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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Noise advice

On start up first thing in the morning my 1500 'rumbles' a bit after starting. (gone on first touch of acc before coming out of garage). No 'rumbling' happens after that and during the rest of the day its fine each time I start it unless it has stood for a long time (hours).

I have read the archive and checked all the rumbles I can find that are in there :-) and think that the problem is that first thing the oil filter is empty so it takes time to fill the filter before the oil circulates in the rest of the engine.

Now this is not a good thing so looking to see: -
Is this a reasonable idea or has anyone got any other ideas that may explain it?
If it is a reasonable idea where do the rest of you get better filters with non return valves in for the 1500?

Its definitely not an engine speed, or road speed, or transmission speed, related rumble. In fact some of you would say its no rumble at all. (just a sort of bit noisy). But it definitely goes away after a few revolutions like the 'tappety noise on start up' which are a few too many revolutions for me now the engine is running nicely.
Dave Squire (1500)

I'd turn the starter without the choke, so the engine doesn't fire, until the oil pressure reaches 50+ psi (or a couple of secs after the warning light goes out).

Normally not needed for the A-Series and KSeries, but I use this technique after changing oil and filter, too (with the plugs out). I hate the idea of air being pumped through to the shell bearings...

A
Anthony Cutler

I agree

Hook up A hidden kill switch, acIivate It and turn the engine over about 15-30 sec to get the oil pressure built up and oil into the system.then start the car

The advantage of a hidden kill switch... Is anti theft while in walmart

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Yup, Prop's advice is good.

15 years ago when I bought my 1500, it made the noise you refer to on the morning after I got it home and I thought "here we go, bearings gone, crank oval, I have been sold a lemon etc etc", but as in your case after starting the noise went and the pressures were absolutely nominal under all conditions, so I thought it had to be oil drain back from a filter, without an anti drain back valve.
Since then I have tried a remote filter, hanging vertically, 5/8 thread and 3/4 thread filters all supposedly with anti drain back valves and I have changed all the crank bearing shells....and the start up rattle is still there.

So I have done what Prop says: wired up a switch to kill the ignition until, in my case I count to 5 seconds, the engine has turned over enough to get the oil moving, and then when it has started I keep the revs to a minimum until the gauge has a good reading.

Doing that, I no longer hear a rattle.

Just keeping the choke in is not enough as I have an electric fuel pump and electronic ignition so the darn engine tries to start every time I try to start it choke or no choke. So it kicks the starter pinion out and I cant keep turning it over, hence the need to kill the ignition temporarily.

To try it yourself, just pull the main HT lead out of the coil or distributor before the first start of the day, turn the engine over for say 5 seconds, put the HT lead back and then start it, keeping the revs down.

The rattle should be hardly apparent, if at all.
JB Anderson

An easy kill switch is to take an additional wire from the coil supply terminal to earth via a hidden switch. You can then operate the starter on the key as normal, counting to 5 or 10 and then flick the kill switch off. The other thing this does on the 1500 having a mechanical pump, is to prime the carbs so that it then fires immediately.
Guy W

Dave,
what filter have you got fitted now that you don't think has an anti-drain as these a couple of recent thread on oil filters and they cross reference to midget 1500

if you can't find them then put your filter make and model number up here and I'll go down there with Samantha
Nigel Atkins

Thanks everyone, kill switch it is. (It started second turn this morning without choke or anything but I didn't rev it and it sounds better). Have switch and so long as it cools down soon I will fit it.
Filter is GFE150 Classic Gold which I must admit kept the oil very clean for the first 1000 miles or so. Am now up to 2500 miles so will be oil changing soon.
Dave Squire (1500)

if you've not already fitted the kill switch here a simple idea I've stolen that I would try - costs nothing to try and if it works it saves intrusive work and again costs nothing –
'When you start the car , turn it over briefly before pulling the choke out this will help the oil circulate before start up'
Nigel Atkins

Trouble is the car starts pretty much first time without the choke this weather Nigel. Switch as good as fitted anyway just trying to work out where to put it in the not so planned scheme of things. It works just fine.
Dave Squire (1500)

When new, did all the MG/Triumph 1500 engines rattle because BMC didn't fit drain down valves in the standard filters? I think that would have cause a re-call wouldn't it?

Do you have oil pressure immediately?

In order to rumble, the journals/bearings must be pretty empty of oil too. Normally they're close enough to hold oil until the pressure's built up, but if they're worn a little too much, they will drain, and need a few revs to fill again, and whilst that happens, metal to metal is making it worse.

