MG-Cars.net

Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Radiator - F/line / Serck / Radtec / 1500?

As per title, I have been looking at the packaging implications of trying to fit an improved radiator to my conversion.

Off the shelf there seems to be:

Frontline
Radtec
Serck
1500cc std?

I only list the 1500cc rad as I don't know if it's dimensions are greater than the 1275cc item?

Or if the Frontline is a Radtec / Serck item or bespoke?

Has anyone fitted one of these in an engine conversion which generates significantly more hp than standard?

Are they larger in terms of surface area / core thickness / fins per inch?

Any information gladly recieved

Cheers

Spencer

S Deakin

Why??
My old style vertical flow rad keeps my 1380 cool.
Just make sure it and the pump and the waterways are in tip top shape
Onno Könemann

Why?

Do you have 140 - 180 hp?

I am asking people what they have?

Your 1380 delivers 100 - 110 hp Max?

Heat rejection ( rad efficiency / size) is proportional to energy input...

Thats WHY?...

My water pump is OEM and brand new

My block and head are acid dipped, so waterways are as per new...

Cheers
S Deakin

130 bhp race engines will run OK on standard rad; the K series is far more efficient than the A series so I would expect it to convert more energy into power not heat.
David Smith

Hi David,

Thank you for your response

I probably should have been clearer in my definitions

My intended use is as a road engine

Race engines don't have to sit at spaghetti junction for 20 mins plus and still provide adequate cooling

Would a genuine 130 hp A series engine (In reality there are few REAL 130 hp 'A series' engines?) really sit in traffic?

Cheers
S Deakin

Spencer,
IF I was ever to buy FL stuff again I'd get it from another supplier that gives full warranty

from what I've read here the 1500 rad only just keeps up with the stock engine! :)

and why are you stopping at 140-180 ?

anyone got a VTEC in their Spridget?

it's all about power to weight ratio - I'm going on a diet to get my figures down and the cars' up :)
Nigel At

Hi Nigel,

Thank you for your response

You clearly have had FL issues as regards warranty...

Sadly power to weight ratio has nothing to do with genuine heat rejection or any 'air to water' cooling system as per a std road car system.

Has anyone fitted a FL rad or any of the other systems mentioned?

Cheers

P.S. I stop at at 140 - 180 hp as that is what an XE can realistically deliver with the money I intend to spend

Cheers again...
S Deakin

I'm sure others will be along to give you the answers until then -

Simon if only it was just warranty issues

not allowed to say much on a forum

quite rightly

I could be a bad customer with sour grapes - but I'm not, well not a bad customer quite the opposite I'm too good for my own good

yeap I'know a bit about cooling as I've cleaned, flushed, back flushed, shaked, replaced components and coolant a few times

my present and last cars coolants have been emptied and refilled probably 9 or 10 times in 5 years, don't ask

weight - stress - heat

power by-product of heat

extra cooling because of extra heat

how many Kw is 140-180 :)

I do know rads are really the core, or double core, bits with connector/tank each end and can be made up quite easily by manufacturers as many things apart from cars use rads of various sizes, shapes and designs - so it might be less expensive and more direct to go to one of these manufacturers, especially if you know what ends you want

also you could look at relief air in and out - Prop will have designs :)

you could also look at increased cooling of the other coolant - oil

cheers

Nigel At

Hello Spencer,
I have built a 1.8 k series midget. I put it on the road in March 2010 and since then have driven over 10,000 miles in it. I would hazard a guess that there aren't many who do or have done as many miles in 18 months or so in their converted 1.8 k series cars. I may be wrong. These miles have included driving in the south of France with temps of 35-40 degrees. It will be at Stowe on the 15th. I do not have an alluminium rad although I would have liked one. The ones you refer to were just too costly for me. Instead I used a standard 1500 rad and had it recored by a local rad company. They put in a three row core which made the rad some 10mm deeper (front to back). The rad has worked faultlessly and keeps the engine at the correct temp. Clearly in stationary traffic the electric fan will kick in (Emerald being used).
The 1500 rad and the 1275 rad are the same size but the outlets/inlets are different. With the 1500 I had to relocate one of the outlets so as to line up with the coolant rail.
Neil
Neil K

there a fully road tested example

as per my previous post

. . . or triple core :)

or more :)

poetry!

I think I saw on a thread (probably Deborah's) that a wider Triumph rad will also fit a Spridget, you could treble core that

if you're making space you could have a wider rad made and select the ends to suit your inlet and outlet, plastic now
Nigel At

Hi Neil.

Thank you, thats what I want to hear...

Exactly what people have done..

Not what they surmise...

Do you know the difference in inlet / outlet size of a 1500 compared with 1275cc?

Cheers
S Deakin

Spencer, I believe they are both equivalent to 30/32mm diameter. When I converted my '64 Midget I could have used a 1275 rad. I had a spare one but decided to go with a 1500. My reason was simply that the 1500 rad had an outlet pipe (on the offside of the car) for a header tank. My header tank is close to the pedal box. The bottom hose outlets on the 1275 and 1500 are both in the same place. The top hose on a 1500 exits at the sde of the rad (nearside) and the 1275 exits towards the engine (nearside). That's why I relocated the outlet on my 1500 so as to be the same as the 1275 so I could connect to the coolant rail on the K series engine.
The rad company told me that the 3 row core would provide approx 30% more cooling efficiency. I didn't question it. They've been in business years and years. They carry out countless conversions for older cars, mainly those being used oin competitive events, historic rallying/racing etc. They charged me £120 for the work. That was about 2 years ago now.
It's worked for me.
Neil


Neil K

Spencer that is what the fan is for - race engines don't have fans
;-)
David Smith

Neil

some relly nice looking work there

and you use the car

well done all round
Nigel At

Neil,

Thanks for the info on the 1275 - 1500cc rad differences but my 1275cc rad is 25.4mm inlet and outlet. Do you know if your 1500cc rad is 30 - 32mm then?

