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MG MGA - A nice combination - negative camber and 5 speed!

I had the chance recently to drive an 1600 MGA Coupe with the following modifications - Moss negative camber wishbone arms, Barzetta alloy disc wheels 5" with Dunlop Sport Classic 165/80HR15 tyres, Moto-Lita 14" steering wheel and the Vitesse 5 speed Mazda gearbox conversion otherwise standard - up through the Dandenongs, down Mountain Highway and thru the 'burbs. What a joy to drive, steering was light but responsive and the gearbox a dream to use (after my straight cut close ratio MGA g'box). The owner has done a couple of 1500 kms trips in this car and it shows no odd tyre wear.
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Would go en better with my Oselli 1950cc Fast Road engine...plus air con!
Gary Lock

I can only dream Gary! What mods does Oselli engine have?
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

I always worry when I hear that someone has fitted negative camber wishbones to their MGA.

My car was almost undriveable with them fitted, this was because the suspension was also lowered by around 2 inches. (My car had previously been a "hill-climb" race car which explains the suspension mods)

This combination significantly changed the suspension geometry and cause a condition called "Bump-Steer" which made the car very twitchy and hyper-sensitive to any quick steering wheel input.

Bump-Steer is a horrible condition which causes the car to violently leap to to one side when you hit a bump mid-corner, the car can instantly lurch a couple of feet to one side, which if you are near to the white line, can be disturbing/dangerous.

The twitchiness also made the car difficult to keep in a straight line without constant correction.

I didn't realise just how difficult my car was to drive until one day I was following another MGA which was being driven very spiritedly around a very long series of sharp S-bends.
The driver of the MGA I was following was very relaxed, driving one-handed, with one arm resting on the door and at the same time, chatting with his passenger.

It was the exact opposite in my car, I had both hands clamped with white knuckles onto the steering wheel, steering into each bend caused the car to oversteer to the point of almost being out of control. Then if I hit a bump, the bump steer also kicked in! It was very unpleasant and not a little scary at times.

So I decided that I had to do something about the suspension, I decided to first replace the negative camber arms with standard MGA ones because this was the easiest thing to do.

The difference was amazing, the bump-steer was gone, so was the horrible twitchy hypersensitive steering and the car was transformed.

I later replaced the lowered suspension and put the car back to standard MGA, which has proved to be excellent too.

I do wish that I had tried the standard height car with negative suspension to see how it compared with my standard setup, but it drives so well now in standard set-up with the simple addition of a 3/4" anti-roll bar, that I am certain that I will leave it alone.

The main point of all the above is to tell everyone that whatever you do, AVOID fitting BOTH Negative Camber AND lowered suspension together.

Just decide on one or the other, but NOT BOTH.

Cheers
Colyn



Colyn Firth

I am also a great fan of 1950cc - in my case a Burgess / Betson collaboration with a supercharger head. With the supercharger it was wild, too much for me. In normally aspirated mode it is a dream to drive. But my car will soon be for sale for health reasons - after 35 years of ownership it will be hard to give up.
Dominic Clancy

Mike
oselli is just another brand name
You can have a std 1800 or bigger and better depending on what you order
Same as everyone else--options cost more
You'd have just as good or maybe better in Melbourne
1950cc is an easy one, any engine shop can do that

I did get a little grin up reading your neg camber story Colyn--ex hillclimb car--If it was all over the place like that it wouldn't get far up a hillclimb, they need to be pointy and supple to go fast upwards
A question--do you think it was bump steer from the front or the rear, I've got an argument/discussion going with a mate and an extra opinion would be interesting, did the carfeel like it bumped inwards or outwards on the bump in the corner-----

willy
William Revit

I'll add to Colyn's post - when I fitted my Jamaican with MGB front suspension (I wanted shocks that 'pointed out' rather than in so I had room for the V6 in the engine bay) I also fitted negative camber A arms - and would up with huge negative camber!

Took them out again and replaced stock ones and the camber was a reasonable negative figure - around 2 deg.
Bill Spohn

I fear I am in the same boat as Dominic re selling the car. My back and shoulder injuries from my RAF aircraft ejection incident are beginning to affect my lifestyle. Crawling under the car, let alone getting in and out and steering are causing too much discomfort. Very sad about it all - 25 years of ownership.
Steve Gyles

Sorry Willy, I just saw your question about the bump-steer on my car.

