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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Wishbones from Moss

I remember reading a thread about poor quality wishbones from, I think, Moss? The original thread has long since gone off the page and there is seemingly no way of finding it

I bought a load of suspension parts and brakes from Moss in Bristol last Thursday including new wishbones.

I was a bit concerned that they might have been as bad as Jan’s but these look good so I thought it might be worth spreading some positivity....


C MADGE

See how the kingpin sits when its assembled. Is it sitting correctly or at a slight angle. Perhaps worth dry fitting it first
G Lazarus

I bought two wishbones with bottom trunnion pins and when I unscrewed the trunnions there was a load of metal swarf in both items. It was left over from cutting the centre hole and oilway. I complained about the lack of quality control/inspection to the supplier and they were quite non committal as if it was to be expected!
Note that the supplier was NOT Moss so it pays to be careful whoever you use and check it for dwarf before use.
John S
J Sloan

John,

I had the same issue years ago with a Mocal oilstat, I took it apart to find out how it worked and found quite a bit of swarf inside. I guess the nice read plastic caps on the 4 connections were there to stop the swarf falling out in transit. Again it doesn't say much about the makers quality control or attention to detail.
David Billington

Love Freudian slips!
John S said 'check it for dwarf before use.' - to be expected in a midget, surely?
David Smith

yes it was 17 years ago.

Flip


Flip Brühl

Chris,
there are various ways of finding old post, threads subject which involve a search of the Archives by year, subject, words - it can sometimes be an art so difficult to explain but as the subject was recent I looked in the Midget and Sprite Technical Archive clicking on the link for 2018 and looked at the bottom for thread titles that started with 'w'.

At the bottom is "Wishbone / stubaxle cork rings" which I think is the one you mean.

For the secrets of a more in-depth delve of the BBS Archives you need more time and experience.
Nigel Atkins

David, I believe "dwarf" and "midget" are now considered as insensitive labels. When people ask what my car is, I tell them it is an MG VC. VC for vertically challenged so I can remain "politically correct". (LOL)

Clive
Clive from Canada

Clive, better tell the guy who programs the phone's predictive text then...
;-)
David Smith

Clive,
I caught one of the autocorrect typos but missed the other. Also known as PORGs....persons of restricted growth. I first came across the term many years ago in a very funny Tom Sharpe book(Ancestral Vices) about the murder of a PORG.....well worth a read IMHO.
JS
J Sloan

Haha! Love the check for dwarf, well spotted.
Second the Tom Sharpe books, Porterhouse Blues springs to mind.
Jeremy MkIII

C Madge
Yes, it really was an eye opener to buy replacement wishbone pans. The first ones I bought at Moss was the "after market" £51 ones AHA7029Z. When receiving them I was very disappointed though, I might be naive, but believe that when buying new stuff, it will be like new. The joint between the wishbones and the stub axles, where the cork rings are placed was a little out of line, so that I could see the fulcrum pins. In my opinnion this would mean that water and dirt could easily find its was to the fulcrum pin and advance the corrosion andwear here. Apart from that the pans looked fine.
I contacted Moss and they "investigated", leading to the conclusion, that they couldn't find any better ones. They gave me a full refund and wouldn't even have the pans returned, I could just discard them. (I didn't yet though, more of that later)
I then bought the far more expensive £141 AHA7092 "OE" "made in UK" pans, delivered to Moss by "British Motors Heritage", thinking allright, they are expensive, but what the heck, if they are spot on it's worth the expense.
I was very, very disappointed though, they were terrible all over, so unbelieveable out of line and with welding "warts" all over in addition.
I complained again, was again taken serious by Moss and had a full refund inclusive shipmenet when returning them. They appologied and admitted that they was not quite in control over their supplier or their subsuppliers.
But I was threated very well by Moss, I have to underline.
One of you guy's told me to email British Motors Heritage to warn them that they are receiving and trading very poor quality parts, personally I doubt that they in fact are made in UK, would you English gentlemen make such crap? I refuse to believe that!
I never had any feed back from them, I feel they are kind of hiding their head in the bush.
Now, where could I find some nice wishbone pans? I went to MG Parts and Service in Copenhagen, he said that he would try to find some, he has an "independent"?? supplier in the UK. I accepted, but stated that if they were no better than the aftermarket ones from Moss, which I did not discarde yet, I would not take them, he agreed. I was very excited when he called me and I could collect them. I took my aftermarket ones with to compare - only to discover they were excactly the same, we are sure they are made the same place, even the same bit out of line, I rejected them as we had agreed.
What now? I have no other options now, but to use the aftermarket's I have from Moss, but I will cut some suitable leather rings in stead of the corks.
And yes the were allso full of metal swarfs.
Will I pay Moss once again, if I use the ones I have now - no I will not! I have had so much troubles and work with the parts delivered from them, so I take it as charge for that - with no bad consciense what so ever !
I guess finding some decent wishbone pans is a matter of luck. Maybe you could find two decent ones out of hundred, I hope you found those two.
Jan
Jan Kruber

