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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - MOT Failure Advice Part 2. Gaydon now at risk!

Advice needed please.

After fixing rear brakes, renewing all handbrake pivots, clevis pins/washers, fitting new half shaft gaskets and replacing the period wide wheels yesterday with my old minilites which had been on the car without problems for 10 years I was hoping to pass this mornings MOT retest but it was not to be.

The handbrake and rear brake all now fine.

However even with the old Minilites wheels and tyres back on, at full right hand lock the inner side of the front offside tyre slightly rubs the bottom of the shock absorber (Frontline). Its never done this before (no tyre rubbing evident). The near side wheel clears fine at full left hand lock.

So question is - what sets the limits of how far the front wheels can pivot? Is there some kind of limit adjustment in the rack? It was not a problem before I fitted the wider wheels so something must have shifted. If the steering wheel did not turn the last half a turn on full lock there would not be a problem.

Advice PLEASE???


Steve maybe not going to Gaydon

:-(((

Steve 59 Frog

Steve, since the rub occurs on only one side I think the rack isn't centered relative to the stops on the axles. Try loosening the jamb nuts on each side and turning the inner tie rods one turn at a time, moving the tire with the rub out and the other tire in. If you're careful with the amount you move each you can keep the toe setting. I think you'll find that within a turn or two you will find a spot where neither tire will rub at full lock either direction. Good luck.
Bill Young

Steve

I had a similar problem with my frontline set up, however i do have the 14" knock-ons and 175 yokohams. My only solution was to use sone nylon rack spacers from KAD Kent on each side of the rack to reduce the amount of lock needed.
But i would also get the tracking checked out.


1012230 Steering rack limiter kit

Where a restriction in steering lock is desired, these simple nylon collars slip over the end of the rack limiting movement. Simple to fit, uses would include preventing 13” wheels fouling wheel arches, saving CV ’s in rally or grass track cars or with 6 pot calipers.

http://www.kad-uk.com/accessories
brian

NO!!!!

the limit stops are part of the kingpin.

look at the kingpin and you will see that there are ears to control the maximum position. unfortunatly teh only way to "adjust" these is to weld a small blob of metal on and then file it down to adjust. Any reasonable garage should be able to mig on a small blob for nothing (it's about 5 mins work because you have to undo the wheel).

Just make sure you clamp the mig onto the control arm and not the body of the car.


If this is all you need to do before you are ready then you're basicly there!


Why do people insist on thinking there are limit stops in the rack??
Will Munns

I can confirm Will is spot on.

Nick

Bill,
Thanks for advice but I am afraid that I may not use the same terminology as you (I am not sure what a jamn nut is).
If you can tell me which they are on this diagram that may help me.

Thanks again.

Steve

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=1184

Nb this site works on Internet Explorer but not Firefox
Steve 59 Frog

Will, nobody has mentioned that there are limit stops in the rack.
brian

I did not think there were limits on the rack - but I'm clutching straws as both I and the MOT guy (who is an old hand but not Sprite expert) could not work out how to cure the problem!
Steve 59 Frog

Will has a good solution.
Trevor-Jessie

I think what you need are some MOT wheels and tyres. Then once the car's passed avoid AT ALL COSTS sustained full lock at motorway speeds.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Steve,

Have you thought of trying another MOT station? I've used Rose MOT at Sunbury for two years, they appear to quite like spridgets.

15 Park Road 01932 770775.
m Marston

Steve I can sort you out with a set of the old narrow steel wheels if you want. It's about an hour from Twickers to me.
Jeremy Cogman

Using the limits of the rack to control the amount of lock available seems like asking for trouble! The rack pinion should not get anywhere near the last teeth on the rack when at full lock. If it does, then something is going to get damaged.
The proper limit to the amount of lock are Will's Ears (if you get my meaning!) The two little lugs at the base of the kingpin. It is very easy to add a blob of weld on there and then file a flat back on it to get the required limit.
Alternatively, there is another quick bolt-on solution available if you cannot get that bit of welding done. Most car accessory shops sell wheel spacer kits. The thinnest available, probably 3 or 4mm should move the wheel out sufficient that it doesn't kiss the shock tube anymore.

Guy
Guy Weller

Steve - I don't fully understand the problem, but I have a pair of 1/4" spacers on Cherry that could come off and be handed over. Spacers to push the wheels outward, that is.
Nick

Firstly thanks for advice and offers from Nick & Jeremy. I may need to take up your offers!

Before I do I want to check something.

Could these symptoms be explained because the whole steering rack assembly has shifted slightly towards the near side because the clamping brackets (no 59 in the Moss site) were not tight enough. Looking at the car I think I can see signs it might have shifted about 5 mm - but I have no idea if:

1) it is even possible that it could move.
2) If it moved would it make a difference to wheel lock

If the limits are set by the king pins then I dont see if it would change anything - but what is certain is that something has changed since I refitted kingpins as it was not happening a year ago and the lugs at the base of the kingpin have no wear showing that I can see.