Sounds to me as if, even if there is an oil drain problem, there may be a worn crank/bearing problem too. :(



Lawrence Slater

in that case Dave if you normally need to rest your foot on the accelerator a little to get it started then don't and you'd have the same effect

my engine quite soon get cold even in this weather, first start of the day I might be able to start the car without choke but with my foot on the accelerator but it will need a bit of choke to keep it running
Nigel Atkins

Hi Lawrence, I think that it is the oil at start up, its only first thing when the car has not been used for hours. And its a sort of rumbly, rattley, rough start up noise that goes away fairly quickly and never happens while going along.

Having said that I agree that it all needs checking and I will be doing that when I can get the engine out to fix the rear oil seal leak.

And that will be done when the other 1500 engine I have has been put on a stand, checked over, serviced and started and tested and is ready to go in the car. (I just need to make the stand and am wondering how to hold up the back of the engine with no gear box attached).
Dave Squire (1500)

Hi Dave, I agree it's the oil at start-up. But the bearing should never be empty, so I think you have some wear to attend to.

Do you already have an engine stand? If not, don't buy one, it's not essential, just a luxury. But if you do buy one or already have one, you bolt the stand to the rear of the engine. There's a few pics in the archives from last year I think.

Lawrence Slater

Try this.
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/ces-500a-engine-stand
Lawrence Slater

Dave,
if you do don't forget that JT vid on enlarging the oil way
Nigel Atkins

I am making one Lawrence. have an ex engineering 4 wheel HD tray type trolley. Have lots of heavy unistrut and large unistrut bends and fittings so will bolt together to right shape then weld up. I will need to remove engine back plates for rear oil seal so interesting that its usually bolted at the back. Will have to mount without back plate then.

Have 1500 go faster engine guide and it says about oil ways etc Nigel. That's the plan. 110 plus HP without too much cost, just lots of work, fettling, and getting it right.

That is what I would like to do to the existing if the spare goes all right and drops in.
Dave Squire (1500)

110 hp that should be interesting Dave, are you building it out of your HG budget :)
Nigel Atkins

W00 it used to do that rumble / clatter on start up. I put in a kill switch and would turn it over to the count of 5 before flicking the switch to fire it up. Not terribly sure it made that much difference. I also used to replace the main bearings and the crank thrust washers every 25,000, as a service item, but it still did it.Did around 85,000 in as far as I recall.

Guy W

Try heavier oil, FWIW I use 20w60, no rattle, oil pressure steady at 80psi@3500. I don't use the original filter have modified the oil cooler adaptor to take one the same as the daily driver Z456 from memory.HTH
R W Bowers

Dave

Just a thought...if your building a 110 hp race engine, are you sure you want to stay with a stock gearbox with a low rating of around 80 hp

Id rethink a ford 5 speed type 9 setup...that way you can hook that up to the rear side of the engine when you do your new 110 hp engine break in and tune in...on the bench

If you dont.have the cash, maybe the BMW getreg 5 speed, I havent heard of it on the triumph lump but if its working on a 1275 ... then why not on a 1500

Im just not sure the triumph gear box is up to the challange of that many ponnies...the 1st time it blows up, you slap yourself.and say, "I could have had a 5'speed"

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop - the Midget is NOT set up with the triumph gearbox - which would have been ok, but, like everything else - they picked something that wasn't and most of them have the marina gearbox!!! The type 9 is the easiest as most of the bellhousing etc is off the shelf available, but it's by no means the only one.

However, you will need not only a stronger gearbox, but don't forget your suspension as well :)

Yes, it's cheap and easy to get 110+bhp out of the triumph engine - the cost, as ever, is in making the car capable of handling it :)
Rachel Henderson

Hi Rachel, Any suggestions other than the now relatively expensive type9?

Have had quick looks at the MX5 box which is the next step to the type9, and stronger, however am interested in other suggestions as well at this point.

Not worried about working hard to get it done, need to keep costs down and the job relatively simple, hence the 1500 and work on it rather than a fuel injected cpu controlled whatever (or in other words a mazda donor motor).

Thanks in advance, Dave.
Dave Squire (1500)

There are still cheaper ones around - especially if you find someone who got a lighter option (they are quite heavy!!!!!) I, for example, bought when I got offered one quite cheap, but wasn't keen on it then and still am not keen on it, so - and always have other parts to fund!

