MG-Cars.net

Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG MGA - Car/Chassis number wrong!

I've just bought but not yet taken delivery of a 1600 'A. Here's the problem. It has no identification plate attached to the firewall shelf as it should. Just the remains of some rivets. The New Hampshire registration has for a VIN the number that's on a plate attached to the engine (not the engine number). Doesn't really matter what it is, just the fact that it's not the typical GHNLxxxxxx that should be there. I could probably just submit the NH papers to the NY DMV and get a title with that number. Unless the NY DMV is smart enough to realize that the number isn't a legitimate MGA S/N. I don't know how "smart" their system is.

As soon as I get my hands on the car, I'm going to see if I can find and read the Car Number that is supposedly stamped on the R/S crossmember near the transmission cover. If I can recover this number, does anyone have any experience getting an incorrect number changed with the authorities? Sounds like a can of worms to me.

Anyone got a spare legit Car Number lying around they can spare?

TTFN

Derek Nicholson

My MGA was bought new by my father-in-law. It is registered in NY to the engine number. I don't know why. It's always been that way. I'm not sure what you mean by "the nuumber that's on a plate attached to the engine (not the engine number)". Anyway, unless you suspect something fraudulent, I would just leave things the way they are. I think you are right about the can of worms, and I can't see any benefit to opening it.
Steve Trovato

It depends on your state's take on title numbers vs numbers on the car. I can only speak for Washington state, but can relate two experiences that I have had. First of all, Washington State requires an inspection of any used car purchased and brought into the state. This is not a safety inspection, but rather a VIN number inspection. My first experience with this was a 36 MGPB purchased from someone in Rhoad Island at a time when Rhoad Island was a non title state, thus, no title when I got the car, just a bill of sales (the car haden't even been licensed for a number of years). Ultimately, I had to take out a two year bond on the car while the state waited to see if anything turned up on a stolen car report, after which the state issued a title for the car.

The second incident was a Magnette I purchased from someone in Oregon. When I took the car in for inspection, the State Patrol Trouper stopped part way through and handed the papers back to me and told me that he was not going to finish the inspection because it looked like he was not going to find the numbers anywhere on the car and if that was the case, he would have to impound the car. He told me to take the car home and do "whatever was necessary" to find the correct numbers and bring it back. Through some research, I found that the car had originally registered in Wisconsion, using the engine number (not uncommon back in the 50s) and ...you guessed it, someone had swapped engines in the interum. My approach was (probably not entirely leagle) to make a new engine number plate with the original engine number on it, take the car down to Oregon and have them retitle the car (which now had a matching number on it and the title) by the car number, showing them the shop manual pages that show where the car number is, then bringing it back to Washington State and had them reinspect the car. I also took the shop manual with me and let them copy out the pages that showes the whereabouts of the identification numbers on the car. I got a big thumbs up from the trouper and an autorization for the DMV to transfer the title.

I even took our TD in, even though it already had a Washington State title, but had a VIN number on the title that was a combinations of Car number, engine number and body number. Again I took the shop manual with me (letting them copy the pages) and showed them how the VIN number had been originally derived and what the correct number was and asked that they write a memo for the DMV to change the number to the correct one. I hav found that if one takes all the information with them the State Patrol and DMV will work with you to straighten out any problems, but the VIN number on the title must have come from some where on the car that they can see. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Steve, when I noticed that the number on the registration papers wasn't the typical GHNL etc. number, I pointed it out to the seller. He told me that the number was on a plate attached to the engine, somewhere. I forgot to look for it before leaving. The engine number was one of the unusual (from what I read in the archives) ones with an extra "S" in it that most seem to think indicates a factory "service" engine. I'll have to wait until I go pick up the car to see exactly where this other plate is.

Steve, when you take your car in for its inspection, don't they look at the VIN number, or are they happy to accept the engine number?

Dave, sounds like Washington's to place to go to get screw-ups sorted out.

Meanwhile, if I can't find a number stamped on the cross-member, I'll have to look in earnest for an unused number from someones sock drawer.