Steve.
Steve 59 Frog

no, the limits of the steering are not set by the rack, you could remove the track rod ends and you would still have the same amount of travel.

Messing with the rack is a dead end.

it's wholy possible that they overlooked it for the past few years, but now it's on the MOT failure sheet for your car you can be sure they will check every year whereever you take it (they all see the same data).

Fix it with a blob of weld and be done with it
Will Munns



The primary objective at this point is to pass MOT...not diagnos and fix a time consuming problem...after the show you can tear it down and micron out the entire suspension if you want....but for now ....bailing wire and duck tape enginering is the order of the day

I think the weld blob is a great idea, not sure if MOT will allow spacers but seems that would work as well.....


prop
Prop

While the normal travel limit is provided by the ears on the kingpin and stubaxle the method mentioned by Brian above is still a very valid alternative as they fit over the rack between the rack body and ball joint at each end of the rack to limit the travel. As the spacer shown at KAD are split its arguable which is quicker to do, Wills 5 minute weld blob or maybe 5 minutes to remove the inner end of the rack gaitor and slot the spacer on.
David Billington

Prop,
Spacers are permitted - or at least you cannot see them once installed and mine has passed the last 7 MOT tests with them on. In my case, I need them otherwise the TRE ball joint just catches on the inside rear of the alloy wheels.
Guy Weller

Steve, item 50 in the diagram, keeps the inner rod from rotating by locking it in position in relation to the outer rod end.
Will, we've had this debate before and I guess there's still some misunderstanding about what I'm refering to. Yes, there are stops on the king pin and they should come into play before the wheel or tyre contacts the chassis, but they were designed for stock wheels, not alloys with potentially thicker sections and different offsets. In that case the rack may indeed reach the limit of it's travel (the pinion gear will eventually run out of teeth on the rack gear) and if the adjustment of the outer tie rod ends isn't even you can have one tyre rubbing and one not. It's an easy thing to check to make sure that the number of turns of the steering is the same from straight ahead to either lock, if not then the rod ends can be adjusted to center the steering and in many cases that will eliminate the interference on one side. If it doesn't then spacers are probably the answer.
Bill Young

I have ordered the rack spacers recommended by Brian. should arrive tomorrow.Not sure if they will solve it or not...

I will try and find a welder as well in case.

Its is a mystery though as nothing looks bent, worn or out of line yet the offside hubs rotation end point is clearly further than the nearside hub.

Obviously they move the same angle together as they are linked by steering rack/tie rods etc. but the start and stop locations of the arc they sweep are different each side.

Not sure this explains it well!
S
Steve 59 Frog

I may also have an original set of Frogeye wheels that you could put on.
would you be allowed to have minilites at the back and standard wheels at the front?
Another thought. Are all your minilites and tyres exactly the same size as each other as you may have put them on differently to how they were before.
G Lazarus

Bill thanks for clarifying. I have been trying your suggestion but cant get it to make a significant difference.
Steve
Steve 59 Frog

Gary - you have email re wheels!

The same wheel is on the front offside hub as before I fitted the period wide wheels - I had the same thought earlier this afternoon.

Steve 59 Frog

Have you checked the toe in yet?
Guy Weller

I haven't received any since your answer to Bob.
G Lazarus

Gary,
Odd - it must be in the ether somewhere. Gist of response was Thanks. Yes please, and can I collect tonight?
Do you still have my mobile number.
Steve
Steve 59 Frog

One thing no one has mentioned is how symmetrically accurate these cars are. The rear axle on my 59 is just a bit to one side. So there may be something that no amount of adjusting/spacering/wiggling will fix and Will's weld blob is the best bet. Mickey Mouse but functional.

Martin
Martin

G Lazarus,


THAT is an excellent point, I myself had to turn the off set on ONE alloy wheel about 3-5mm to get the 1/2" clearance on my sqaure arch ...do to my metal craft reconstrution of a rusted out arch,,,being slightly a miss.....So I always have to make sure that the one wheel always goes back to the same corner.....maybe you have a "shaved off set" wheel as well

Not knowing alot about FL suspension...I wonder if it just ""relaxed out a bit""....seems we are always talking about new suspensions, and how they settle out and find there groove over time.


prop
Prop

Bill,
as the rack is not ment to be an end stop, the only thing you could expect from a missaligned rack that hit an internal stop before the ears caught it would be _less_ travel than you would expect, not _more_ travel than you would expect.

Therefore if the problem is the rack, then fixing the problem will just make sure you have a problem on both sides rather than one.

of course, if you set the toe out massively then the endstop on the out-turning wheel will catch before the endstop on the in-turning wheel. the upshot of which would be the same as welding on a blob, except that you'd end up with loads of tyre wear (until you fixed it).

A hack it would be, but a cheap an d easy hack that would get you a slip of paper!
Will Munns

Steve

They are easy to fit, just cut the inner ties off the gaiters, pull the gaiters back towards the rod ends and that will expose the inner ball joints. The spacers then fit over the toothed rod and up against the inner face of the ball joint, secure with a tie wrap pull the gaiter back, secure with a tie wrap and job done. Takes about 5-10 mins each side.
See you on the 24th.