Datsun (also expensive), Toyota are the most obvious ones - but, depending on your real budget, and please don't take this the wrong way, but, it does have to be fully worked out before embarking down this - you may yet be better to work out the cost of the mazda donor vehicle, as that will give you everything you want. Before you spend any money, consider fully all the cost implications and then decide which option is better. The comment I flippantly made earlier about going for more is flippant to make, but, in all honestly, unless you are fully committed to that particular engine, then you can get alot more for your money using another option.

Rachel Henderson

Despite rising costs, the T9 gearbox is still likely to be the commonest (therefore cheapest?) around in the UK. Fitted to Sierras and to Transit vans (though ratios are not as good) so they still turn up in scrapyards. When I did my T9 conversion a typical price was just £40 (mine cost £20!) My total T9 conversion cost just on £220 but that was more than 10 years ago and I made much of the kit myself.

Datsun 5 speeds are favoured for the A series conversions and are very easy to because they were made to mate to a Datsun engine which was a direct copy of the A series. But they are virtually unobtainable in the UK as very few Datsuns were fitted with the (optional extra) 5 speed box for the UK market.

Looking to future availability of supplies in the UK, the BMW or the MX5 look like the best bets at the moment, but only if you cannot find a T9
Guy W

Here's a cheap type 9, though bidding not started yet!
http://tinyurl.com/q269ybh

Several others on e-bay at the moment at £70 to £150
Guy W

LOL - I must have been too subtle - I have one that I would be willing to part with for the price I paid for it (which is the average of those two figures!) - but it's just the straight gearbox - not the bellhousing - if you are wanting it!

rachel-macb at hotmail dot co dot uk
Rachel Henderson

Sorry Rach!
I should have added, the £70 still has 6 days to go on the auction!

One facility that I do use on e-bay is the search, with the check box ticked for "completed Sales". It then comes up with items at their final selling price so gives a good guide at any one time as to what sort of price to expect to sell, or to buy at.
Guy W

I have to say dave,

If your open to a differant engine set up, id really look into the suzuki swift engine with suzuki sameri 5 speed transmission...I want to say the chevy geo metro is the same as the suzuki swift....the transmission is a 5 speed from the sameri and is a direct plug and play with no modification work or very little and will fit the tranny tunnel with the same ease as a ford type 9 five speed

This set up was made for other cars as well and are very common in the scrapers

They are built to be indistructable, are not far off of your 110 hp goal in factory stock form, and can fit with decent mechanical abilities. And there are a number of aftermarket parts... I think you can ither do fuel injection or carbs, and dissy vs crank trigger ignition systems

I cant remember the displacment.. 1.3L to 1.6L I know...plus the car has an aluminum radiator that has been adapted to the midget and I think also has an electric fan set up

I think its worth your time to look into it



Any...if I.was going to ditch the NOW expensive BMC engine set up, this it the way id go...cheap, simple, and lots of power and durability....oh, and no darn oil spotting

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Thanks rach,

I wasnt aware the gear box for the 1500 was the marina gear box

Of course if you wanted to stay with in the BMC family, there is the triumph spitfire box with an electric 5th gear. But durability would be the issue

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

LOL Guy - just was hoping that it wasn't lost too much in there ;)

Prop - coz the spitfire box is for the same engine - better to replace it with a GT6 one IF you can get it - and stick OD on 2nd as well as 3rd and 4th - and you have a much better range .... good for up to well over what is being built!

However, they are not really easy to find, so better to stick with something more modern!!!!!
Rachel Henderson

Could be it's a different one though in the States Prop - I wouldn't know :(
Rachel Henderson

Thanks rach

GT6....thats good to know

Good thing the GT6 bbs forum on this site is so popular and active....LOL, hahaha

http://www.british-cars.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=trbbs&access=&mode=tlist&subject=1004

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

HA - but the triumph guys go elsewhere ;)
Rachel Henderson

My 1500 box was the same as the overdrive one that I later swapped it for - which was out of a Spitfire IIRC. I remember driving down to Milton Keynes and back from Cumbria, after work one evening to collect it. £60 and it turned out to be a reconditioned one, complete with the rare to find gearstick switch. That was in about 1992.

The overdrive would actually work on all 4 gears if one wanted it to. But it comes fitted with a blocking plate which prevents it working in 1st and 2nd. The stresses with the clutchless mechanism would be too great for the bigger percentage rev changes that one gets between the lower gears, which would quickly break something expensive!
Guy W

Don't pay too much for a T9 unless it's guaranteed not to need a rebuild.

The ebay box Guy posted would be a bargain if it goes at that price, and the seller has a 100% feedback rating so I reckon it would be worth a punt.
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 26/07/2013 and 29/07/2013

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.