TTFN

TTFN

Derek Nicholson

I had a similar experience when titling my MGA. I had been the third owner since the last title was officially recorded. At that time, before privacy laws etc. I asked Illinois Sec of States office to run a title history check. They sent me copies of the previous titles back to where a duplicate title was created. Funny thing is that the actual serial (sequence) number was correct, just the prefix was incorrect. The prefix was for a Wolsely of all things. all showing the same serial number.

I sent in an application for a title, along with a bill of sale, the previous title signed over to someone else, copies of all the previous titles, a copy of the factory manual, and a request for correction of title and, of course, a check.

They issued a new title in my name with the correct serial number. The only thing is that my '56 is still registered as a '59. I haven't had the ambition to ask to have that corrected in the last 25 years. Maybe someday.......

It is not uncommon to have older cars registered to their engine number instead of the serial number.

If it were me, I would find the serial number on the frame crossmember and order a Heritage certif from that. The proper "full" id number should come back. Make a new body ID plate using that number and attach it. Make a plate for the engine with the number on the old title, give it a little patina, take a photo of both the engine number (curent registration) and the "new" ID plate and apply for a new title with the correction made.

And then hope that somebody didn't make a "serial number" restoration using the same proper serial number.

Chuck

Chuck Schaefer

Derek. The plate that Derek is writing of is the one on the bulkhead near the heater. It is the plate which contains the "Car Number" space (Having the normal "GH????????" form) along with the "Engine Number", marked "See Engine on mine and all of the others I have seen.

The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is something that the US used, but most of the rest of the world did not. The VIN system was, in the US relatively standard amoung US automakers and all US made cars, after some date, had a VIN. Cars made outside the US did not have VINs because they were not made in a country requiring them and the US did not require that they be installed on new cars imported into the US. Hence, cars made outside of the US, which had some form of discrete identification, were normally registered using what ever form of discrete identification the dealer/seller used. Thus, when the the dealer did not list some form of discrete identification number on the purchase invoice engine numbers, body numbers, commission numbers, etc. might be used as the VIN for the cars.

Same thing for "model year". This concept was introduced by GM to sell more cars. (You are not a person of consequence if you are driving a two year old car, thus you need to buy This Year's Caddy!) Most cars made outside of the US had modifications to production made when the different parts were available in sufficient numbers to allow the production line to be kept going with the newer style parts. They did not wait until a certain time of year to introduce changes, along with distinct visual differences, so they could claim the car to be "next year's model".

I agree with Dave DuBois, research the original forms of identification placed on the car, and make sure they match whatever documentation you have and what you will need to title and register the car.

One thing to be aware of is there were no required "Hidden VIN" requirements in the UK until October of 1980. Certain companies and certain models did have the car number stamped into the chassis or a body part. However, this was not a universal practice and the MGB seldom demonstrates a hidden VIN on it. Therefore, over a period of something over 40 years, various parts on the MGA could have been replace, causing the car number supposed to be stamped on the frame to disappear, or, rust could have caused it to become unreadable. Do not put your faith in hidden VINs, they may not be there.

Les
Les Bengtson

Sorry, I sometimes get lazy and just type VIN, rather than chassis/car number. But whatever you call it for the MGA, it's the number the authorities put in the box marked VIN on the paperwork.

I've seen a number of 'Bs with the chassis/car number stamped in the R/S chassis leg, on the vertical surface just aft of the engine mount bracket.

There is, at this time, no plate screwed or riveted where it should be with the chassis/car number. There is onlt the remains of 2 rivets where it used to/should be.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to find the chassis/car number on the R/S cross-member near the transmission tunnel. Hopefully it won't be lost in rust-pits.

And then, hopefully, no-one has used my chassis/car number for a "serial number" restoration!

P.S. I'm tired of typing chassis/car number. For the remainder of this thread, I'm just going to refer to VIN!

