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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - New improved wishbones

Anyone got any experience of these?

http://www.spridgetwishbone.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=1

C L Carter

Not personally, but Barry King's wishbones are supposed to be the best available.

There are many happy customers on here AFAIK.
Dave O'Neill2

Ive got em, not on the car yet, but my dealings with berry was very top shelf...a really great guy

They look well made and as others said they perform very well

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Sounds like your wishbones are shot then Christian?
Lawrence Slater

x2 Barry King wishbones are the very best available, and make sure to take the option of having the fulcrum pins come already fitted (a very nice touch)



Norm
Norm Kerr

These are Barry Kings - so I'll get these then.

Yes, Lawrence one is - the other is borderline, sent you and email on Saturday. I'll try and get a photo up.

TBH, the majority of the wear is on the pin not the wishbone. But like I said, one is knackered - so why not get nice shiny new ones already clean and painted and if possible re-engineered.

Norm,
When you say fulcrum pins already fitted - what do you mean? Surely you have to remove the fulcrum pin to fit your kingpin?
C L Carter

the first time that a fulcrum pin is installed, it is very tight

Having just the right size screwdriver, and some lubricating oil helps, but it can be a real pain. Also, it sort of "vouches" for the wishbone having been properly made (improperly brazed fittings in a carelessly made wishbone would make the pin installation almost impossible).

Barry King sells them with it already done, so you can much more easily remove and then re-install it, than otherwise.


Norm

Norm Kerr

Hi Christian. No email received from you. Must have got lost in the ether.
Lawrence Slater

Ok, got it and replied. :)
Lawrence Slater

Incidentally, I asked the MGOC what you get for your £30 reconditioned wishbones and it sounds good.



"Hi,
They are sandblasted and checked for corrosion and fitted with new threaded inserts then repainted.

With Thanks
MGOC Spares Dept
01954 230928"
C L Carter

This is one of these reconditioned wishbones I put on in winter 2008/09.
Within a half year of fitting it it cracked while touring arround in Scotland...
Sandblaste tp much in its life? 3x 4x?
Did the metal became to thin or to brittle?
I heard a metal squeque everytime I took a corner.
Could have turned out real nasty if I hadnt heard it and it would have eventualy broke -off....


Anyway, replaced both sides with Barry Kings.
Dont be to cheap on parts that matter safety-wise.



Arie de Best

Hey arie,

A little dab of painters chaulk would fill that crack in nicely

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

"They are sandblasted and checked for corrosion and fitted with new threaded inserts then repainted." That sounds nothing more than a visual inspection to me. I would expect them to at least be crack tested and measured for distortion.

Trev

T Mason

Trev, my experience is they dont check as you can see on my photo...

Reconditioning is fine but at some point a object has reached its time and its no longer safe to use.
Its then time to throw it away and get new (if available ofcourse).

But a little warning that (what most have experienced the hard way) evrything being made new nowadays isnt always better/stronger then the old stuff.

All I can say is that Barry King's wishbones are better/stronger. (right on photo)


Arie de Best

Im especialy pleased with this reinforcement they make on it.


Arie de Best

If money was no object, I'd buy the B kings. The thing is though, how long do the B kings last over standard ones? I agree the extra nipple will make a difference, but how much in terms of miles, before the threads in the bushes and on the pin, wear in exactly the same way as a reconditioned one. Can someone quote a mileage on theirs?

I agree these things can't be reconned forever, but as long as the ones that are reconned are in a good enough condition, I'm still happy to use them.
Lawrence Slater

Arie, thats exactly the point I was making, Quality Control seems to be non existent to them and indeed to most other suppliers whether the item is new or re-conditioned. I would have thought that with all the rubbish we see and hear about coming from China etc. that suppliers and importers would have more stringent QC checks than ever but it appears they don't do any checks at all.

Trev
T Mason

Lawrence, in my experience, worn wishbones that are "good enough" are only good enough for another 10 or 20,000 miles.

For a trailer queen, that should last forever, but a car that gets used, then by the time the front suspension is due for a full rebuild, re-using those parts, while sometimes possible, but new ones will last many times longer.


If the MGOC was properly crack checking the used ones, then I'd agree with you that their product should be very nearly as good as brand new ones, but from Arie's experience, and from the wording of the MGOC letter, it seems like one takes ones chances.


By the way, the real question ought to be: what is the price difference between the used MGOC ones, and the new Barry King ones (which also have additional reinforcement)?

That price difference, coupled with the above knowledge, should allow each person to make up their own mind about cost/benefit.



Norm
Norm Kerr

Hmmm.

