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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - New project

Just as I thought I would be hanging up my overalls and declining all new work, I have been persuaded to recommission a Frogeye that has been sitting for the last 25 years with unspecified engine damage. After building a Heritage shell MkIII midget a few years ago, I am familiar with mainstream Midget stuff, but will be inserting the rear spring hangers VERY carefully before I finally say JA or NEIN.
From the photos so far, and the fact that it was a driving car before bring stored inside (the last 12 months under a tarpulin outside) I am hopeful that it is not a basket case - to be a driver under the Swiss MOT regime the rust should not have progressed too far at the point to was laid up.
As I price the parts, am I correct in assuming that a 948cc engine from a Minor is essentially the same beast and also that a 1098 gearbox can be fitted to a 948cc engine ?
Dominic Clancy

Dominic

Sounds like fun.

What condition is the 948 engine? Does it have its orginal 1 1/8 inch carbs?

What changes are allowed in Switzerland?

If an engine swap is OK, go 1275 engine and gearbox. If you want originality 948 engine and a Frogeye one at that (it is different from the Minor engine). Fit later front disc brakes (and I would go for 3/4 inch dual master cylinder with 3/4 inch 1098 Minor rear brake cylinders).

1100 gearbox is a possible swap onto a Frogeye 948 engine. You can if you want get a smoothcase (Frogeye) gearbox converted with 1100 internals by Heathrow Transmissions.

Terry Horler's book is a useful source.

Minor engine is not advisable in terms of performance and value of the car. Note the prices of the cars is high, including attracting Baby Boomers who always wanted one/had one when they were young and the cars were not so pricey and run on a shoestring but now have the funds to buy a good one at high market prices.

Wise heads will be along shortly.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

The basic 948 engines are similar. The Frog would have a slightly different camshaft and cylinder head - easily changed - and certainly the later ones would have 3 cam bearings, whereas the Minor only had one on the front journal.

Some info here about gearbox/clutch interchangeability

https://www.gerardsgarage.com/Garage/Tech/TO_Bearings/tobearings.htm
Dave O'Neill 2

The goal is to resurrect it for as little work (and money) as possible.....

It will obviously need a full brake system replacement, and probably a gearbox rebuild / replacement while the engine is being looked at. But what is fitted engine wise will be the same as what is now installed, I have to go inspect next week! Gearbox will be whatever the best / most cost effective solution is - the owner is on a tight budget.

Dominic Clancy

Useful info: http://www.mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/gearbox-differences-2017101920423826611.htm

https://www.mmoc.org.uk/Messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=62695

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Surely it depends on how good the body now is? If it needs floor work, A pillars, sills and rear spring boxes you're obviously into much more expense.
Bill Bretherton

Dominic, (Mike),
there might have been a (couple?) of alterations/updates to Richard's database table since 2017, I've no idea what but I *think* there was a change more recently.

Nigel Atkins

Bill,
Dominic is used to doing cars up in Switzerland, he's usually in the MGA section of the BBS.

I can see your point though as tight budget and a car not used for at least 25 years aren't good companions but I suppose it depends on whether it just has to pass a Swiss MoT or then actually be used and at what level of use.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
Yes, I realise Dominic knows what he's doing but I just thought the whole project (any old car project really) must be dependent on the bodywork condition as a starting point.
Bill Bretherton

Fair enough Bill, I took that as a given as Dominic has it as a recommission job (how little or not those can be) and given Swiss requirements.
Nigel Atkins

If it needs floors and spring boxes I shall be declining the work. The owner wants it done by the spring, which is only possible if it doesn't need welding.
Dominic Clancy

Dominic.
The official way to fit a later ribcase gearbox to a 948 engine is to fit the later thick engine backplate and an early Morris Minor 1098 flywheel. The Morris Minor larger clutch and plate are then fitted instead of the 948 6.25" Frogeye plate and cover.
You may find a 1098 Morris Minor clutch cover and plate substantially cheaper at a Morris Minor supplier.
The later thicker backplate will call for some filing of the oil pump body to fit as its recess is not quite concentric to the hole in the later backplate.
Alan Anstead

I do wonder why you think the gearbox needs replacement?
Brakes could be working with just some cups.
If it is really a budget build then don’t mess with stuff that does not need to be messed with.
It usually is the cheapest to stay bog std and just fix what is needed.

You say it went in to hibernation with engine damage?
Then fix that 948 before messing with other stuff.
Fitting a bigger motor is almost never the cheapest option
O K

Onno makes some excellent points. Also if the shell is OK it could produce a nice original looking car which would be fun to drive, keeping on top of repairs and maintenance and learning about the car. Reconditioning and reusing orginal parts.