Derek Nicholson

Hi Derek
I spend several days looking for my number. I did found it. It starts 14 1/2" from frame and cross member intersection and about 1/4" from rear edge. I hope yours is somewhere close to it. Powerfull light helps.
Good luck
Martin
Martin

Thanks Martin. I think they're hand stamped, so as such I'dexpect their location to vary a bit on the cross-member. I've never heard of them being located on any other chassis member than the one already described.

Where are you located? W Canada covers a lot of territory!

Derek Nicholson

Derek,
I wish I could say about NY, but in Ohio you have to have the VIN. Ohio also requires used cars purchsed from out of state to have an inspection to verify the VIN. I purchaed a Magnette that had been restored in WA, then sold to a guy in Calgary, Alberta. I bought it off the internet and had it shipped to ohio. When I got the paperwork, the Canada title and had some number on it that I could not find on the car ANYWHERE!! It was just a number, with no letters. I asked the seller MULTIPLE times where this number came from and got a vauge "it is under the hood somewhere" answer. To get ohio title I had to "find" the number on the car, then take it to the State Police on a trailer to get some certificate to take to the BMV. It was a hassle at the time and I had to take time off work, rent a u-haul with a trailer, etc, but now I have a good title again. It made things much simpler when we moved to AZ since I had a good title and AZ also requires all out of state cars to be inspected for VIN before issuing AZ title.
My advice is fix it now and you won't have it hanging over your head later.

Les, I believe only the early A's had the engine number on the tag. My 56 has it. My dad's 59 had "see engine".

Dennis, Az
Dennis

Actually, I'm probably going to import the car into Canada, so there'd probably be a double inspection, 1 at the border and 1 for the Quebec authorities. So I've got to get set up with a Kosher VIN.

Derek Nicholson

Derek,

You say, when you bring your car in for its inspection... what inspection do you mean? I have never had to bring my car or any car to any sort of inspection in NY, other than the annual safety/emissions thing that is done by a local mechanic. He has never cared about the number on any car too old to have it visible through the left bottom corner of the windshield. The DMV has always just accepted any VIN number printed on previous titles/registration documents. BTW, my car also does not have its original engine, but it is one of the earlier models with the original engine number on the data plate, instead of the "see engine" the newer ones list. Anyway, NY DMV will not be smart enough to know what an MGA number should look like. They will issue a "Transferable Registration" with whatever numbers are on the previous paperwork. NY does not issue titles for vehicles that old. You will need a signed bill of sale, or a DMV form signed by the seller, showing the price paid for sales tax calculations.

-Steve
Steve Trovato

You might want to read Barney Gaylord's article on buying or selling a title: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/buying/buy102.htm

Also, the missing data plate can be purchased, and you can get it restamped in the correct type. You will have to provide proof of legitimate numbers, though, as no one wants to go to jail for providing this service to thieves.

I have given you the best info I have on NY DMV. As far as the situation with Canada, I have no idea how any of that works.

-Steve
Steve Trovato

Steve,
Since when does NY not issue titles for old cars? I have a 1926 Ford from NY and it came with a NY title that I had to get x-fered to OHio. I had to have it inspected for out-of-state and everyting. This was in late 1980's. Have things changed in NY?

Dennis, AZ
Dennis

Dennis,

When I moved to NJ for a few years in 1980, my 1966 Fairlane did not have a NY title, and NJ decided to issue one. They had me do a paper and pencil "rubbing" of the ID plate. When I returned to NY I turned in my title, and all I got was a "Transferable" registration. I have this Transferable registration in front of me with an expiration date of 3/31/86. (What me, a packrat? Nah.) I would therefore say that things have not changed in NY in the last 25 years or so. Of course, I have no idea what the deal was with your 1926 Ford.

Now, as to the present day... please check: http://www.nysdmv.com/proove.htm

The relevant part states:

NYS does not issue title certificates for 1972 and older vehicles. NYS DMV normally issues a transferable registration for proof of ownership for a 1972 or older motor vehicle. The owner can use the transferable registration to transfer ownership to another person. If the proof of ownership is a NYS registration document, make sure the registration document is marked "transferable" on the front. The person whose name appears on the proof of ownership must sign the transfer section of the proof of ownership.