Well my wish bones are orginal and the car was built in aug 1971...and had 81,xxx miles on the clock so thats 42 years and I just now have the beginnings of a crack on the drives side in the same place as aries

Sooo. With berry kings ... id expect at least another 42 years.

so, they should at least good till 2055, and ill be 91 years old

Thats going to suck ... installing new wish bones at the age of 91....I guess I better take the day off to rest up....hahaha

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Barry King Reinforced. @£175 per pair inc P+P.
Barry King Standard. Single units £70 inc P+P.

MGOC. Reconditioned 30 quid.

I bought a reconditioned one from ebay, for 29 quid and it's fine. It has to be remembered that not all recon's are 50 years old, or have been reconned multiple times.

I don't think this should turn into a scare story that you should only trust new wishbones, and of the new, only trust Barry kings.

Lawrence Slater

I agree - I would have blasted and painted mine if the bushes had been okay.

I think Arie was unlucky.

I'll make my own one day - so as long as they last until I have the time to do that - I'll be happy.

If they crack before then, I'll sue the MGOC for negligence lol

Has anyone seen any tubular wishbones made before - I think that will be a fun engineering challenge for me.
Christian Carter

Anyone having BBS problems?
MG Moneypit

Something strange is going on!!!!
MG Moneypit

This is the only thread that seems to work. Everything else has just vanished.
MG Moneypit

Is.it.working
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hmmm....issues !

Can anyone else comment ... I can type a comment... hit the submit button it says thanks but nothing is posted

Did our site get hacked by snowden and anonymous Or Is this The NSA spying on us....hahaha

Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I meant in the general side... but I cant post a topic thread on this side ither... but can post comments

Good luck guys.. ill get off for a while the the God of our BBS, can work without my nagging....hahaha

Thanks God of the BBS

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Yes, it's still happening. This is the only thread I can contribute to. All others seem to go down a black hole.
MG Moneypit

Christian, that IS Barry King - see the Contacts page !
David Smith

Yup same problems with me. All my customised options have been reset too.

As for tubular wishbones Christian. See this.
http://www.huffakerengineering.com/products.htm

Lawrence Slater

Me too, tried twice to post a new topic re: grommet for steering column - did not appear. Prop, your post - about having problems posting - comes up as archived or removed!
N.C. Nakorn

Yup same problems with me. All my customised options have been reset too.

As for tubular wishbones Christian. See this.
http://www.mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/midget-front-suspension-mod-2012120920044314700.h2013-12-05
Lawrence Slater

I've got my wishbones back... they look solid - but the new bushes that have been braized in are confusing me...

I am unable to thread the fulcrum pin in without considerable force - I feel like I am cutting new threads as I wind it in. Is this normal?

Christian Carter

Nope, not normal. Brazed in is normal, but they should have been brazed in such that the fulcrum is an easy screw fit. It sounds like they aren't in line. Suggest you send them back and ask for replacements.
Lawrence Slater

2X lawerance

If they arent in line, your no doulbt recutting new threads in the bushing...aka cross threading
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

>>Suggest you send them back and ask for replacements.<<

depending on the quality of the replacements this story could turn scary :)

Norm's "vouches" explanation may be vouching for itself :)
Nigel Atkins

I rang the MGOC earlier... they said this is normal, and that its the lacquer in the threads after repainting and that some white spirits will take it out... I'm pretty certain this is c**p... I don't think they've been jigged up properly while brazing. Or they've been distorted with heat. I'll send them back and get Barry's I think.

C
Christian Carter

Christian,

If the fulcrum pin is trying to re-cut the thread it'll show up in the grove in the fulcrum pin so maybe get a magnifier on it or a magnet as if lacquer is being cut it won't be attracted but if the bush is being cut then steel particles will be attracted to the magnet. Years ago I was told be a guy that supplied reconditioned wishbones that the proper way to do it was to braze in blank bushes and then tap them with a special tap to ensure the threads were coincident.
David Billington

There are definitely bits of metal… I'm sending them back. Will cost me postage money though!

Its ridiculous that they send them out like that… you'd have thought they would try each one with a pin before completing the process

David, like you say… either they should be tapped afterwards, or a jig should be used to braze them in.

Christian Carter

I think they use an old fulcrum pin to align them. If it's very worn, there is a lot of margin for error.
Dave O'Neill2

reading the workshop manual doesn't state any torque for the rear fulcrum pins (the ones that go through the bushes with the tab washer welded to them). Seems like a critical component not to have a specified torque… are they done by feel? or Ffffffffffully tight?

