earlier model with left hand steering. It does look pretty nice, though. You could always have 2! I'll bet it was the comment that it hasn't needed much maintenance lately that swayed you, hehe. Yours is almost at the minimum maintenance level now, Ty.
Tom

Tom,

As much as I like the earlier models, I just love how moving the rear signals on the Mk II allows the rear fender to have an uninterupted curve, I also like how the front grill continues the natural curve of the hood.

The "minimum maintenence level" is cute, you are right I am almost there now 1 hour fixing to 1 hour driving.

Thanks
Tysen

Perhaps the person who had it restored just did not like the Vinyl dash and scuttle - I for one prefer the painted dash. Two of the things I dislike about the MK II is the grille and the tailights (sorry Tom). Otherwise the car looks to be in great order - a few minor things as pointed out above (also note the car is missing the spare tyre cover and the piece that fits around the spare tyre opening into the cockpit.)

Price at the moment seems very reasonable - hope you get it Tysen!

I would kill to have a right hand drive A to go along with my RHD mini - only problems with RHD in the states is paying tolls, passing and the looks you get when you have your Irish Setter sitting in the LH side of the car :)

Rick
Preping the 1600 for the drive to Gattlinburg next week!
Rick Brown

Tysen- I think the reflecting light off the dash indicates that it is painted. Also, did the mark 2 have the hole in the rear bulkhead for the spare wheel? My mark 2 has a solid bulkhead but it is a coupe and so roadsters may be different. It is possible that this is an earlier car upgraded to mark 2 spec.
John
J H Cole

The reflecting light off the dash is exactly the reason why they brought in the vinyl. I rather like the vinyl - it creates more of an integrated feel to the cockpit.

The Mk II does have a hole for the spare wheel.

Richard.
Richard Ross

Two things that are not in my dream , its red and its not a coupe .
karl

Scuttle should have black vinyl for that interior -- the vinyl keeps you from getting blinded by sun reflections. I agree w/the folks who think the dash is painted (w/black interior, I believe it should be black vinyl). The polished steel trim strip on the bottom of the dash is missing, and the radio blanking plate should be vinyl covered. Also note there's no heater/demister, which you will care about if you drive in the winter. Trunk shouldn't be carpeted. The side curtains look like aftermarket replacements. Looks like the "1600 Mk-II" medallions may be missing from behind the oval engine bay vents too. None of it's major, but if you care about such things, you should know up front.
Mark Lambert

Wasn't going to chime in here but I agree that the scuttle/dash is not correct for a MKII.

Also the tonneau is an aftermarket long one but the short tonneau lift-the-dots are in place and will eventually poke thru the tonneau. Also, the later tonneaus did not have a steering wheel pocket.

The fabric for the rear bulkhead spare tire opening is missing. This must have a name! And there is no spare tire holddown clamp.

The arm rest is missing.

Virtually every other car on eBay has at least one photo of the engine compartment. Anyone want to guess as to what we would find in there?

Chuck
Chuck Schaefer

Here are soem comments after re-reading Clausager last night, confirming whay many of you have said, disagreeing with some others:

- MkII dash and scuttle should be vinyl, color to match the upholstery.
- Radio speaker should be chrome.
- Turn indicator light should be at 2 o'clock position from Speedo.
Ken Doris

Correct Mk 2 details (for the most part - I have judged concours for years and I KNOW there are 3 non-original details in the interior, for instance) albeit a coupe are at

http://www.rhodo.citymax.com/page/page/1653190.htm
Bill Spohn

Rick Brown, I don't like the taillights either. Sorry Ty. I love the picture in my mind of people thinking the dog is driving! That would be worth the other inconveniences. You could even put a dummy steering wheel there as a shelf to put his front paws on to make it somewhat more believable.
Tom

What a conversation. A car does not have to be absolutely concours to be classed as an excellent car. Some people are not totally obsessed with the position of the left indicator! This is obviously a car that was restored by a group of trainies to a high standard of workmanship, not authentisity! What is wrong with you all?
Dick

Dick - no "total obsession" here - just commenting on how this excellent car was restored with some apparent changes to what were the original factory designs. Given that the eBay post mentions the fact that that restoration was done in a very careful, documented manner, these "differences" are more noteworthy. For some, they might lessen the value of the car, for others, perhaps make it more appealing.

Having spent the last few years restoring my own MkII, I did research to find what was "original" and tried to put it together that way. I think that's what "restoration" means - to restore something back to its original condition. This car has some obvious changes from original. That's all my comments were about.