When I had the negative camber arms fitted with the lowered suspension, the car would steer violently outwards, it could suddenly be two feet over the white line! It seemed to be more noticeable when I was taking a left hand bend at speed, (I suppose I would always notice a near head-on collision)

My car back then had cut-down standard front springs and lowering blocks at the rear.

Fitting standard wishbone arms cured the bump-steer issue and made it much more pleasant to drive.
I could then adopt the relaxed, arm resting on the door, one handed driving style that I had been so jealous of earlier.

I later fitted standard front springs, removed the rear lowering blocks and swapped the rear telescopic shock absorber conversion for lever arm shocks.

The handling was just as good with the standard ride height but also, the ride with lever arm shocks was a vast improvement on the telescopics.

Well its a surprise to hear that both Steve and Dominic may soon have their cars for up for sale :^(

The MGA world will not be the same without their input.

I must admit that the flexibility in my knee joints, rather than my enthusiasm for the car, may be the limiting factor in how long I can continue to drive my MGA :^)



Cheers
Colyn
Colyn Firth

Cheers Colyn, my next question was going to be about how the rear was lowered ,but you've answered that so i'm done Thankyou--
And yeah it's all a bit sad that the old body rules sometimes with car choice, we had Larry sell his really nice BGT here a while back and now these guys here--something not to look forward to i guess

stay safe
willy
William Revit

We are heading to Phillip Island Raceway for the MSCAV Sprints this Sunday - about 20 MG competitors (165 field) - about half of us are plus 70 - maybe we will need a bit of WD-40 on the joints to get us in and out of the cars!
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Phillip Island--fantastic--what ratio would you run there, just out of interest--
willy
William Revit

Mike, here's my take on the 1950ncc engine option.

I got my 1950cc 5-brg engine from Cameron Gilmour in Scotland.
To get a safe 1950cc capacity, the block is bored out and cylinder liners are installed.
This avoids the problem of the thin cylinder walls than can happen if the block is bored out to that size without liners. (Thin cylinder walls can flex and make the engines prone to high oil consumption)

My 1950 engine has a big valve cast-iron head, a Newman PH1 cam, A Weber 45 DCOE carb, and Maniflow tubular steel manifolds. It develops between 130-140 bhp (depending on which dyno it is measured on) and has 150 ft-lbs torque.

The amazing thing about the engine is that it will pull really strongly from 1000 rpm, even in 4th and 5th gears, so you can take it on a gentle cruise no problem, using just a hint of throttle.

But when you drop down a gear, it then will pull away like a dragster, revving quickly up to 6500 rpm (and over if you are not careful!).

The only slight negative is that it now returns around 24-25 mpg (imperial) which limits the range between fuel refills to around 200 miles. But non-stop, that would be about 4 hours driving and, to be honest, we generally tend to stop every couple of hours, so it works out pretty well.

What has surprised me most of all is just how well the MGA standard suspension copes with almost double the engine power that it had originally in 1500 cc form.

Cheers
Colyn




Colyn Firth

Hi Willie,
Forgot to get back to you about PI ratio. 3.9:1 that gives me around 170 kph down the main straight in 4th gear at around 5,800-5,900 (my rev limit with current valve springs) - don't like using overdrive as mine sticks in sometimes. The quickest of the MGB's was doing 180 kph thru T1 in 4th overdrive.

Cheers
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Cheers Mike
Sounds like a magic track, Hope you had a good day
The reason I asked was, I did a few jobs on a friends 1800 A the other week and it's running a 3.9 and just spearing around the backroads here in it I thought this thing would wind out nicely on a long track ,then saw your mention of going to PI and it just interested me what gearing you'd run there
Stragely, I've never been to Philip Island--I'll get there one day
Cheers
willy
William Revit

Willy

You have to go to PI. Even I have been! Barry Gannon took me there for a day back in 2012 to watch historic racing and we even got to take his street car MGA on track. Super track and great coastline scenery.

