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MG MGA - Moss Alternator Question/Comments

Gentlemen,
I installed a Moss alternator kit on my 58 coupe this weekend. It turned out to be a lengthy process. Comments follow. The question is this:
Every time I start the car, the ignition light stays on until I blip the throttle. It then goes out and stays out until the car is restarted. Then it happens again. Is this normal? Belt tension is correct, all wiring checks out. All wiring is new, all connections are clean and tight. I have measured the output at the battery and when the light is on the output is about 12.5 V (battery voltage). When I blip the throttle the output jumps to about 13.5 V. Revving the engine gives a maximum of just over 14 V. Is this normal?

Comments:
On the surface, this is a very complete, fairly straightforward kit to install. In reality, it took most of the weekend to complete. NOTHING fit. The generator is made in Turkey, the fan is made in China, the pulley is made in England and the belt is from Germany. Not sure where the bracket and hardware came from. Aside from the issues written in the following, the alternator just barely clears the motor mount. It would be nice if the belt were about 1/4 inch longer. I wound up using the 1600 coil mounting bracket (couldn't stand to drill holes in my inner fender) but had to fold the upper lip in the opposite direction to get clearance. OK, here are comments, already sent to Moss:

1. Fan would not fit onto the shaft. Key would not fit the slot. Had to remove paint from those areas.

2. One fan blade was bent and dragging against the housing. Had to be straightened.

3. Key does not engage slot in fan when fan is installed on shaft.

4. Pulley would not install on shaft. Measured both. Appear to be the same size causing an interference fit. Polished the ID of the pulley with 220 grit paper. It now goes on, but is a very tight fit. Must be pressed on using the nut and removed with a gear puller.

5. The new rear bracket will not accept the 5/16 rear alternator bolt. Hole appears to have been made before bracket was bent and then deformed when bracket was bent. Had to rework the hole.

6. The bend in the rear bracket is not a right angle. Bracket must be bent to get flange perpendicular to alternator mounting axis.

7.Bolt supplied to attach the lower front slide adjuster is metric. All other fasteners are English.

8.Battery cable terminal sizes need to be changed when polarity is reversed.

9.Ignition light illuminates when car is started. Check of battery voltage shows alternator not outputting (12.5V). Blip the throttle, light goes out and stays out at normal idle. Voltage about 13.5 V. Revving engine produces maximum voltage of about 14V.


OK, I'm done whining now.......got any cheese?

GTF
G T Foster

Gt- just curious, why did you put in an alternator? Gary
gary starr

Is your belt tight enough? You should be able to just barely turn the pulley with your hand.

The little extra work you had to do wasn't too bad now, was it? But I think it's good you let them know it wasn't as easy as they make it out to be.

I don't think the fan needs to be held in place by the key. The pulley keeps it tight, same way with the Lucas unit. The keyway isn't really needed in the fan, as far as I can see, unless the key sticks real bad in the shaft.

Your voltage readings seem fine, except I did think the regulator would kick up at idle. That's why I said to check the belt tension, maybe it's slipping. Someone more experienced with alternators can answer that one.



Tom

Gary,
The reason I installed an alternator is that the generator failed. It began to bind up, apparently the tightness caused the pulley keyway to fail which tore up the pulley and the armature shaft. Since I was going to have to buy a new unit I decided to go with the alternator...more reliable, more current, negative ground and actually less expensive.

Cheers,
GTF
G T Foster

Moss update...
To Moss's credit, I have received two prompt responses to my e-mail. One to say that the problems I reported will be looked into. The other to assure me that, based upon my current readings, the alternator is working correctly.
I drove the car to work today....yahoo!

Cheers,
GTF
G T Foster

I know what you mean,I have an extra,but when I had to use it I had to transfer pulley and fan.I used to carry it with me on long trips and thought it was inconvenient,so I priced a pulley.Needless to say I would still need to transfer the pulley and fan!
gary starr

The ignition light being on when initially starting the car and the voltage being at 12 volts is normal. The alternator has to come up to 14.5 volts before the voltage regulator takes over and keeps the voltage at the correct level. Once the regulator kicks in, it should keep the voltage at the correct level unless the idle speed drops very low. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

I think it would be an interesting test to check back with Moss in about 2 weeks and ask them what they plan to do to correct all of the issues you raised. It is easy for them to say they will check into it - I would be more impressed if we actually hear back that they have done something about a problem.

Sorry but it is late and most of the issues you raise sound like typical Moss situations.

JD
J Delk

JD.......
I hear ya...

GTF
G T Foster

Gentlemen:

All I can say is that I am incredibly glad that such problems can exist. I don't know of many vehicles that 46 years after their production such a collection of parts from disparate parts of the globe could be put together to allow an owner to do a conversion like this and remain somewhat true to the original.

GTF. We do appreciate your input, and most of the problems you encountered are valid and do need to be addressed as much as possible. We do appreciate knowing about fitment issues and seriously work on remedies with our designs and give feedback to other manufacturers.
Michael Grant, the Moss Motors technical manager will be in touch with you on a point to point basis, but I'm hoping that my personal input as an MGA owner is not amiss.