Later if they wanted to upgrade the car, and as running it and getting used to it and enjorying it as is they would have a clear idea if they wished to and to what extent and could slowly they could do as budget and parts arise (an Austin A40 front drum brake upgrade?).

Plus as a bonus would always be desirable to others whether they wanted a normal running car, one to do an over the top restoration on or someone who wants to upgrade the drive train.

I do realise your question does not suggest major upgrades - I am arguing against my first post suggestion of going 1275!

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Well I was supposed to go and look at the car today, but it turned up on a trailer with the assumption the deal was on! It is a January 1960 registered car, originally registered in Switzerland, and was with the last owner since being laid up in 1981. He can't remember what was wrong with it. It doesn't appear to have much rust (on a quick inspection I found just one obvious place on the lower fender behind the LH rear wheel), and the car is complete. It has been in a barn for 39 years and appears to have 6900km on the odometer. It also seems to be mostly original - when I removed the sheepskin set covers the original seats are almost perfect. Wiring and brakes look to be original, and although it reportedly has engine problems, it was turning over as we pushed it in gear (brakes not working as we pushed it off the trailer in gear to stop it running away.)

Between Christmas and New Year the plan is to pressure wash it (we removed the rust-free bonnet today, which revealed an accident repair on the LH front fender liner) and try and start the engine (which still has oil and oil looks good!) to see what it sound like and then go from there. The carbs will need cleaning and all rubbers replacing too. Still has the original carpets, which look as if they will clean up, and all the original dash hardware (including the keys!)

All rubber parts are toast, so the dismantling will be extensive, but as far as I can tell the floors and spring hangers are OK. Originally white, it has been repainted (oddly enough in the same Monza Red as the MkII MGA that I recomissioned in similar circumstances in the summer).

I will take photos after Christmas, but it looks like the owner has a good basis for a very nice original car.
Dominic Clancy

Sounds like you'll be getting another one back on the road.
Martin

Anyone who wants something done cheap and then dumps the car on you is someone to be dealt with very firmly - watch your step with this person, the enjoyment you get from doing this project could soon disappear with a person like that.

Things might have improved but a lot of modern made rubber parts or parts with rubber in them can be poor, remove any existing rubber parts very carefully and keep them as much as possible in case they need to go back on! Look up piss-poor rubber here for a possible heads up.

With the A-series you also open to sourcing lots of other parts (and lubes) from independant Mini suppliers, sometimes better quality than from the usual suspects and often also better quality or choice and at lower prices even for the same made part (good brake fluid very cheap for example).

Good news is a few Frogeye owners are mid restoration so lots of current details available, even better news I know even less about them than the later cars (excepting 1500) so 'contribute' less to the subject.

Unless it to do with A30/35 and later fwbs of course, I picked up a bit of info on those. :)
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, no problem, the owner is a very good friend I have known for 20 years! He's just very keen to get this moving again, and thinks I am the only guy to do it with him. As he has a deep pile carpeted (!) (reclaimed from a bankrupt airline's offices) and heated workshop I shall be doing this project in comparative luxury. He has also committed to buying my entire workshop kit and let me continue to use it until I retire to Thailand in a couple of years, so I think it will be OK.
Dominic Clancy

You say it has original carpets. Frogeyes originally had a rubber mat covering the floors and tunnel. Has that been replaced?
Dave O'Neill 2

Dominic, perhaps it's you taking advantage of him then. :)

I was thinking the same as Dave about the carpeting but as you were using American terminology for other stuff I thought it might be a mental tri-language mash-up (I never knew Bs had rubber mating until Dave's.

It'll probably be 4 years before you get to Thailand as I'm sending my Midget over to your mate's garage, I'll include the two volumes of fixes I think it needs and plenty of pages at the end for you to add to as you go on with it. You will not find any seized fixings or fittings as all are on wingnuts.

If you can get your mate's finished by spring I'll send mine over after.

Nigel Atkins

Here's a couple of photos of what I have to start with





Dominic Clancy

Is it set up for negative or positive earth?
GuyW

It looks very nice on the outside although it does have a later bonnet badge. Under the bonnet with the battery, which looks new, sitting the way it is, it may be negative ground but then, the owner may have "assumed" that it is negative ground but isn't. The engine looks like a 1275 with that PCV valve on the intake manifold. Other then that, it looks pretty good.
Martin

The battery is new (yesterday) as I want to try and start it before dismantling anything. It is set up for -ve earth, which surprised me. The engine number is missing, so not yet sure what is fitted. Next job is to pressure wash everything
Dominic Clancy

Once you have the engine clean, or whilst cleaning, you might see other cast numbers on the engine and whether the fuel pump aperture is factory blanked or blank plate - or engine driven.