David,

I think your probably right as far as MG Midget racing goes they don't run fans (I have no direct experience of them) Strangely most of the race / rally cars I have worked with for the last decade or so have had fans fitted to them - mainly closed cars not single seaters.

Nigel,

I am not sure I understand the following:

also you could look at relief air in and out - Prop will have designs :)

Also, yes a wider rad could be made, which is why I was asking if anyone knew if any of the rads mentioned where already wider than std (obviously would require inlet duct revisions) as a bespoke rad is likely to be even more expensive than those listed.

Cheers

Spencer
S Deakin

Sorry Spencer you obviously missed Prop's ‘design’ threads – basically I mean holes to let cooling air in and other holes to hot air out, vents

The wider radiator I mentioned was a suggestion from Deborah for a 1500 so may not be enough for you and need treble coring I think it was from a Triumph saloon, best you contact Deborah for conformation

Deborah Evans, Priestess Race Engines, Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom, pr.engines@tiscali.co.uk

As the radiator will need to be altered it would mean just using the ends

Rather than guessing that a custom radiator will be more expensive or hunting round for an alternative you could contact a radiator manufacturer or repairer and get their opinion and suggestions of alternative, if you have photos or diagrams of the rads you are considering the manufacturers and repairs may well recognise it or the components
cheers
Nigel At

It is common practice to replace the radiator on modified race Midgets. The MG Metro Turbo radiator was a common modification a few years back - I believe that a aluminium VW Polo radiator is now the suggested replacement... Might be worth a post on the technical page of the Midget challenge website.

I have a thick core crossflow rad on my car with a Caterham electric fan for sitting in the collecting area/on the line (perfectly adequate cooling, 1380 with a genuine 130bhp on Swifty's dyno..). Its scheduled for renewal before the car comes back out next year because it weighs a flippin ton...
James Bilsland

Hi Spencer,

The inlet/outlet on the stock 1500 radiator are 30-32mm. This was on a new rad from MGBHive.

Richard
r parker

Nigel,

I have had a few custom radiators made all of which (when pro rata for size) were a good deal more expensive than the price of those aluminium items listed, but no I haven't got a specific quote for this application but it will add about a third to the price, I would say nearer to £400 without VAT as opposed to £300 for the off the shelf items.

I have already spoken to Radtec as well and was a little suspicious that everything they make is 40% better than std, but a very friendly chap all the same, so trying to keep my "guessing" to a minimum.

Which is why I am asking for anyone who has used the rads I have listed, the fact that Neil uses a recored (3 core) rad succesfully is a good sign that a modest improvement over standard may work. But it does seem at odds with your comment that a std 1500cc rad only just cools the std car.

Over the years I have spoken to a few recoring companies and those who make aluminium rads, sadly few of them understood basic thermodynamic terms let alone provide any technical data about the cores they use.

I am simply asking if anyone has experience of the rads listed and will use that information along with any other data / information I have found.

James,

Thank you, as you say there doesn't seem a strong argument against having a fan for most applications even most forms of racing. 130 hp is sood going, but from my Miglia contacts I know Swifty is the place to get it ;)

Richard,

Thanks, that clears that up

Cheers

Spencer


S Deakin

Spencer,
My 1500 rad inlet and outlet are definately 30-32mm.
I have just measured a spare 1275 rad and measured the bottom outlet as 25.5mm and the top outlet as 24.5mm. Please feel free to email me if you wish on:
pendinedash at hotmail dot co dot uk
Neil
Neil K

Spencer I wasn't only thinking of aluminium

and possibly my mate's dealings have been 'within the trade' as he know people from years ago and is able to go in and get the items done

face to face dealings, which you've probably already covered

it was Deborah and possibly someone else who said the 1500 rad was only just up to the job - I wouldn't know I've never had a 1500

sorry about putting things badly I've been rushing my typing even more than usual today and seem to be upset everyone

cheers
Nigel At

Spencer
When you just ask the question without a frame of reference i will always assume a std reference frame!
That made me ask why?

It might be more intresting to look at the normal use of the engine and what size rad is being used.
Since the XE in a midget has not been done before and the demands might differ from the K
Onno Könemann

My understanding was that it was essentially the underbonnet cooling in general that was barely enough for the 1500 due to layout change and the big bumpers significantly reducing airflow, rather than a specific problem with the rad itself.

Just my €0.02

OSM.
OrangeSpyderMan

Hi Onno,

Thanks for your reply

Yes I have compared the relative area of the radiators

The std 1275 MG midget has approx 0.102 m^2
The Calibra XE donor vehicle was 0.229 m^2

The core thickness of the Calibra was slightly less than the Midget but this shows an area of more than double for the original XE equipped vehicle hence my search for some feedback / data

Cheers

Spencer
S Deakin

I've got a vertical Radtech rad which works very well with the K series. looks nice too.
Tim Dalton

Spencer
Iirc the rad in the calibra is hidden behind bumpers etc and has way less direct airflow.
So a midget rad might just do the trick.
And in my experiance a fan is enough to keep it cool in traffic if the rad is good enough to cool at speed
Onno Könemann

This thread was discussed between 07/08/2011 and 09/08/2011

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.