The conversion kit was originally designed around the new Lucas boxed alternators, which are now coming out of Turkey. These alternators do have a metric tapped flange for the stay bolt, hence the one piece of included metric hardware. Short of pulling each unit from a box, welding the hole up and retapping to SAE, there is not much to be done.
The fan we had manufactured as Lucas discontinued the part and good quality used stocks are going to be drying up pretty soon. Moss took a deep breath and had the fan reproduced, so that it will be available in the future. The slot is intended to slide over the keyway and is not intended for location. This is confusing if you have never worked with a Lucas alternator before and should be included in the instructions. Sorry about the bent blade, the fan vanes are pretty fragile and difficult to protect during shipping. We will have to look into boxing them.
The pulley is made by a company in the UK and probably meets OE spec within reasonable tolerance. We will trial fit one to an NOS Lucas alternator to be certain as we do not have the Lucas blueprint to reference. It is more likely that the plating on the new alternator shaft is thicker than spec causing the interference fit. It is unlikely that we can get the manufacturer of the alternator to change this, but if we find further problems with NOS pulley we will contact them.
The rear bracket is a disapointment, I was personally very glad when contacted by the manufacturer of this part as it had been unavailable for many years. It is an OE part on the 1275cc midget with alternator only, and hence has been one of those hens tooth parts that those in the know sought out to allow installations like this on early blocks without the alternator mounting tapped holes. We originally were going to make the part ourselves, but the supplied part became available for half of what we were quoted based on the limited production run we had planned. Sadly the bracket is close, but as you noted the 5/16" mounting hole was not made correctly and does require a bit of work with a file to make right. We have been in touch with the manufacturer and have requested correction of this problem. Meanwhile the bracket is usable, but does require "fettling". A wonderful english term for making an incorectly finished part fit.
Your comment about the battery terminals is also very valid. All of the test cars we have run into had been converted to generic battery clamps, so changing the sizes did not occur to us when we were writing up the instructions. Something that we will address in the next update.

Looking back on what I have written, it is a point by point explanation of the issues, so I guess I had best copy this to Michael, so that he doesn't have to duplicate the effort.
In closing, I'd like to note that the kit was created by a bunch of us here who wanted to offer a more original conversion kit than the typical GM Chevy alternator and a couple of washers. The hope being to keep original type parts available for those that didn't want to have to do a lot of fabrication. There is definitely room for improvement in ensuring the bits all will work together, but on the whole knowing how many different manufacturers and tolerances are involved it is pretty amazing that the fit problems are as minor as they are.

Working to keep MGs on the road with bright headlights.

Kelvin Dodd
KJ Dodd

Kelvin,
Thanks for your input on this.
I will be installing my alternator kit next weekend anong with my Blower kit.
Little fitment issues are not unexpected. I worked in an MG repair/service shop back in the 70's when most parts came from BL and these issues existed then as well.
One of the reasons I got back into MG's after an absence of 15 or so years is because of the parts availability. Thanks to you, Moss Motors and the other suppliers for your efforts.

Rich
R.J. McKie

Mr Dodd,
I too thank you for your input and for monitoring the comments on this BBS. We are all grateful that parts are available. When I first started dealing with Moss, back in early 70's, it was very hard to find anything.
However, people who work on modern cars (especially the "younger" crowd) are used to the "bolt up" fit of replacement parts. "Fettling", perhaps sadly, is becoming a lost art. All we really want is a reasonable level of quality. I know your's is a very $$ competitive business, but, many of us are willing to pay a little more to get that.

Thank's
GTF
G T Foster

I just want to add, for clarification, the problems I had fitting the alternator had nothing to do with the lovely "individuality" of our somewhat hand-made cars. Given modern manufacturing methods, all the pieces should have easily fit had they not been made by the lowest bidder.

Cheers,
GTF
G T Foster

GTF
There is a lot of misinformation regarding how parts are sourced. Your thought that all of these pieces would have fit if they had not been made by the lowest bidder is pretty indicative of that misunderstanding.
The problem faced by suppliers and hence the final installer is that there are no factory specifications for most of these products. There are manufacturers doing their best to produce what they are asked for with often little more than a tarnished sample to reverse engineer. In addition the molds and tooling of many items in production are worn and refurbishing costs are too high to be offset by projected sales even if the problem is discovered. This means that although an item may look the part the tolerances may be off sufficiently that there are fitment problems.
Paying more for a part is not the problem. No matter how cheap the part, if it doesn't fit it is useless and the negative customer reaction is far more costly than could ever be offset by sales.
There is only one way to make the part right, and unfortunately very many ways to mess up. Short of trial fitting all parts and modifying them in-house before shipment we can only work together to find and solve problems and ensure the products being made are of good quality and fit. Currently there is a tremendous amount of effort being expended to find the problem parts and work with the manufacturers, or change sourcing to ensure parts stay sold and get bolted onto cars by happy customers. We are also working on ways to identify problem parts that can be made to fit and representing these issues to the customer before purchase. That is a toughey as there is only so much room for print. We are putting much more information on the web, so that we can refer customers to that material. It's an ongoing process, but with primary manufactures dropping product lines and small batch production taking over it is becoming more and more important to have timely updates of any fitting issues.