The AH and Union flag badges on the wing are owner added (customised/modified).

Are the air filters oil or foam (look a bit thin for K&N but it's a small photo)?

There is a self-proclaimed Spridget Guru, his site does have lots of useful info, nothing like Paul's or Barney's though. - http://www.spridgetguru.com/
Nigel Atkins

It isn't a 1275, as the orientation of the t'stat housing is for earlier, small-bore engines.
Dave O'Neill 2

Dave,

It could be a 1275 because you can replace the thermostat housing with an earlier one. I've had that setup on my 1275 for years since I use the original vertical flow radiator.

Dominic,

Look on the block under the front carb The 1275 has a raised 1275 cast into the block.
Martin

Martian

The t'stat mounting studs are in a different position on the 1275.

The heater tap is also in a different orientation.


Dave O'Neill 2

The capacity on a 1275 is on a stamped ally plate, rivetted to the block, although it wasn't fitted to all engines.


Dave O'Neill 2

The studs may be in a different position but the housing still works. I've used them on different 1275 heads without any problems over the last 48 years. The engine may be a 1098 since they also used the PCV valve.
Martin

I wasn’t saying you can’t swap the housing between engines, just that the engine in the photo isn’t a 1275, due to the positioning of the studs.
Dave O'Neill 2

Dave,

Agreed about the thermostat housing, etc. I think that this engine is either a 1098 or a 948 that has has a different intake installed since the 948 pre-dated the PCV valve.

As for the 1275 tag, my mistake. It's not something that I look at everyday.
Martin

948 & certainly the early 1098s did have the capacity cast into the block. I think the later 1098 had ‘1100’ on an ally plate.

Could well have had a 1098 transplant.
Dave O'Neill 2

I was thinking perhaps the engine isn't MG as such.

Must admit I thought the 1275 was cast on the engine but I can't even remember if it's on mine or not.

I know Dominic won't be over worried about strict concours-type originality, he might even persuade the owner to fit electronic ignition to make things easier and more reliable for recommissioning and use.
Nigel Atkins

I must admit I had read this the other way around from the start. I assumed it had previously been fitted with a later engine and gearbox, but as the engine had unspecified damage ( Dominic's first post) one option might be to source a cheap 948, possibly even a minor engine as a quick and cheap solution for the owner on a tight budget. But it would need to fit to the later gearbox. I thought that was the question!
GuyW

The rocker box has what looks like an MG sticker on it. The cylinder head has the tapping for the temp sender. The PCV looks from a later engine so I bet its a 1098cc possibly 10CC with the larger mains. I think I can make out a ribbed gearbox.
Bob Beaumont

I did notice the engine number plate was missing (I assume they were on earlier engines too) and that the heater outlet hose is a convoluted type.

The block and head could be mixers.

I'm sure Dominic will turn up with more detailed photos of the whole car.

Just imagine how welcome the Austin Healey crowd over here would make you if you had that wing badge on a MK2 Sprite. :)

Snobby load of old farts they were when I had my Mk4 Sprite Spridget, same as some of the MG lot.
Nigel Atkins

Spent some time today to asses the car in more detail.

1. It has a 1098 engine and rib case gearbox. Odometer reads just over 6000 km. The car seems too good overall to have done 106'000 in 20 years, but the fact that the engine and gearbox have been replaced and the car has been resprayed from the original OEW make us unsure.
2. After replacing the distributor plate (no circuit between the plate and the dizzy terminal, and I have a boxful of old distributor bits) and filling the float chambers with fuel I was able to start the car. Everything seems to work OK, oil pressure was 60 psi and rising when the float bowls emptied. No strange knocks or noises. So it seems that ignition issues caused the car to be laid up, and I have already fixed them.
3. The cooling system was still full of fluid so it seems as if the radiator will be OK too. No coolant in the oil
4. All gauges work and are original
5. Brakes seem to have been renewed before the car was laid up - rear shoes are new (but very probably contain asbestos so will be carefully and legally disposed of). Handbrake needs looking at. Brake hose at the front left side has been cut (!). All hard lines are OK, but we will replace the entire system with new.
6. Kingpins both need replacing, play in RH side. All wheel bearings are OK
7. Loom is original but has been hacked about so will be replaced.
8. RUST. Floor pans have rot along the outer edge, but sills are fine and inner sills too. Rust in the outer section of the chassis legs too. One small rust patch at the bottom of one A pillar , but the doors are solid on their hinges and the shut lines are great. One small patch of rust on the lower wing behind one rear wheel. Spring hangers are solid. Otherwise a fairly aggressive search with a hammer finds no other problems or dull sounding areas. Anyone feel like coming to do a weekend of welding for me ? I can supply MIG equipment but am banned from welding for medical reasons.
9. All rubber parts are rotted and will be replaced
10. Absolutely no rot, no rust and no dents at all in the bonnet. It is perfect.
11. Seats are original and will just need a good clean.

