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MG MGA - My gripe with SF (continued from other thread)

Continued from this thread:
http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&mode=thread&access=&subject=6&source=T&thread=2006101920011326075

G T Foster wrote:
>I must come to SF and Cecilia's defense here....yes, it is true that
> instead of giving a refund they issue store credit. I've been dealing
>with SF and the "others" for over 30 years. Cecilia will do whatever it
>takes to correct a problem. Sometimes she comes on a little "strong"
>but, given the chance, she will spend as much time as necessary, on
>the phone, via e-mails, or whatever, to get it straightened out. I'm
>not saying they don't have some quality problems. All our suppliers
>do. But they will go the "extra mile" that some of the others won't. >Just give 'em a chance.....

I gave them a chance, and they could not supply me with a correct part. Then, they wouldn't return my money so that I could use it to buy a decent part from another source. Sending somebody a low quality part, and keeping their money even if it is returned is not going the extra mile. At least it was not a high dollar part, so looking at it that way I got off fairly cheaply (around $45 IIRC).

What is amazing to me, is that any company is willing to alienate a customer (in this case 2 customers, as my dad had been ordering from them since the mid to late 70s) when the fault was clearly theirs. Particularly in a business where the dollar amounts involved can be considerable.

It's entirely possible that I am being unreasonable about this, but I don't think so. All that SF has to do to earn my business back is to return my money (or supply me with a decent quality battery box), apologize for the manner in which my father and I were treated on the phone, and assure me that if I have a problem with a part in the future, that I will be able to get my money back. Until then, I will continue to patronize their competitors, and warn my fellow enthusiasts about their return policies.
Del Rawlins

I am in support of any buisness helping to supply parts and service to keep our MG's on the road. However, In buisness customer service is critical.

In the past five years and thousands of dollars I spend restoring my 1600 coupe I have received every thing from excellent to junk quality parts and service. I felt that this was the state of the industry and I returned or made do with the parts I received. Being in the manufacturing industry I may be more sympathitic to low volume specailty suppliers such as with British sport car parts. However, customer service knows no volume issues other than if your service is poor your buisness is soon to follow.

That being said, I totaly disagree with her return policy so I also would only use SF as a second or third source until my last incident. I ordered the rear shelf trim for my coupe (the same part that started this thread) when it arrived it was damaged in shipping. I filled a claim with the shipping company who informed me that they would reimburse the shipper, SF, and I was to collect from them. Well, since I didn't like the fit of the part I ask for a refund, knowing that they would only give me store credit, which they did. However, they refused to return my shipping cost that the shipping company reimbursed to them. This was the final straw for me. I will not do buisness with them! Cecilia may be very knowledgeable about MG's, but find her and SF also to difficult to talk to or deal with.



Ken Caya

Our policy is to kick out the unreasonable customers on their ass , after 20 plus years of service . You can't please all the people all the time . As for me if I could put an axe right thru some customers foreheads every once in awhile maybe customer service would come back in a big way ! I also raised my prices to keep away any and all who cant afford high quality work . Our store policy is credit only . Maybe not an axe in the forehead but to cut off a finger or toe , I might harken back to the good old days of the customer is allways right . Sometimes its a different view from the other side .
karl

Karl
How would you feel if it was your money lost or the faulty parts you ordered were not up to par. Still have them same approach????
Gordon Harrison

Karl, with an attitude like that, I would NOT order parts from your company! Yes, some customers are hell to deal with. That's part of running a business. If you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen! Cheers, Glenn
Glenn

del, i would sgree that their policy is flawed in this area, but many other brit car businsses do this same thing, minimania and TSI imports to name a couple. just look at the bright side, you could have ordered from the proper MG?

Karl in FL, not surprisaed, a non member with no email?, if you are in a customer service business and think that using an axe is a good business motto or solution, you do not get it. by all means please post your business name so those of us that CAN and DO pay for high quality work will go to a shop that offers it without threat of reribution if the shop owner disagrees with us, jim
james madson

I wrote to SF to ask them about all of this, since I had planned on ordering about $500+ in parts from them (I like that they are kinda local to me)...here's the response, unedited and in it's entirety:

"We really don't worry too much about these very infrequent comments, because there's always someone out there who won't be happy even if you try to satisfy them 110%.