Steve





Steve Gyles

Great memories Steve. This from your visit 2012.
Aaaah! I still live the good old days!
Barry.


Barry Gannon

Nothing wrong with the old days Barry
William Revit

I have fond memories of the Phillip Island track, and raced there in a series of meetings in the 60s in my "MG Buttercup".

Buttercup had a strong MGA connection with its close ratio MGA gearbox and an 1800cc B-series in its TC chassis.

Only touring activity these days, MGA and supercharged TC.

Mike


M D Card

Mike, I remember a "Buttercup" TC going up the wall at Templestowe Hillclimb in the 60's.
Was that you?
I recently ran (on foot) up and around that old circuit which, for many years, has been converted into prime real-estate and fine homes. Much of the old track still exists as pathways between the houses.
Barry.
Barry Gannon

Barry
Yes I was a regular at Templestowe in the second half of the 60s. The "Wall" was certainly exciting.
As well as Templestowe hillclimb and Phillip Island, I also was a regular competitor in her at Calder, Sandown Park, and Winton circuits. After Buttercup I ran an Elfin in Formula Ford 1600.
You may know Vaughan Gibson, who drove MG Buttercup before me and was also a regular at Templestowe.
Buttercup has been restored and lives in Castlemaine these days.
Mike
M D Card

Mike, I have just had a long conversation with Vaughan Gibson. He is now retired, keeps good health, rides a pushbike weekly with a group of friends and is active in his community.
Vaughan tells me that Buttercup has had an extensive rebuild and is still going around.
Previous owners and drivers were Jim McKenzie and George Makin, both members of the Melbourne MGCC.
Barry.

Barry Gannon

Hi Barry, Buttercup was back at Rob Roy in 2019 as I recall at the Historic & Classic Hillclimb. Jim McKenzie re-acquainted himself with the old girl!
Cheers
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Mike, You've pulled some interesting guys out of the bush here, while you're on a roll I've got a question--back in the mid 70's I nearly bought the ex, Andrew Rennie MGC GT- It was orange, tripple Webers and wider wires--Didn't go ahead with it and wished I had, and always wondered where that car ended up--You wouldn't happen to know what sort of nick it's in now or where it's ended up
William Revit

William

Andrew lived in Brighton, and was a good source of mg spares in the 60s, but I don't recall his MGC of the 70s.
I moved to England in 1982 and at once lost touch with the motorsport scene in Melbourne.
Someone in the MGCC in Victoria should know what happened to that car.
Mike
M D Card

Cheers Mike, I used to hang around out at North Rd on Saturdays and most evenings with Trevor and Max in the w/shop on my way home from work- The C came up for sale in a car yard in St Kilda, it was a bit rough and they offered me a swap for my then quite tidy 66B--The guys wanted me to get it but I dithered and missed out. I eventually ended up with an auto CGT but always kicked myself for missing out on the orange car. Would have been mid 1976

willy
William Revit

I have been to St Kilda but no roads there, never mind an MG!

I guess yours was the final resting place for some of the residents from the very remote Atlantic islands when, or before, it was evacuated in 1930s.

It was a very rough 2 hour crossing.

Paul
Paul Dean

Willie, before my time in Victoria but will ask around the Club members what happened to that car. We still have plenty of septuagenarians in the Club with good cognitive recall!

Paul, our St Kilda has long ago lost the claim of being saintly and a little more inhabited to that in Hebrides.

Cheers
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Cheers Mike, I've been trying to think of the rego number, it had the plates on it that Andrew had on it when he had it--they were personal plates but just can't recall what they were---I'm not in a position to buy it but just interested as to where it ended up--Andrew had it before he built his red P76 engined roadster and after missing out on the C I poked a P76 in mine as well. They were about the first v8 conversions around, these 2, Paul Trevethans and there was a green roadster that a guy had that I think was a friend of or worked for Broadwalk
Thinking back, my first competition event in that car was an o/s trial in a paddock out near Calder there somewhere. bit of a disaster/laugh with a locker diff and a v8 on the grassy slopes but it kept the T type blokes amused for the day
willy
William Revit

This thread was discussed between 14/03/2021 and 09/04/2021

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