The owner took a gamble on the engine problems (I located a used and running engine for him just in case) but if we can get the rust fixed for a reasonable price he has the basics of a very nice little runabout.

I shall reveal the purchase price and costs at the end of the project!


Dominic Clancy

Sounds like you've got a nice car to work on. Minimal fixes. Although we all know what minimal means on these cars.
Martin

Sounds good.

I think I'd call this extended recommissioning

You know to be very careful about the purchase of modern made rubber parts.

Talking of which, let us know which new tyres you decide on.

For A post drainage, depending on work required, Guy (and a. n. other) had an internal tube improvement, see Gut here or in Archives here.

As with B engine cleaning out the engine block coolant drain hole is important for proper cleaning/servicing.

With the cooling/heating system fully clean and all components in good order the heater should be hot (and is basically only on or off by turning the cylinder head tap, not the fresh air flap that is best left open in all weather to distribute heat or ventilation).

For this you'll obviously need the fresh-air intake trunking fitted to heater blower and correctly to front intake, however that is.

I'm just glad all the gauges work. :)

More photos and progress, and perhaps separate threads for seperate issues, if any, awaited.
Nigel Atkins

Sounds great.

Does it have a dynamo driven rev counter?

If getting a new loom make sure it matches the curent spec of the car - Autosparks do standard RHD and LHD Frogeye with the option to have mods e.g. alternator, see: https://www.autosparks.co.uk/finder/car

Is the car LHD? Can convert from RHD using new steering rack and dashboard (try a couple of UK firms that import USA cars for a LHD dash). Pedal boxes can be moved easily.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Yes it has a dynamo driven rev counter. The car was further dismantled today and we found only minor issues, nothing major or nasty surprises, just some bodges that were typical for a cheap 20 year-old car (as it was when it was laid up.)

I has definitely had a front end accident at some time in its life, and I strongly suspect that the bonnet was replaced as a result, which is why it is as near as perfect as one can expect. Compression test showed three cylinders at 145, one at 140, so all OK.

Dominic Clancy

I presume my frogeye had a front end smash as well early in its life as the whole front crossmember and chassis legs have been replaced and expertly welded on with oxy acetylene.
David Billington

A 10CC block should have a casting number starting 12G. If it starts with 12A its basically a Morris Minor engine. Without the engine number you can't determine it's parentage.
Rob
MG Moneypit

Plan is to take the engine and Gbx out on Monday. It's too dirty to start looking for casting numbers before we get it out.

The welding assessment will be tomorrow, so fingers crossed. Having priced up a full parts list already, the owner has a budget for the complete project so tomorrow is decision day.
Dominic Clancy

Morris Minor & early Spridget 1098 with 1.75" mains is casting 12A497
10CC prefix Spridgets with 2" mains is casting 12G432
HTH
David Smith

Time for an update.

The engine is a 1098 with small main bearings. One broken piston ring but everything else seems to be OK. The engine is broken down and will be reconditioned.

Gearbox looks great internally, even on the synchro rings!

The car is now stripped to the raw body shell and needs floors and jacking points, but the rest is solid. All the brake cylinders are shot, but the hard lines are fine - no rust!

As expected ALL rubber parts are toast..

Almost all the required parts have been ordered either from MSC parts or AHSpares and the car will go for welding next week, while we work on the reconditioning the other parts while to is away. It will get new brakes, electrics and lights, font suspension, exhaust, rubber parts, paint and tyres.

The owner has decided to sell the car when it is finished, so if you know anyone who may be interested please let me know. Estimated completion date is the end of May. It will then have been redone to Swiss standards! The last Midget I did was judged to be the best Midget the Swiss club had ever seen.......
Dominic Clancy

We have stripped the car to the bare shell, and it will be going for new floors and a sorting of a couple of other minor rust spots next week. WE have placed an order for about £2000 of parts, and will spend the next few weeks reconditioning everything ready to reinstall when the shell comes back in mid April.