If you check out most of the prize winning MGA's at the local car shows, national conventions or even at this years MG2006 5 year convention you will find they all have parts from us including the NON-RUSTING chrome bumpers, the original British Everflex tops and tonneau covers, and the beautiful leather and vinyl interiors as well as the engine pistons that don't break after the first 100 miles, as do our competitors parts. We also drive everything we sell as we have a national first place concours (wasn't supposed to be) MGB-GT 50th Anniversary Golden Jubilee UK model, rebuilt and restored by us personally. It was worse than any MGA parts car in a junkyard. But that's another story.

We strive to offer the very best quality parts available and own 1200 different toolings that we have developed for many British parts. We are sorry to hear of this story but we believe this incident occurred sometime during the early 1990's, as we have had the same supplier for the battery racks since then.

Also, since we don't know the customer's name we cannot verify this, as you know there are always 2 sides to every story. We have a very fair and liberal return policy however, if a part has been installed, modified or electrical we cannot take it back under any condition, this is to protect the future customer who may end up with it

If you live in New England, you are welcome to come down to see us, as we will be glad to show you any products you are interested in as they are all warehoused here, we don't drop ship from other suppliers, and all our upholstery with the exception of the tops and original vinyl covered sidescreens which are made in England exclusively for us are manufactured here in our own in house trim department."

I think that I would still consider using them -- I did like the carpet samples they sent out, for ex. -- but I do like the convenience of the Moss online catalog better, and I have had very good luck with everything from Moss so far. I have heard that the bumpers from SF are much better (the right shape) than the ones from Moss, however.

JIM in NH
AJ Mail

>We are sorry to hear of this story but we believe this incident >occurred sometime during the early 1990's, as we have had the same >supplier for the battery racks since then.

It would have been around 1993 or 1994. They had very clearly changed suppliers, since one rack was perfect and the other was total crap. The bad rack must have been from the new supplier, because my father had ordered a pair of racks from them for his other project just 3-4 years previously, and they were fine. If all the new racks since they changed suppliers were as bad as the one I was sent, I can't imagine them not getting more complaints. Wish I had either taken a picture, or kept the rack instead of sending it back for store credit I had no intention of ever using. I guess I was hoping that when they got it back somebody would notice how crappy it was and make it right.

They can brag about show winning cars using their parts all they want, but I would definitely not have installed that battery rack on anything that I was planning on showing. Or maybe they figured that since it is concealed under the cover, then it wouldn't matter how bad it looked. For the record, when we spoke to them on the phone they would not even acknowledge the possibility that the part was flawed. It was correct because they, the great MGA experts at Scarborough Faire, said it was. And they were doing me a favor by even giving me store credit back.

>Also, since we don't know the customer's name we cannot verify this, >as you know there are always 2 sides to every story.

They know exactly who it was. They couldn't have had many Alaska customers to begin with. All they need to do is look in their customer records under "Rawlins" and see who hasn't been heard from since the early to mid 90s.

>We have a very fair and liberal return policy however, if a part has >been installed, modified or electrical we cannot take it back

None of which is applicable in my case. All that I wanted, and which they flat refused to provide, was either a satisfactory part, or my money back so I could use it to buy one someplace else. Store credit is useless to me if I am having to pay shipping both ways for inferior quality parts.

If you want, you can give them my home number (907-677-0358) and they may feel free to contact me, provided they are actually interested in resolving it. I'm not going to seek them out again to discuss it as I had my fill of frustration back when I originally dealt with them. In the meantime, I will continue to dog them on the internet when the mood strikes me, because it costs me very little to do so.
Del Rawlins

Wow, I sure wouldn't boast if Karl was in my corner!

An unusual concept of customer service an he seems to look at things from a VERY dark side, indeed.

Derek Nicholson

>Wow, I sure wouldn't boast if Karl was in my corner!
>
>An unusual concept of customer service an he seems to look at
>things from a VERY dark side, indeed.

Lots of people make talk like that when they are shielded by the anonymity of the 'net. I bet if you got old Karl in person, across the counter, that he would be the model of politeness. Besides, Florida is a "shall issue" state and the first time you threaten somebody there with a deadly weapon can easily be the last. 8^)
Del Rawlins

>just look at the bright side, you could have ordered from the proper
>MG?