Christian Carter

For the fasteners which don't have a specified torque in the shop manual, mechanics were meant to torque to standard shop practice for that size of fastener. These tables are available on the internet.


Here is one that I made for myself, including a reduced torque value for use with anti-seize (which I use religiously).

Basically, all of the general fasteners on a Midget are Grade 5.



Norm


Norm Kerr

Wasn't there a thread in the last year about new wishbones that had already had cracks substained from the production process. Who was offloading them?
Roy
R Mcknight

Hi Christian.
I assume you are talking about the inner wishbone bush fulcrum pins. They're either nylocs or castle nuts. You just tighten the nut until you've got the tabbed washer hard against the shoulder of the fulcrum pin. Then if using the castled nut, put the split-pin in the nearest slot to the hole. If using nylocs, your done. If you've got the tabs on the washers properly located into the chassis, the fulcrum pin can't rotate and the nut won't come undone. No need to torque them.
Lawrence Slater

Roy it was me: new out of the box!

Flip


Flip Brühl

The shop replaced it. I only had to pay the postage

Flip


Flip Brühl

My experience says that buying from the MGOC does not guarantee you will get a good product. They have just as much cheap crap on their shelves as anyone else. I used Barry King wishbones on the Midget I recently built and they were miles better than the standard items.
Mike Howlett

Mike, what I keep asking, and have also asked Bking, is how long the bking bones will last, relative to an original new wishbone. All said and done, it's still a threaded steel pin in a threaded steel bush. They have better greasing arrangements in that you grease from both ends. But can someone give me a definitive answer to how many more miles you will get from them?

As I said recently to Christian, the BK bones seem to have come down in price. So given that he does a "standard" version with double grease nipples (£70 inc P+P), for about the same price that sussex sell the single grease nipple version for (64.56 plus P+P), I'd get the BK ones too, -- if buying new.

And if it really is the case now, that there is nowhere with the skill and care to rebush wishbones, then it looks like there is no other choice than to buy new. --- and you know what that will do to prices.
Lawrence Slater

Flip. Who supplied the new cracked wishbone? Why did you have to pay the postage?
Lawrence Slater

Well, Lawrence - I've done just that. Mgoc are coming tomorrow to pick up the crappy ones they sent me (they want to inspect them before they refund me... I told them they should have inspected them before they wasted my time)

Barry is going to drop off 2 new wishbones in person... £140 with 2 grease points (although you need to supply your own extra nipple and plug on one end)

Note, he also said the £70 is out of date and its now £75, but has honoured the £70 in my transaction.

Christian Carter

Well, Barry delivered them within 2 hours of ordering them. Thats service!

Just had a good look at them, and the pins run in the threads stiffly but nicely. The extra nipple is a bonus (for the sake of a few extra quid, saves me doing it myself)

The paint job is a bit naff though, looks like 2 coats of gloss hammerite sprayed haphazardly, and with no primer. Hence when I removed the stickers, the paint came off to the bare metal. Shame, cos the rest seems good.

Note the bearings are welded in, not brazed - which means you'll struggle to ever change them. (not that you'll probably want to)

All in all, much happier with the £70 Kings than the £30 MGOCs - although both were good solid units and I don't believer there was anything wrong with the structural integrity of the MGOCs recons
Christian Carter

Hi Christian,
two comments from me:

Firstly, did you mention your concerns about the paintwork to Barry? Even if your comments are fully justified, I think you should have done so and given him the opportunity of correcting them before criticising them openly on a public forum.

Secondly, If you ordered from MGOC online, then you should be able to get your money back without any quibbling and without having to give any reason, under the Distance Selling Regulations. Unless you kept them too long before deciding to return them.
Guy Weller

I have already arranged for the MGOC to collect them tomorrow.

I have no reason to complain to Barry on the paintwork as they meet my expectations, I just wanted to make the forum aware of their strength and faults (this is of course all just my opinion). I can't see Barry changing the way the paints his products on the basis of my quibbles so no point complaining to him, especially as he isn't making any more units now and just selling off what he has.

I didn't give the MGOC the opportunity of correcting their wishbones before I openly criticise their products. The whole point of a forum like this is to share and collaborate knowledge, and for me that includes suppliers (however large or small their operations) - if it helps someone make a decision in the future, then I feel I've shared some useful information.

So just to recap Guy, if you reread my post, its mostly praise for Barry's product - go buy one! Just be aware I think the paintwork is mediocre.
Christian Carter

So it is true that BK, has decided to close shop...


ive heard that rumor for about a year, but never saw conformation

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Fair enough Christian. I must admit I read your comment about the paintwork as a fault with the particular individual item, rather than a personal judgement about the overall quality of the product.

