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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - release bearing retaining clips

In the Ford T9 5 speed conversion kit two spring type retaining clips are included. I'm very reluctant in installing them, since I can not see what should prevent them in working themselfes loose. They are not "hooked" around anything or locked in a slot or any way.
Any experience with thoose clips?
The present graphite bearing is loskec by the standard "sheeet plate" clips.


Jan Kruber

The straight side of the clip fits in the hole in the bearing and the curved side clips over the arm into the hollow on the back - it will be secure.
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris,
now I know why I couldn't figure it out: there are no hollow on the back. It's just smooth. I could dremel some hollows or I could use the old plate locking clips. What would be the better option of those two, you think?
Jan
Jan Kruber

Jan,
I don't know but the clips might depend on which releasing bearing you have, the later clips were different.

Below is a photo showing clips fitted - and also shows a broken fork arm which can happen if you get the kit from and have it installed by the wrong "specialist experts".


Nigel Atkins

Jan,
with this photo you can see the hole in the centre of the bearing arm(s) - and different bearing heights.


Nigel Atkins

Does the T9 installation still involve cutting the guide tube off from around the input shaft? That used to give rise to release bearing rattles and wear problems, but maybe the newer arrangements retain the guide tube? If not, then Alan Anstead has good advice on improoving the release bearing arrangement for the T9.
Or use a concentric type slave arrangement for the clutch release.
GuyW

Guy,
if you're referring to mine then it depends whether the "specialist experts" supply you with their latest kit or making up a kit of whatever parts they have left in stock because they're moving site to a place a lot nearer that they told you not to go to as they're the Spridget specialist.

Mine's now had the MGA competition bearing, you see in the previous photo, fitted for over five and a half years. It doesn't give a lot of feel and has a bite point quite high up the pedal press but hasn't embarrassingly broke the arm whilst out on a run with the likes of TVR, Loti, Lambos and Fezzas who just earlier commented on how well a Spridget can go on the twisty roads.

Photo below was sent to me to show the variance on mine compared the instructions normally supplied by said "specialist experts".



Nigel Atkins

Jan,
I won't put a link to Moss at the moment for you, this shows clip 13H783 -
http://www.leacyclassics.com/13h783.html
Nigel Atkins

No, Nigel. I wasn't really referring to yours at all. But earlier versions of the T9 conversion required one to cut the nose extension off the guide tube - and that in turn gave rise to problems.

I have my own DIY concentric slave arrangement so I am no longer clear on the current methods used in such conversions.
GuyW

Sorry Guy, I can't delete the post now unfortunately but comparisons can be useful, especially when from the pinnacle of suppliers.

IIRC the subject you referred to was covered with Jan before but better to check than not (and I might have remembered wrong).
Nigel Atkins

No need for a delete Nigel, yours was very relevant, showing how the clips work. Mine, a little off topic !
GuyW

On early type 9 conversions the clutch cover necessary was a QH type because it had a larger hole in its pressure pad to allow the T9 input shaft through. BB & other covers had too small a hole. A problem arose with QH covers in that the securing ring that holds the pressure pad was swaged and could come adrift. I tack weld the two parts so that they do not come adrift.

The early kit used a stock carbon release bearing that would not fit over the input shaft sleeve so the sleeve was cut off. Early bell housings had a pivot yoke until a later slotted yoke was introduced.

My roller release bearings fit the earlier conversions with a pressure pad on the cover as they are a direct replacement for the original designated carbon release bearings dependant upon type.

QH then changed the spec of their covers deleting the pressure pad. A Peter May roller release bearing then has to be used with the input sleeve retained and a slotted yoke pivot. As the design has changed BB covers, & I expect others, can be used.

With the clips it appears that spiral wire fit 948 & 1098 carbon releases and the spring steel fit 1275 carbon releases. These fittings also hold true on the release bearings that I make. However if using an early Peter May 1275 roller they were based on a 948 casting and require the spiral clip but the rear of the yoke on a 1275 has no dimple to receive it so a dimple can be drilled. On other types it would be best to enquire of the seller what clips to be used as using a spiral clip on a release designed for a spring steel clip would allow too much sideways play.

Subsequently some used concentric releases.

Alan
Alan Anstead

My release bearings are featured on page 83 of Daniels book and I am hoping to have some on display, on the midget & Sprite Club stand, at Practical Classics Show NEC in March.
Alan Anstead

Allright, interresting informations all the way down.
I bought the conversion kit from Thomas Turner. The gearbox I orderen from First Motion, expect it here soon.
I don't hope you have negative comments about those suppliers.
Back to my question, on the image you can see my release arm, there are no groove or hollow for the retaining spring. It's furthermore situated quite far out, I'm sure it will work itselfes loose very rapid, if fitted.
To be continued in the next post....