Huh?
Del Rawlins

I have purchased well over $1000 in various parts from SF over the past 2 years. Of that, about $25 of odds and ends had to be exchanged, a rate I think is avg or above avg for our "usual" suppliers. Cecilia will never be "politically correct" but she is a valuable asset to us all, and gives generously of her time when you have a question.
- Ken Doris
Ken Doris

karl@btropical.com produces the following

TROPICAL WINDOW TINTING
1612 Suncoast Blvd
Hamoassa Florida
34448 352-795-3456

and
A & J AUTO SALVAGE
at rhe same address and telephone number.

PS: BE SURE TO WEAR A HELMET WHEN YOU SOP AT THIS CUSTOMER FRIENDLY BUSINESS>
Gordon Harrison

ROFL. Nice work.
Del Rawlins

The atmosphere of business has severely changed , I will say its nice to deal with older people above 60 , they are the nicest . I have been in business 20 yrs at the same location and only punched out one person . I have not beaten anybody since then honest . We luckily just choose not to deal with anyone that we cant reasonably please thats it . I know that is a copout but we choose not to make that kind of money . Car tinting is super easy as you may know , but every once in awhile ........ customer X gets the boot . Hey dont knock it till you try it . The feeling of telling someone you dont need their money is very rewarding . Next , Get out of line, there is someone right behind you .
karl

Del,
A small business is usually a bit different to deal with then a large one. Policies are held as such- it has a little to do with profit margins and the time it takes to make those profits. Most specialists could work for GM, Ford, Onan, Caterpillar, Toro or any number of other companies either building, designing or even repairing and put less hours in per day at a higher profit to boot. You might note that Most automotive speciality companies are not purchased by the Donald Trump's money making only kind of guys for their profit, but by enthusiasts who have been in the business for years or those whom have made money elsewhere and just love to deal with automotive cars or bits.

As for SF, I would say our experience with them is 92% positive. A few misc. bits and pieces that I was not really excited about but otherwise very decent. The interior was superb. My prices through Moss are better because we purchase lots through them and I will not join the beat up Moss threads but I think ripping on SF is also unfair. You purchase quite a number of pieces for MGAs that cost around $40 that if we were to manufacture one off items, would run over $1,000 for just barely over the same quality. We really do have good support in this industry.

Now I am not looking to get bombarded with negative comments but the products we develop or just give minor alterations and repackage have a return policy as well. This policy is actually similar to the one SF and a number of others use. It is there so we can stay in business. If people are ordering from us, decide that they want to copy our product and return it, they might do that except for the shipping and return costs. This costs us time, lowers a niche product quantity output and drives the price up for honest clients. Other items such as wiring in what we do, people try to copy and return- we have a strict no returns on wiring policy. Our company is a little more in the niche then even SF in my opinion and the quantities are even lower but dealing with a small company, you potentially get more of that Mom and Pop feeling- sometimes thats good and sometimes you get the less P.C. person answering the telephone.

Selling below quality parts? I have seen this with a few companies but they are looking at things a bit different and do not see or want to see problem parts. I have heard and seen this! Once in a while we all end up with these bad parts in our 'fresh from supplier X' box but so does everyone else restoring any kind of car and the cost of these few pieces of junk is worth not having to fabricate everything from scratch on our own.

Be happy for those who are helping you and doing what they love. If they don't treat you as you think you need, then don't use them. Is it right to speak poorly about them? Maybe, but please keep in mind both sides. :-)


-BMC.
BMC Brian McCullough

Personally, Cecelia has never been anything but helpful and pleasant to me. She once stopped on the side of the road to see if she could help my ailing Coupe. Professionally, I would say she has gone above and beyond the call. I know that they try to source only the highest quality parts either from England or my making their own toolings, not the cheap Asian repro parts. I have had only one part problem, a poorly fitting master cylinder seal, but I certainly don't blame that on SF. They can't unpackage and inspect every single part they send out. I've seen enough bad rubber come out of MOSS to know not to freak out. Now, if the part you want is out of stock and needs to be ordered or back-ordered or whathaveyou, you might want to check somewhere else because that usually takes a very long time with SF. But that's the only fault I can find. Cecelia has always been able to provide me with some info that I didn't have before, such as the differences between Magnette front brake line fittings and standard 1500 brake lines, and will usually offer technical advice to make sure that whatever task I'm about to undertake goes smoothly. It's nice to have someone besides you who cares that you get your car right.