And the reference about MGOC wishbone was really in support of you as I thought there was some implication that they might be difficult about refunding you.
Guy Weller

No, I think they will all be done the same as these 2.

Tbh with you, the one good thing I have to say about the MGOC is that they've always been good at replacing and refunding me when they supply the wrong/poor quality products. In this case, the guy who answered the phone was a bit weird about it but said he'd inspect them when he gets them back… at which point he'll see how the threads are misaligned (and hopefully apologise)

Christian Carter

"especially as he isn't making any more units now and just selling off what he has."

Well that puts the kybosh on it then. When barry has sold out that leaves us all at the mercy of whoever else is supplying new bones. I Hope they're good for when I need new replacements again. Maybe I should buy a pair of Bkings as "stock". The other thing i must get around to doing, is to take my old bones to the local engineers and ask how much they'd charge to knock up some bushes and fit them.
Lawrence Slater

Ive already bought Barry Kings in stock for whenever in the future I need replacements.

A pitty now Barry's dad stopped no one is willing to invest in quality parts anymore.



Christian Carter wrote on 4 dec.:
"I think Arie was unlucky."

Maybe, but I also replaced a wishbone before because the fullcrimbushes came "loose" from the wishbone (reconditioned!!) while driving... you get some intresting drivingbehavier when that happens. :)

I rather avoid "unlucky" by buying the best available.

Think about the tenners you saved when your in a wheelchair because the wishbone gave up on a vital moment... ;)



A de Best

So ... what is wrong with the reproduction wishbones from Moss and other big suppliers? (assuming a person just wants a standard replacement without upgraded reinforcement)
Trevor Jessie

I don't know about Moss - but in the UK, the MGOC ones are £85... no idea how good they are (but I have my suspicions)

The moss and rimmer brother ones, I have no idea about.

The Sussex Classics ones are reasonable at £65 including fulcrum pin.

But Barry Kings are £75, with a fulcrum pin, postage, and an extra nipple already fitted. So for value they seem very good - (only useful for the UK though)

Christian Carter

I would hazard a guess that Moss, MGOC, Sussex etc., are all selling the same item.

I can't imagine there are too many people prepared to invest in the tooling for such a limited market.
Dave O'Neill2

Barry was supplying his basic wishbone to the guy that rebuilds lever shocks at world wide auto peter _______, but im not sure how that worked out as everyone that wants BK bones wants his primium race bones like i got...there just a few dollars more and very beefy

prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I got his basics, because

1. the extra weld on the suspension will yes stiffen them up... buts its minimal and I'm not racing... so don't care

2. I disagree with the concept behind the "improved" lubrication system... I think the hollow shaft helps and his reason for blocking it up was 'it gets blocked by swarf anyway...

well if I thought it was a good idea I could block up the hole for a few pence worth of mild steel

What it really needs to be improved is a flat bush design with some sort of location other than threads.
Christian Carter

Christian,
as the BK web site gives so little info (unless I missed links) can you tell me please, the basic are the original basic design same as you get anywhere else but careful made?

the uprated BK have a strengthen piece, extra grease point and hollow shaft - is that the £35 difference per pair?
Nigel Atkins

Almost,

The uprated premier ones have an extra strengthener (you can see this welded to the front underside in the picture on the "about us" page on his website.

They have an extra grease nipple and a SOLID fulcrum pin... this is the 'improvement'

As far as I can tell his standard ones are identical to any others only he has threaded the steel cap on one end and added a grease nipple. The steel is pressed and welded like all the others but the bushes are WELDED in, not brazed. Arguably stronger, but the brazing is strong enough anyway. You certainly won't be able to safely remove and replace these bushes in the future... but that is hopefully not a concern. I mean, if you wanted to you could drill them out, but i wouldn't like to braze or weld structurally onto built up weld. Meh, like I said a moot point.

but you're right the website isn't great, but Barry/his son will talk to you on the phone and explain... very nice chap.

C
Christian Carter

But... my orginal from the factory lasted 42 years

If the premium race bK last for 42 years as well il be in my 90s age wise before i need another new wish bone....at that point, im sure will be using Mr fusion as a powernsource, when that happens we wont need roads where we are going

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Cheers Christian, I got the notes right then but not necessarily in the right order (you might be too young to get that reference though)
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, I may be young - but was raised on as much Morecombe and Wise as you were.
Christian Carter

not all of their stuff was good but a lot of it was
Nigel Atkins

Barry King's do have heavier gauge gusset brackets. I am not a racer but I needed a new wishbone after 40 years of use because of a crack. I have seen and spoken several others with cracks. None of them racers. I do grease the fulcrums twice a year with TSL all star
It kept the fulcrums without any play for 70.000 km. I could easily remove them with a screwdriver.