Jan Kruber

The next picture show the roller bearing in the release arm with the steel plate retaining clips.
Shouldn't that be okay?


Jan Kruber

Jan
The last picture of the spring steel clips appears to show them holding the release correctly. The release should rotate nicely with little or no sideplay.

The earlier pic of the spirals show them not to be entering the spigot holes sufficiantly and a dimple is really needed on the back face of the yoke for the elbow of the clip to engage with.There will be sideplay as they cannot fill the gap between the release and the yoke meant for the spring steel type.

Alan
Alan Anstead

Alan,
I'm just curious, it doesn't matter now, but what do you think to the fitting of the spiral retaining clips in my photo, plus can you confirm that was a 1275 bearing (which should have had the spring clips) please.

(The bearing was changed at that point for a MGA competition bearing which has the spiral clips and I remember seeing and having them replaced last time clutch was exposed.)



Nigel Atkins

Nigel
If you look at Jan's spiral clips they sit proud either being too long or the receiving hole too shallow. The elbow on the rear leg needs a dimple to locate in.
Jan's release appears to be 1275. I held similar in my hand yesterday when engine in / out for correction of oil leak for someone.
If spirals are used where spring steels should be used then there is side play. Spring steels secure front to back but also locate sideways.
I am not familiar with MGA parts or their specs. Are they and Spridget one and the same?
Alan
Alan Anstead

Thanks Alan.

I saw Jan's spiral clips were sticking out and I wondered if you thought the spiral clips were seated enough in my photo not that it matters as I think Id sooner sell the car in bits than have to attend to the clutch again.

Ive noted that the replacement arms are the same number (22G 168) for 1098 and 1275 and that in the factory parts catalogue both also use the same spring type retainer (13H 783).

Ive never seen the replacement arms so dont know if they have a grove, as you can guess the arm in the photo was replaced (with 22G 168).

The MGA uses the spiral clip (7H 3048), Ive just checked and can remember checking when I ordered as supposedly mine only had one when the gearbox was last out (perhaps the other fell off or the mechanic at the time lost it as you know I dont have much luck with professionals).

I dont know if the MGA arms have a groove or shaped to hold the spiral spring or if its under slight tension to hold it.

I assumed (I know dangerous) that the photo taken of mine was still of the way it was installed by the specialist experts on box conversion with spiral clips on that arm and with existing 1275 bearing (rather than mocked up with spiral clips and MGA competition bearing). At least three different mechanics have seen and worked on the gearbox/clutch, two at mg specialist companies, one more than once, so youd have thought someone would notice if the wrong parts where on or perhaps not!
Nigel Atkins

Nigel

We must wean you off your handbooks and manuals.
Upgrades, standardisation, modification and bodging with the passage of 60 years has altered many a Spridget. Whilst basic engineering principles often hold true innovation, workshop practise, etc has moved on.

Each engine size of Spridget has its own clutch, Yoke, and release. The clutches are different although a couple of parts are interchangeable. The yokes are different for ALL. The releases are different. Now throw into the pan replacement parts allegedly OE but far from it.

It is now a case of looking at what you have been supplied and trying to fit the correct part for the application. The roller release that you have being a modern upgrade may be too wide for the spring steel clips so spiral clips have been used. They work. Tuesdays car has had them several years with no problems. I must have fitted them originally when converting the car to T9.
They would just be that better fit if there was a dimple drilled into the rear of the yoke to accept the knee of the spiral leg and perhaps the hole in the yoke lengthened a tad or that leg shaved so that the spiral sat nearer the yoke. Perhaps I am being fussy?

Alan
Alan Anstead

Alan,
thanks for your reply. I wasn't just going on books I looked at what's supposed to be available on various on-line sites. My mind had it that all were different originally but as you say you have to go on what you've got and what's available. I suspect I know more about bodges than most having experienced so many on various classics so I can't imagine all the people I've paid well to work on my Midget bothering to fit what's not already there whether it's best or not.

It was just the case of seeing Jan's spiral clips that reminded me that mine supposedly only had one clip fitted at one point that made me wonder now if it wasn't fitted, it fell out or the person told me it wasn't there simply because he'd knocked it out and lost it.

After many problems and much money the clutch seems to be working fine so as long as it stays that way I don't care about it as plenty of other small annoying things crop up on the car to diminish the correct driving to working on the car ratio.

I don't think it's being too fussy expecting things to work, be nice if they worked well or worked all the time, perhaps I'm a dreamer. :)
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 30/01/2018 and 01/02/2018

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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