Sorry to have bent your ear so much, but as a British Car owner I am very sensitive to the issues of product quality and what it takes to get any products at all to market.

anyways, hopefully your MGA is happier with the alternator.
all the best

Kelvin.
58 MGA x 3
58 MG Magnette
Smokey Ojai, CA
KJ Dodd

Thanks Kelvin,

I am just glad parts are available, even if sometimes I have to gripe about the quality. (Perfect quality would cost a LOT more.)

Moss and the other suppliers do their best to balance a source, price, and quality. Suppliers want a profit but at a price that will sell enough to justify any prodiction. Even NOS items may requrire "adjustments".

I may gripe but I am thankful I have it.

Jim
Jim Ferguson

???
Andy Bounsall

<explanation>
OK, just so future readers don't think I'm crazy (which I very well might be)...

There was a post in this thread that looked like a spam email. I wondered were it came from and that's what my "???" post was referring to. Apparently, and thankfully, the curious post has been deleted leaving my now strange looking remark.
</explanation>

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...
Andy Bounsall

Hello Kelvin - I appreciate your attention to the BBS and your interest in the problems some of us face.

I think one thing that would be helpfull to Moss would be an increased attention to those small details that make life difficult when they are overlooked.

I can understand the difficulties Moss faces in producing/sourcing complex reproduction parts on a small scale. However, it is with some of the most basic parts that Moss fails to deliver a quality product for the consumer.

For example - most modern cars with rack and pinion steering use boots to protect the steering rack and tie rods. These boots seem to last quite well in these current cars.

Unfortunately, Moss has supplied for years boots that literally fail before the restored cars hit the road. My good friend has boots that have already failed and they have been on the car - in a garage - for only one year. Can these not be better sourced?

YOu are having similar problems with your seals and dust excluders for the front suspension.

We know that Moss can, and often does, produce good parts - Moss is providing us a great service and they have excellent parts books. I made a Moss purchase today - and will probably make one in about another two weeks. Just please be honest about what is offered and what is to be expected - I'll never forget the time I pulled the shipping tape off of a brand new Moss MGA bumper and the chrome came off with it.

Thanks for your efforts Kelvin
J Delk

I installed my Moss alternator kit over the weekend.
The only snag I have run into so far is that the rear bracket required a couple of washers as shims to bring the alternator out parralel to the engine and enable the alternator pulley to be square to the water pump pulley.
I did suffer some confusion as I am also installing a Supercharger kit as well and had the adjuster parts for both kits. One flaw in the alternator instruction sheet is that it does not have a good front view of the adjuster assembly (there is one in the blower instruction sheet) A good line drawing would be even better as a reference. (I love the old BMC manual drawings)

I have not done the wiring mods yet although I did have an anxious moment before I realised the instruction booklet contained instructions for both the MGA AND MGB..."What! That's the wrong bloody regulator!!...oh, mgb-never mind!"
Of course my confusion is compounded by the fact that I am installing the kit on a ZA and not an MGA or an MGB, and to top it off my wiring harness has reached the stage where ALL of the wires are black!

Cheers,

Rich
R.J. McKie

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I also want to complement Kelvin,with all the suppliers that they deal with,it must a nightmare at times.He at least is not hiding anonymously behind a faceless corporation.I still have the boots on my rack I purchased from them over 20 yrs ago! Thanks again, Kelvin
gary starr

Further to my comment about all of my wires now being black.
Today I hooked up the alternator and got the car running, but am having some alternator issues.
The ignition light stays on when the ignition is shut off and the ammeter shows no idication of charging. Does this mean that I got the two alternator wires reversed? I followed the instructions carefully but the all black wires gave me a hard time.
So...Does the wire from the large connector on the alternator go to the A or D terminal? (This would dictate which terminal the other wire connects to)

Thanks,
Rich
Rich McKIe

When I did my conversion I went to Napa and ordered an alternator for a 74 MGB. I then ordered the rear mounting bracket from Moss. All went in in about 45 min with no hitches. Maybe I got lucky. My alt. light also stays on till I give it a little blip.
Kris
Kris Sorensen

In the morning I will try reversing the wires and see what happens.
I just hope I haven't toasted the alternator or the regulator.

Rich
Rich McKIe

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Nud

Another pill site.
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virus on this site.
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Anyone besides myself ever wonder why this particular BBS (MG Cars Enthusiasts - all areas) is so infested with trolls more so than any other in my experience?
mephisto

I did get the problems with my alternator install sorted out. I was referred to Barney's site where he has a great explanation with simple wiring diagrams for the conversion. It turned out that my big problem was corrosion on the terminals of my 50 year old regulator. As it is now redundant I scrapped it and simply soldered the wire connections and now the problem is no more.

Thanks again to Barney!

Cheers,
Rich
Rich McKIe

This is what you get when you le NON MEMBERS POST.
Jones

This thread was discussed between 26/09/2006 and 17/10/2006

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