Jan,
Your ideal would be to have a reliable person who knows what to look for to call in person at one or other of the suppliers in the UK to inspect what they have to offer before buying and then sending on to you. I would gladly offer only none of the suppliers are anywhere near me and I am as reliant as you are in getting stuff by mail order.

I bought a pair of wishbones from Sussex Classic Cars last year, and although they were the cheaper offering, they were perfectly acceptable and well made. It does seem that these parts come in to all the retailers in the UK as batches, very likely from a single manufacturere, but that their quality varies from one production run to the next.
GuyW

C Madge

Can we see a pic of the underside of your new wishbones, please?
Dave O'Neill 2

Guy
Thank's for the offer. I'm very critical with my parts. It might very well be so, that the ones that I will use now are of a decent quality in other's eyes....
It's hard to be a millimeter facist :-) :-)
Jan
Jan Kruber

Dave O’Neil
Pic of the undersides


C MADGE

And another


C MADGE

Difficult to tell from the images with the angles not being square on but to me the 2nd photo definitely looks like the inner webs are an uneven distance from the drain hole in the centre.
David Billington

David you are right, both new ones are like that, and my old ones too.



C MADGE

C Madge,

From the photo your new ones have the bushes MIG welded but the older pair would seem to be brazed as the OE ones were. Your older ones don't appear as skewed as the new ones appear to be. When I measured my old OE wishbones those reinforcements appeared to be bang on centre near as damn it so this would appear to be a more modern problem.
David Billington

Although the webs being skewed is not right, l don't see that a slight variation there actually matters. It may also cause the fulcrum pin to be skewed a little and that in turn will alter the kingpin about its vertical axis. But as both the hub carrier and the top trunion pivot freely around the kingpin, a few degrees shouldn't make any difference. But l am only allowing a small variation here, and only if the fulcrum pin remains level in its horizontal plane.

The other effect is distortion of the flanged supports either side of the kingpin as they must be flat and parallel to properly align the cork seals. These edges do seem to be poorly aligned far too often.


GuyW

I'm not going to boast about my garage carpet ever again
Nick and Cherry Scoop

The other original wishbone is just as bad /good, see pic.

I wish that was my garage carpet, it’s the rug in the living room. Just don’t tell the girlfriend!


C MADGE

I also took advantage of the Moss discount offer and bought a pair of new wishbones. The bushes, as mentioned above are welded rather than brazed, but are correct in all respects.

As Gary advised, I dry fitted them and they come up spot on at the top trunnion/shock absorber interface.
So, all round, a good result with a decent saving.

Now, if I could just find some decent front shock absorbers..................

Bernie.
b higginson

If your looking for perfection it might be time to drop a dime to JHL, or is it JOB.

He has some her nice upgrades worth looking into... there not cheap but quality has it's price

Prop
1 Paper

Prop, it is JLH Morris Minors, but I do not think he makes wishbones for midgets.
Trevor Jessie

Whatever happened to the "King" wishbone business. Did somebody go back into production?
I seriously offered to buy the business when it was available about five years ago but Mr King wanted someone local to him and apparently found someone.

I'd still be interested if it's available.
Clive Berry

There certainly is a need for them now.
G Lazarus

Clive,
there's a fairly recent thread, or more likely posts, on this. IIRC the posts mentioned that a lot of space was needed for the business (the machinery?). Have an Archive search.
Nigel Atkins

My ability to have any success with the archive search facility is zero!

If it is a viable prospect then the required space can be found as an add-on to current business interests.
Clive Berry

I think it was more a case that the amount that he wanted for the business and tooling made it unviable.
G Lazarus

The business is still registered but effectively dormant and has been for some years. If it isn't rescued then we will all be stuck with parts of dubious quality.