One thing I need, but cannot order anywhere, is the rod and button for the handbrake lever - the old button is missing and the rod has been snapped off at the threaded end. Can anyone help out with one?

Frustrating yesterday was dropping the heater snail onto a concrete floor and watching it explode. Fortunately I found this new from Ashley Hinton.
Dominic Clancy

Andy Jennings mg spares website lists handbrake levers for 25.
No idea if they have the correct type for your project but any time I've spoken with them they have been unfailingly helpful.
Worth a phone call?
Greybeard

Dominic

Not cheap, but see:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Austin-Healey-Sprite-Chrome-Handbrake-Handle-Assembly-No-Ratchet-Plate/333802196053?hash=item4db8294c55:g:FIoAAOSwZRxfvr6M

Or a similar one with a ratchet from the same seller

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Austin-Healey-Sprite-Chrome-Handbrake-Handle-Assembly-with-Ratchet-Plate/233796809052?hash=item366f60315c:g:f60AAOSwCKxfvrhk

PS part numbers for the button (Plunger Thumb) is 7H5948, the rod 7H5945.

I agree with Grey, Andy Jennings MG Spares are very friendly and helpful.

Cheers
Mike





M Wood

Welding like that cannot be done by even a trained monkey.That took a ton of skill replicating bad welding.
I would never consider it unless free so that it could be cut apart and properly re welded.
Sanders

Handbrake also available at Welsh MG Centre:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-MIDGET-HANDBRAKE-LEVER-ASSEMBLY/233345837470?hash=item36547ee99e:g:UoEAAOSwsUVdg2Dh

Looks as though it was the handy work of the same welder. Were handbrakes used as training pieces for apprentices?
C Mee

The Frogeye handbrake lever is longer than the later car ones. They are much less common. As Dominic only wants the missing bits I imagine one could cobble together a button, spring and pawl from a later type, and cut the operating rod and add a bit in to suit the longer lever. Depends on the condition of the one he has, but it might be easier than finding a good condition complete replacement
GuyW

I notified the details of the car to the MGCC register a couple of days ago and they tell me it is the earliest car known to the register.

This then brings the question of whether we should reinstall the 1098cc engine or source the correct 948cc unit.

Thoughts....?
Dominic Clancy

But can we combine the 948cc engine with the 1098 backplate, flywheel and clutch and ribcage gearbox?
Dominic Clancy

Dominic
You'd stated January 1960 earlier in the thread. So, not that early for a Frogeye.
Bill Bretherton

Dominic,

Does it only have a single triangular panel each side of the engine bay and no reinforcing box section over the rear axle hump, if so that would be an early one and I've only ever seen one in person. Someone will have the change point where they strengthened those areas. Now where did I put my copy of Horler?
David Billington

Dominic

Sounds like mission creep. Earlier you said they want a cheap rebuild to get it going again.

If you did want to spend money, but not too much, how about use your 1098cc gearbox nd clutch, source a 948cc engine that needs a rebuild and put in 998cc mini pistons (998 standard bore, ie. 948cc plus 60, or 998 plus 60 depending on local rules nd budget - could use secondhand pistons) and use your 1098cc rods, head and carbs? Nice little revvy engine.

Any pictures to share?

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

It was first registered in 1960, but the chassis number dates it to May 1958.

It has apparently had two resprays, the first in Ice Blue, the second in Damask red.

I will check the other body details when we get the body back with new floors at the end of the month

For photos scroll to the bottom



Dominic Clancy

It has the early studded screen which was changed in 59 to the later two stud so it would tend to confirm its early heritage.

The 948 engine will go on the 1098 box with the clutch and backplate etc. If you are going back to originality then you will need to source a smooth case Minor box for it!!
Bob Beaumont

In answer to the query of the triangular reinforcing plates , I can confirm that there is only one each side
Dominic Clancy

Well I have now finished working on this project as my move to Rayong, Thailand gets closer. The car is now sitting on refurbished suspension and new brakes, and has new floors and is now waiting for paint.

Just for the record, the car was purchased running and complete for 800€. The front has been replaced after an accident and is completely rust free. It must have driven strangely (probably the reason it was laid up for 40 years) because the front left kingpin and shock absorber were both bent about one inch out of true - which we only discovered when we went to reuse the old shock. Careful measurement shows that the body is straight, and replacing the shock with a new one let everything go back together easily.

The car will be sold by the owner once it is completed next year.
Dominic Clancy

Good update Dominic. Enjoy Rayong. I had a great weekend there with a local friend. Lovely place I thought.
Greybeard

This thread was discussed between 11/12/2020 and 29/09/2021

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