Would you prefer that no one on the BBS ever comment on a given car posted on eBay?

- Ken
Ken Doris

I agree with Ken. So many people try to pass off as "original" some pretty wrong stuff. E-bay seems to get a lot of this kind of garbage all the time. Any help from these post to help pick out the imposters sould be appreciated.
Why did this guy not include engine bay pics? What is he hiding?
BTW I have a 1500 roadster, a 1500 coupe, a 1600 roadster and a 1600 MK11 roadster. I think the MK11 tail lights are far and away the best looking with the 1500 close behind and the bulky 1600 tail lights downright ugly.
If I could find a right hand rack I would make at least one of my cars RHD, I think it looks cool.
R J Brown

RJ, I agree. If a car is being presented as a restoration then the restoration should adhere to original specifications.
I agree also on tre 1500 tail lights being the best of the three solutions but I'm sorry, the Mark II tail lights have always looked to me like an after thought and just "stuck" on. Perhaps a different shape in that location, as that does allow the line of the fender (mudguard) to continue uninterrupted. There must have been hundreds of styles of tail light being produced at the time. The Mark IIs look , to me, like something from a car made in the 70's or 80's. But that is the beauty of a forum like this in that it allows for our individual opinions. I may in fact revert to the 1500 style on my '60 Coupe and '60 Roadster. In the interest of originality it's a simple matter to get it back to "original:.
A. Tirella

I agree with you Randy I have seen many cars advertised as original with out an original part on them! That said this car is niether advertised as original nor concours, thus I have to agree with Dick!

If it were a case that a car needed to be 100 percent spot on to be classed as a restored car then we would not have one between us unfortunately. Many owners who IMO restore their cars improve them by doing at least one of the following long list of improvements, that by some reasoning here would negate them from being a restored car.

1800 engine
5 speed gearbox
Fancy fabric hoods/tops
stainless steel and plated nuts and bolts
wrong type of paint finishes
Powder coating suspension and chassis.
electronic ignition
alternators
12 volt batteries.
Radios (there wasn't a car left the line with a radio fitted.)

I could go on and on to what effect?
I am pleased Bob West did not restore SRX in the manner of when itt left the production line otherwise we would have had an enormous travesty. But IMO he restored it perfectly to how it was when it left the competitions building!
Bob (robert) I am turning? yes I once owned an MGWasp!!

Bob, I do agree that a restoration to a certain level or time is appropriate such as the example you cited. but a restoration is that... a restoration. It implies to me, that all parts of the car were rebuilt or replaced with like parts. In today's MGA crowds it is implied that that includes the Taiwanese and Chinese parts that are commonly available and not just factory OEM parts.

The seller does not describe the car as restored, but rather "completely restored from the chassis...." To me this would indicate that it is an accurate representation of how it left the factory.

By listing the deviations found in the few photos posted, two things occur. First, it is a means to sharpen one's observation quotient in looking for discrepancies. Not altogether a bad thing for some of us who need to exercise some of the gray (grey?) matter. And secondly, it helps educate some of the less experienced in the hobby as to what is "original". Not all have purchased the required reference manuals.

This is by no means any disrespect for those of us, myself included, who choose to make modifications to suit themselves. However, I would never call my car a "restoration". Well.... maybe I would but I would qualify it by identifying those items that are not proper for its period or are proper but not as my car left the factory (per Heritage certif.). In fact I have done that in a paper that I display during our Cruise Nights etc.

Chuck

P.S. I have never liked the MKII taillights but after 44 years, they are starting to grow on me.
Chuck Schaefer

FWIW, this is exactly the feed back I'd hoped for when I originally posted this.

I'm not looking for a concourse car, but the more information I get the better decisions I can make on the car.

There are a couple of issues on the car bonnet fit isn't right, passenger door fit is WAY off at the hinge side and there's a funny bump on the rear left wheel arch that makes me suspect a there was some misfit issues.

Tysen
Tysen

I hear what you say Chuck. Out of interest have you ever seen a "restored" MGA without any of the faults listed above?
Bob (robert) I am turning? yes I once owned an MGWasp!!

Well Bob, I have seen some very nice restorations that were done with better craftsmanship. And I have seen some that are more "correct" if you get my point. As to 100%.... well I'll admit that MGA's probably did not up to today's expectations when they 1st rolled out of Abingdon.

I guess my issue is with the rather loose use of the term "restoration". I have seen some use the term for a respray and a change of fluids. I would never want to see the MG family get to the level of the Cor**tte group where restorations have to have the right date code printed on the ignition wiring or the "factory" inspection crayon marks have to be located just right and in the correct handwriting (maybe I exaggerate a bit here, but not too far).