Oh how I hate poor quality products. Making rubbish takes almost as much effort as making good stuff!

I gave up owning Land Rovers because it was a lottery when it came to parts. Some were OK but most of the repro stuff was diabolical. Sadly I think MGOC, Moss and others all decided to go cheap rather than go quality. It's 18 years since I last had a road-worthy Midget and I'm not looking forward to buying bits for the new car as I anticipate they will be poorer quality than back then.


Clive Berry

Bernie, which wishbones did you go for from Moss that turned out to be good? Were they the cheaper aftermarket ones or the supposedly OEM BMH ones?
GuyW

Guy. They are the aftermarket ones. Exactly like the ones above, bought by C Madge.
The inner bushes are well fitted, no swarf anywhere in the outer trunnion, the pin screws in all the way smoothly but slightly stiff, as one would expect, with everything being new.

Maybe I just got lucky, or maybe Moss have changed supplier since the horror stories about misaligned trunnion bushes etc.
b higginson

Bernie,
I bought the cheaper aftermarket ones from Sussec CC last autumn, and they were accurately assembled and fine. I strongly suspect they are from the same supppliers. The faults seem to have been with a batch of the expensive OEM ones!

PS, Lawrence asked me to post the question!
GuyW

Paul Wilkins at PBW has the trunnion bushes made and can restore your wishbones providing that they are otherwise in good repair.
pbwsales@freenetname.co.uk.
I have no experience of his work to date.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Alan - interesting tip on refurbishment by PBW.

Guy - say hi to Lawreence. What project car is he working on now and is oil sucking taking his thoughts?

Did no-one seriously look at taking on manufacture of Barry King wishbones? If only I had the skill, workshop space and capital!

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Guy. Regards to Lawrence from me also.
b higginson

He'll be watching you.

Sting -like!
Or should that have been Police-like?
GuyW

ISTR several people were thought to have looked at taking on Barry King's wishbone business but the price wanted was deemed too high
David Smith

Clive,
turns out it was a previous post from David I was thinking of -

Midget and Sprite Technical Archive
Thread: Wishbone / stubaxle cork rings

Posted 27 January 2018 at 01:49:48 UK time
David Smith, Berkshire, United Kingdom

>>Correct, David B, Barry did eventually retire having tried to find a buyer for the business over a couple of years or more, so his son told me. Unfortunately nobody in the classic parts world seems to want to actually make anything, preferring to let the Chinese (and others) do the dirty work while they simply flog whatever is sent to them. The presses alone took up a double garage space, a fair sized unit would have been needed to house everything and unless you already have a barn in the country it really wouldn't cost in at an acceptable level I suspect.<<

Let me know when you've made the first successful batch please. :)
Nigel Atkins

Mine was a serious enquiry - I'm in the suspension business and had an near empty workshop. We didn't get to the stage of talking money. I was basically told I was too far from him and he'd found somebody much closer. The window of opportunity might now have gone to resurrect the project however, I'm still interested.
Clive Berry

does anyone know Ashley Hinton well enough to ask him if he bought it?
David Smith

Regards to Lawrence from me too, Guy. I dread to think of him reading my stupid questions.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

I don't know Ashley Hinton but I've sent an email asking.

He's in the business of manufacturing and direct selling so I'd think he'd want to advertise the fact as soon as he could to get sales if he has bought or buying the set up.
Nigel Atkins

Guy,
please say "hi" to L ('ell) from me too as I've lost all my email addresses (not that I kept too many) after the failings of a computer program (and they're operating car systems and driving the vehicles too, what could possibly go wrong(?)). :)
Nigel Atkins

Some old threads on BK and other wishbones:
http://mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/new-improved-wishbones-2013113022564524678.htm

http://www.mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/modified-wishbone-bushes-and-fulcrum-pin-201306201242381731.htm (note a comment at the end on box version)

http://mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/wishbones-201601281159139931.htm
M Wood

Just as a matter of interest. Looking through the first of the links, Mike posted above, from 2013, it mentions that the Barry King wishbones have the fulcrum bushes welded rather than brazed. So, apart from not being able to recon them, (I should live so long😊), I feel that if welding was good enough for BK, it's good enough for me with ones I got from Moss.
b higginson

This thread was discussed between 31/03/2018 and 06/04/2018

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