I trust I have now sufficiently bored MGA lovers around the globe.

-Steve
Steve Trovato

Derek - My point was that if you do your homework ahead of time and go in armed the knowledge of where the number used as a VIN number in the existing title, along with documentation as to what was originally used for the to title the car when it was new, the DMV will usually work with you to get things sorted out and get the correct number on your new title. My only experience has been with Washington State (which is a stickler for verfying the "VIN" number of cars coming into the sstate) and Oregon (which is not), but in both places, when I explained what I had and told them that I was ready to jump through the necessary hoops to get the car titled, the officials were more than willing to work with me.

As for how smart the system is regarding the numbers on a MGA - I would bet that the answer is not very. The DMVs haven't had to deal with a MGA in many years and there is probably nobody in the office that remembers the last one that came through. You have the advantage in that you know what and where the numbers are. You can help matters greatly by offering them copies of the paces that show how the cars are numbered. If they are anything like the inspection stations in Washington State, they will have an old notebook tucked away somewhere with various pages like that stashed in it and will be thrilled to get the offer of something that will help them in the future for the MG. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Derek,

Finding the number stamped on the crossmember is pretty difficult because they are prone to rust. In CA the highway patrol stations inspect cars brought into the state and they have an acid that they use to find stamped ID numbers. It works because it reacts to areas of compressed metal (stamped areas)differently than the way it reacts to unimpacted areas.

Good Luck,

Randy Myers
'59 roadster, coupe
Randy Myers

Hi Randy. Yes I've heard of that process. Same one as used for finding serial numbers from guns with the numbers filed off, if I'm not mistaken. Don't know anyone around here that could offer that service.

Quoting from:-

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/buying/buy101.htm

"NAMGAR produces a "Worldwide MGA Database"". Anyone know where I can access this or have a copy?

Thanks.



Derek Nicholson

Hi from Belgium....
Have you find the number on the crossmemnber ?
I have bought my first
DORMONT

Hi from Belgium....
Have you find the number on the crossmemnber ?
I have bought my first MGA last week and I'm also looking for it. Did someone have a picture t oshow me the chassis-nimber situation ?
Thanks a lot.
DORMONT

Laurent, You have mail.

Chuck
Chuc Schaefer

Dormont

There is a picture on Koen Struijk's website at this url http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgarh/pictures/1600mk2/images/107577ay.jpg

Cut and paste to fit on one line.

This is the clearest picture I have ever seen of the number stamped into the crossmember on the passenger side of the car.

Regards

Rick
Rick Brown

Just following on from this discussion, is there any correlation between the body number and the chassis number?

Colin
Colin Parkinson

Colin, From what I understand (read somewhere) bodies were built in batches of one thousand, then sent to be assembled to the chassis. The Holland Register (thanks, DereK) lists quite a few cars with both chassis and body numbers and that gives a rough idea of the correlation.
Al
A.T. Tirella

My 56 looked like it had been dragged out of a barn when I got it, complete with nest on the heater shelf. It was VERY rusty. Dad and I stand blasted the cross member on the passenger side (LHD) and the stamp showed up right away. As I recall, the lettering was quite large, perhaps 1/2 inch high. I good wire brushing might bring it up as well. If I could find it on my hulk, there is hope for the rest of you.

Dennis, Az
Dennis

many TX titles use the stamped frame number for VIN.

If you look at many standard id plates it will say something like HDAL41/XXXXXX below that it might have engine number or say "see engine".
If the number cannot be made out or you know the number, I would get one of the classic replacements and tailor it to supposed existing knowledge. The number on the frame should be vin number, if possible.