Now I didn't hear Del's phone conversation so I won't comment on that situation. I know though that if I received two obviously different battery racks in the same order it would perturb me. I spent a long time in customer service and I can usually navigate the route to a satisfactory solution, whether I'm the customer or representing the business. Some people do not possess these skills. I also respect and fully support the decision not to patronize a business because I have been burned either by their product or their customer service. Hell, I won't shop at Old Navy because I won't reward their horrific advertising. As a consumer we vote every day and we have to remember that.

In this case I would hope that people do not stay away from SF because of the previous posts. I do highly reccommend them and if you choose not to give them your business, do it for your own reasons and not someone else's.

That's all and good day.
Mark
Mark J Michalak

The last of my backordered parts from SF actually showed up a year or two after I stopped ordering from them. Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with that even though it caused me some inconvenience at the time. I understand that a lot of this stuff just isn't made anymore, and that these things take time. I am willing to wait, so long as the quality of the part makes it worth that wait.

And you are right, of course, to take what anything posted on an internet forum with a grain of salt. I just think that people should be aware, that if they order an expensive item from this company, in the admittedly unlikely event that they are not satisfied with it (most of the parts they supplied us were fine), then they will not be able to get their money back. I got off cheaply. Many of the parts we need are expensive, and if you happen to get a bad one from SF, you will be SOL unless you are willing to spend an equal amount with them in the future. Since I don't believe that they should be rewarded for this policy, I will continue to withhold my business.

Also, for what little it may be worth, I grew up in a small, family owned business.
Del Rawlins

Customers arn't always right or honest or worth keeping.
Last week we had a young man bring in a car with an exhaust leak and broken exhaust studs. He had previously installed a cheap header, he works at Checker, and was trying to fix it himself.
When we were working on the car we found that he had tried to drill/tap out one of the studs and had broken off a hardened piece of something in the hole without giving us that information.
We had given him a estimate of 2 hours to fix the car. If there were no problems. He was warned that it would be more if problems arose.
When we called to inform him that there would be an additional charge for the hidden damage he became unreasonable. With his girlfriend swearing in the background accusing us of ripping them off he lied to us and denied any knowledge of what we had found. Remember people may lie but the iron always tells the truth.
He abusivly agreed to allow one extra hour of payment. My mechanic spent about 3 extra hours fixing his problem. Additionally we welded a flaw in the cheap header so it could seal and repainted it with header paint. He had used normal paint that was flaking off.
Instead of doing shoddy work we sent him out with the job done in a manner that showed pride of workmanship.
He was still whiney and bitchy when he paid for it.
We will handle him differently IF he chooses to return.
Some people can never be pleased and it is futile to try. In the long run it is them that are bitter and unhappy people.
Karl don't let them get to you, no matter how well you treat them, there are some real alligators out there. Life is to short to be angry.


R J Brown

<I just think that people should be aware, that if they order an expensive item from this company, in the admittedly unlikely event that they are not satisfied with it (most of the parts they supplied us were fine), then they will not be able to get their money back.>

Del, you state this as if SF is trying to hide their policy from their customers. In fact, SF has a very clear statement of their return policy in their catalogue. I could see getting upset if they failed to disclose it, but it is right there in black and white.

Regards,
M.D.
'57 Coupe
M. D.

I guess that makes it right. Sorry for all the fuss I have raised.
Del Rawlins

Del, in fairness to you, I don't know if the policy was in their catalogue in the '90s, when you had your bad experience. However, it is in there now (has been for at least 4-years).
M. D.

No, it was probably there. I seem to remember reading it in with the shipping info following this experience. As I said earlier, I wish I had saved the part so I could show a picture of the two racks side by side. At the time, I just wanted it out of my sight. The other one was perfect, so I still have it. The good news is that my metalworking skills are now such that I can make my own. The only tricky part will be pounding the flange into the oval holes. Actually, if I am going to go to that sort of effort, I may just make a new pair out of stainless steel.