I respect the efforts of everyone involved in this hobby, from self-done restorations to those who are just trying to keep an old car on the road. From those learning mechanics as they go to weekend racers. And every point in between. I don't mean to disrespect anybody's enthusiasm.

Bob, I do remember you and your car. And I did help distribute your CD locally a couple of years back. It is a great resource.

Unfortunately eBay has become a main stream for selling MGs and all types of other cars. It is extremely difficult to evaluate any vehicle being offered. I would never consider buying a $10,000 car without first seeing it in person. The only MGA I would consider buying in such a venue is one that required a full restoration. Knowing that every part would have to be gone through.

Knowledge is a great way to insure you are not being taken on a purchase. The more we share what is original or good (or bad)workmanship, then an individual can make a personal decision as to whether any particular car is worth the asking price.

Sorry to be so wordy, I guess I'm overdue for an MG fix. The weekend is here and it will be time for a long drive.

Chuck
Chuck Schaefer

Yes I am with all of that Chuck and it is a question of what does restoration mean.
I think it means different things to different people. To me a restoration means every nut and bolt removed from a car, serviced and replaced. Therefore I too have seen restorations done which constitute no more than a respray, that for me are not!
By the sound of it to some here it means the car should be 100% concours when finished, an extremely difficult thing to achieve and thus my point! we would have very very few restored cars if that were the case.
To sum up you are correct Chuck I too would NEVER buy a car from photos and if I wanted a show car then I would seek advice from the knowledge base here. If these guys could not spot an incorrect part I would be shocked.
Bob (robert) I am turning? yes I once owned an MGWasp!!

Now we can pick apart the engine compartment. Coil on generator is 1500 only? The bolts along the front of the heater shelf are missing lock washers and the flat washers are too large. Engine paint color appears to match the body color and doesn't look maroon enough. Fuel line run in wrong location along firewall.
R J Brown

Maybe the seller is reading this forum, with the addition of the engine photos!

Reading Chuck's and Bob's posts, perhaps we should lay the foundations for defining some terminology, such as:

Restoration: Rebuilding the car to as new and returning it to original specification.

Rebuild: Returning the car to as new but not necessarily to original specification.

My ten pennyworth to would-be restorers: the bonnet stay should be black.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Bob, we are in agreement on the definintion of restored. I look at it like the difference between a car returned to "like new" condition with every nut/bolt system being torn apart and refurbished, vs, a similar car being street-rodded. Both take a lot of effort and may have seen the same attention to detail. But one would never confuse the two.

Now it is time for me to go to school. Re: the valve cover vent hose. It appears that it is attached to the intake manifold. Is this normal for a British market car or some owner-mod? Seems like it would be difficult to get the car to idle properly located here. And were there originally any plastic covered carb dampers? Mine have only had Brass Nuts.

Chuck
Chuck Schaefer

Chuck

That vent is wierd. Not normal over here. Makes me wonder as well how the carbs were tuned. While we all have our anoraks on, the inlet manifold should be engine colour.

Chris.
Chris Paul Currah

Chuck/Chris

I may be wrong (I have been rather a lot recently - not on a good run!) but the mainifold may be from a later MGB. My Moss book for the MGB show 4 manifolds and the 4th has certain similarities.

Steve
Steve Gyles

I like the vent, I bet this car does not leak oil and will only need to have the carbs set a little richer to compensate. Many early Brit cars were done like this but I have not seen it on an MGA.
Randy I have my coil mounted there! yep and I will take my punishment like a man. Great!
Bob (robert) I am turning? yes I once owned an MGWasp!!

Adding to the chorus...the engine bay has a number of incorrect details. Most of them look pretty minor and certainly won't affect driving. I'd be much more concerned about the door and fender -- poor body fit can indicate all sorts of structural problems that will affect driving.

As to the "restored vs. rebuilt vs. original" debate, to each obviously his own. I'm a geek about originality because it interests me, and because I want people to be able to crawl over a car that looks as close as possible to the way it did when it left the factory. Other people care about reliability, or want a car that looks nice. Others don't care about appearance at all. But if you're venturing into the dark forests of Ebay auctions, it's best to be prepared with as much information as possible so you can make an informed decision. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen auctions that describe "the finest example in the country" when it's just not. And people who don't know better may end up paying a lot of money for no reason.
Mark Lambert

This thread was discussed between 14/06/2006 and 17/06/2006

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