One can view many id plates on internet
Craig
Craig Braddock

I'm amazed that no-one has mentioned that the chassis number was also stamped (in both LH & RD drive export cars) on the front chassis (LHS) "dog leg" just behind the front crossmember. I have seen this on several cars here in Australia, both original Aussie CKD's, and imports from the USA. On mine, which was an USA import, it was covered with several layers of paint, but eventually it was uncovered, (& not rusted, due to it's position!)
Gary Lock

Gary, Still have not found my chassis no. and the area on the front of my chassis has been extensively repaired. If I quote the chassis no. that you suspect is my car and the body no. (B8412), do you think that if I send BMH (?) the extra ten pounds they will confirm it? Has anyone else had such luck?
Barry Bahnisch

Barry
In November 05,I supplied BMIHT with the original engine and body numbers in an attempt to locate the correct chassis number for my MK II. In December they responded with the following: "I'm afraid that the only number recorded in the MGA build records is the chassis number. So without this, there is no way that we can trace your car. Engine and body numbers were not recorded. Sorry for the dissapointment."
D.M. MacDonald

Barry,
As mentioned by others,BMIHT cannot assist with engine or body numbers, they were not recorded by the factory.
The MGCC of Victoria will be celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the Coupe around October/November, details yet to be decided. How about driving across the border, joining the celebrations and I am sure we will find the elusive chassis number stamping.I am confident it is the one I previously indicated.
Not all Australian CKD and CBU MGA's had the LH front chassis dog leg stamping, I have seen cars with it and others without. Whether a particular MGA had this stamping seems somewhat arbitrary, may have been a requirement of some State Registration authorities.
Garry
Garry Kemm

I am not familiar with this dog leg. Where exactly is it?

Dennis, Az
Dennis

Does any one have a picture of this VIN# location?
R J Brown

Dennis. The "dog leg" is a general term for parts bent like a dog's leg. Most commonly used to refer to the area of the body just in front of the rear wheels. In this case, it refers to the frame area just behind the front cross member. There is no number at that location on my 61 1600.

Les
Les Bengtson

I don't recall ever hearing of this VIN location before. With the amount of work that I did by hand on my '56, if it were there, I would have seen it.

So I'd chime in with "It's not on my '56 dogleg"

Chuck
Chuck Schaefer

I take it this is the horizontal part of the chassis that sweeps in a curve round the inner the wheel arch and not the diagonal dog leg that sweeps round the same curve but upwards to the firewall shelf?

Not found anything either. Is is supposed to be stamped on the upper or side surface?

Steve
Steve Gyles

Les's description of the chassis number stamping is correct, on the outside vertical face of chassis frame just behind the front cross member.
As far as I know, only some, not all, MGA's registered in Australia, both CKD and CBU have this extra chassis number stamping, depending on when and where they were sold.
It is a local Australian thing, it is not stamped by the Abingdon factory.
Garry
Garry Kemm

Garry, I hate to differ, but my car is definitely a USA import (LHD), and the number was stamped there. I have a Heritage Cert. to show it was a USA car.
Gary Lock

G'day Gary. What year is/was your LHD US import?


Derek Nicholson

Gary,
What is your chassis number and body number and do you know what year it was imported into Australia?
Garry Kemm

Hi guys, both my MGA Aussie chassis have the stamp as Gary describes
regards
mark
mark mathiesen

My chassis # is 13372..body number is irelevant as the car has a 1600 body. Maybe only the early 1500 cars had this number printed on this part of the chassis? The car was exported to the USA 6th April 1956.
Gary Lock

Does this mean that the Ausi importer is the one who stamped it there? Was this a gov requirement for any importer (which would explain why Gary's USA import now has one)? My 56 did not have this. I did a body off on my and I could see it on the pass side rail in front of the seat, but not up front on the curved piece in front of the wheel arch.

Dennis, Az
Dennis

Have just checked the MG Enthusiasts website. many thanks for the info. The Coupe Rally sounds interesting, will keep my ear to the ground.
Barry Bahnisch

This thread was discussed between 14/05/2006 and 09/06/2006

MG MGA index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGA BBS is active now.