Del Rawlins

I was a member back in the day under whipteachr but I was given an update and it shows non member deal . I am guessing that was 10 or so years ago and heres all my details www.btropical.com www.enterguard.com my brother James is in middletown Ny and is www.jamestint.com . Our mentor who taught us all how to tint is murf murphy www.artofmurf.com . Oh do not think for one minute that I dont respect customers , I really like what I do and it is allways a pleasure to do business with most of them ! I went to the www.grassrootsmotorsports.com challenge in my Stag and got alot of aggression out on the track over the weekend and tues/wed me and my nephew went to the huntin property and snapped 2 hogs with our black powder rifles . So customers should be safe for awhile . My windshield tearoff site is www.tearoffguys.com .
Karl

Del, if you make battery racks from stainless steel (a nice touch), you'll have trouble welding the stainless to the mild steel frame...

G Goeppner

Shouldn't be too big of a problem with the tig unit, but I'll definitely get some practice before attempting it. It's actually possible, and not too uncommon in aircraft repair, to weld carbon steel together using stainless filler rod, although it isn't the "textbook" practice.
Del Rawlins

At the Mackinaw City GT, a member from the U.P. complained to me about his radiator continuously boiling dry. I checked and found that he had an incorrect depth radiator cap. Cecelia had already packed all her inventory and was loading it. She opened up boxes until she found the correct cap for this guy, then repacked. She did not have to do that for a $5.00 sale. I have found that kind of service just part of her nature.
Dave De Fauw

The practice of offering only a "shop credit" for the return of faulty goods is illegal in Europe, as it should be. If companies supply substandard goods that are not clearly marked as such at the time/point of sale, it's not up to the customer to pay for the supplier's error. If I only needed one part from a store with this practice, and it turned out to be faulty, should I be forced to buy other bits and pieces to use up a store credit (and still have to pay to get a quality part elsewhere)? Surely not.

If I were to discover that a company had this practice, I would also not use them. If I only found out in retrospect, I would then contact the credit card company to recall that part of the payment that applied to the faulty goods. In every case where I have had to resort to this approach, I have been reimbursed by the credit card company, who then sorts it out with the retailer. Either the retailer fesses (and coughs) up, or they deal with the CC company, end of story. Usually only the stupid ones try it on.

In Germany the law is even tighter. Goods can be returned within a certain period and the shop must cover the return postage. The guarantee is for two years by law, and if a product breaks or fails in those two years, the buyer is entitled to an immediate replacement from the retailer. There is no messing around with "It has to go to the manufacturer/repair shop etc". It's a good reason to buy standard consumer items in Germany.

Similarly, with ebay and PayPal, their claim processes are so arcane and unfriendly that it's a much better approach to go straight to the CC company if a seller doesn't behave honestly. Again, the CC company has to justify its fee for the deal and its annual subscription cost.
dominic clancy

I have always received good service from Cecelia, but I don't fully agree with the return policy. However, when I ordered my leather seat covers, one of them was not very well constructed. I contacted them, sent pictures and was asked to return it for inspection. SF agreed it was substandard and made a new one and shipped it off without hesitation. If I ever have a problem, I will re-consider them in the selection process of new parts. For now, al is fine.

In Japan, when you buy something, you own it. There are absolutely positively NO returns. If you have buyers remorse too bad. If it is a gift you can sometimes exchange for store credit only. On rare occasions you can get a like exchange. It makes buying decisions tough on expensive items. You have to make sure you really want/need it. It's one cultural aspect Westerners have trouble understanding.

Tommy

tommy in tokyo, i have been trying to get some parts from a supplier there, they will not ship, would you be willing to assist? send me a pm if so, thanks, jim
james madson

Well, I don't think passing a law regulating return policies is the answer, either. The market can deal with problem vendors without any further bloating of our government and intrusion into private affairs. Word gets around, particularly with the advent of the internet. Those of us who have a problem with not being able to get our money back when returning low quality merchandise can simply take our business elsewhere. And do.
Del Rawlins

Jim,

Check your e-mail.

Tom
Tommy

This thread was discussed between 25/10/2006 and 06/11/2006

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