Flip


http://www.tsl-allstar.nl/
Flip Brühl

Flip. You still haven't said. Who supplied your new cracked wishbone, -- in the picture below?
Lawrence Slater

Lauwrence,

I am not sure. AHA7029 is a Moss number, The one who delivered me said he got them From Moss. Who produced them? It is my guess that all big parts services use the same cheap manufacturer, unless the service costs them money.
Flip Brühl

As I understand it the advantage of having grease nipples on both sides is to ensure grease is deivered to both threads.

With the original design, when wear occurs, grease follows the line of least resistance and exudes from the first threaded section - insufficent pressure being developed to reach the far thread/bearing through the hollow pin and hence wear etc.

When I rebuilt my car a few years ago - 'Moss' supplied wishbones carried a made in Britain - Union Jack and had the double grease facility - do not know source of supply.

R.
richard boobier

Ah, Barry's carried the same logo - that is one of the stickers I removed.
Christian Carter

I have always added the extra grease nipple at the opposite end on mine - a 5 min job. Then when grease is applied both ends get properly lubricated and grit and road dirt is forced out past the cork washers, not pushed on into the yonder bearing bush.
Guy Weller

Thanks Flip.

And I have a pair on the Sprite with double nipples too. I wondered at first if they were BK's, but when I cleaned them up, I could see that it was a diy job(another used ebay bargain in great condition, that came "free" with a set of stub axles and hubs -- with good rhp fwb's).

BK uses a solid fulcrum pin, so the only way the grease can get to the centre of the wishbone and be expelled, is if the grease is first pushed along the the entire length of the thread. I thought that was a good idea, so I've blocked my fulcrums at the ends. BK also blocks off the small holes too, but I've left mine as it won't make any difference.

I guess without the incentive, nobody is going to come up with a commercially available alternative to this basc design, so we're all stuck with regular greasing to try and get the max life span out of threads that gradually eat themselves.

Sounds like it's worth asking Moss first before buying if they have double nipples, to see if they are supplying BK's.
Lawrence Slater

interesting I have the standard set up with the one grease nipple. I rebuilt the front suspension when I rebuilt the car 3 years ago. The suspension was last overhauled in 1992. It had hardly any discernable wear on the the fulcrum pins or king pins for that matter. The car had covered some 50K miles so not a lot admittedly but had been regularly greased. Given the mileages most of the cars do nowadays, it may not be worth the hassle of the modifications.
Bob Beaumont

Flip,
AHA7029 is a BL part number rather than any parts suppliers' part number
Nigel Atkins

The 'Z' suffix to the part number (in the photo) is what Moss use to identify a non-genuine part.
Dave O'Neill2

'genuine part' is probably a very loose description now on most newly manufactured parts for our cars
Nigel Atkins

Hi managed to do this to one of mine on an autosolo (autocross ) , and drove it home , with just a slight vibration , this is how i took it off the car ive not bent it about to exagerate it , up gradded with the B K ones


Darren tyre

Wow serious stuff. I thought the bk ones were only strengthened at the front fulcrum though.

And for info. BK sent me an email, I've been meaning to post it here, but forgot until Darren posted. It's pretty informative, so here it is.

"Hi Lawrence I have seen your post on BBS re fulcrum pin I am concerned you have blocked your pin,,our pin is solid on the premier but the bushes have a lubrication scroll machined within the thread of the bushes to allow grease directly to where is required,so the only way to get grease to your pin is to remove it surely,? the other benefit of a solid pin is the grease groove on the OE pin is damaging to the bush on pivoting due to its sharp edge(like a hacksaw blade) also a solid pin prevents distortion under the hardening process as the hollow pin is uneven and weaker to the heat.

In answer to some of the other queries yes my dad is finishing making the WB,s we have approx. 40 std units left and 6 pairs of premier coming through shortly no more neg camber. Yes my dad did supply Moss until 4 years ago @ one time 100 units /month amongst other outlets, and the union jack and the gold sticker are his. ---- "


Lawrence Slater

Its a pity that no one is interested in taking over the business for producing these units. I would have thought that it was potentially a quite a nice little proposition or a good addition to someone already running a fabrication shop. Time will come when good "originals" sound enough for refurbishing run out again.

But maybe Barry is already in negotiation with someone over these.
Guy Weller

This thread was discussed between 30/11/2013 and 16/12/2013

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.