Brian
brian

Steve.

I have seen this problem before with the Frontline front shocks. The problem was the adjusting nut for the shocker dampening was catching the tyre in full lock. Solution.... turn the shocker through 180 degrees so the adjuster faces the opposite way, hey presto... clearance!

Mark.
Mark Boldry

if you do that then the adjuster hits the spring pan.

On the + side AVO only charge 25GBP a corner for a service and they will fix the damage you cause by doing this....


go on guess who has been here before
Will Munns

Steve, just get round for a nice little blobbaweld and get that show on the road
Bill

Will. Interesting point.... I have to say it didn't foul on anything on that particular midget, but I see that it could have.

The interesting thing on this car was as the tyres caught the shocker adjusters, it hardened up one side and softened the other... made for some interesting handling!!!

Mark.
Mark Boldry

Yes Mark, I don't think it hit the old springpans I had, but when I put it onto brand new pans... crunch

I think when it gets refitted I may have to "relieve" the springpan a little using a hammer so I can fit the shocks that way around
Will Munns

Steve now has some standard Frogeye steel wheels with 155/80 tyres. Let's see if that gives him the clearance that his MOT man requires.
G Lazarus

Even the standard 155/80s borrowed from Gary still rubs very slightly. Focus now is MOT for Gayden but something must be wrong with the setup. Buggered if I can see what it is though.
Steve 59 Frog

Maybe the lugs on one kingpin is worn a little. Replace the kingpin if you must, but essentially why bother, provided theres no funny play anywhere else on it; take Wills advice and stick a block of mig weld on there, file back until you have enough lock to lock without binding and then go and obtain your MOT!

As has been said, moving the rack wont help because theres so much extra travel over and above that you can normally use (as the kingpin stops it mid travel). Furthermore, I'd imagine that you'd only cause yourself steering column problems as if you move the rack you'll side load the column, which will cause stickey steering and accelerated bush wear.

Nick

>>>>>>Even the standard 155/80s borrowed from Gary still rubs very slightly.<<<<<<

Cool, your there CONGRATULATIONS!! ...You win!!!..... buy 20 flat washers, build them up on the 4 studs of the wheel, until you get clearance..., drive slowly, get it MOT'ed then come home pull the washers off...re-apply your wheels go to gaydon enjoy...come home THEN deal with it.


Please dont miss gaydon, because of this petty small issue....we here in the USA and around the world are vary enveyious of you for having such an oppertunity to experiance a once in a life time celebration or at least I am...lol


prop
Prop

Instinct tells me that it's good for the wheel to connect with the hub all round the circle - not just through four stacks of washers. Because I don't think I've ever seen Steve drive slowly.
Nick

Awaiting nylon rack spacers as described by Brian. No sign yet.
Here are three pics that show the difference between each side at full lock.

First where the tyre rubs the frontline shock, even with a standard wheel.


Steve 59 Frog

Here is offside view at full lock. Note overlap with shocks and compare with next view of nearside which has much more clearance.


Steve 59 Frog

No problems this side!

Maybe its just a very unsymmetrical car.....


Steve 59 Frog

Surely thus isnt entirely unconnected to this thread

http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&access=&mode=archiveth&subject=110&subjectar=110&thread=2008042020595514601

About variance in turning circle each way ?

If there's a diff in turning circle that surley implies there is more lock one way than the other ?
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

Steve,
In the photos, it appear as if there is much less space between the shock tube and the spring shroud, on the N/Side when com[pared to the O/Side. In other words, the shock seems to be more closely tucked in behind the spring on the side without clearance problems.

But maybe it is just the angle the photo is taken from?

Guy
Guy Weller

Brians' suggested nylon rack spacers appear to have done the trick. Marvellous things!


Steve 59 Frog

Clearance now fine even with Minilites. MOT retest at 15:15. Fingers crossed (again).
Steve


Steve 59 Frog

good luck
Bill

Fantastic news. looks good. When's it going back in for the MOT?
G Lazarus

15:15 Gary...

We're all waiting with baited breath :o)
Bob T

Ah that'll be why he said "MOT retest at 15:15. Fingers crossed (again)".

DOH! I should read fully before answering posts.
G Lazarus

MOT man looking at it right now (tension v high). I think I will take off spacers afterwards as right hand lock is now absolutely completely cr@p. I needed 2 spacers to do the job!).I have lost about half a turn of right hand turn from the steering wheel and as its only about 3 turns lock to lock on a frog this is quite a lot!
steve

at this point just get the MOT....even if you have to slug the guy out with a spanner....we can deal with the mechanical issues later...

prop


BTW...the idea of the flat washer ....Not to fix the problem, but just to drive the 10 miles or so slowly, show some clearance drive back slowly with MOT in hand and remove washers...put wheels back on......the washers are just a bailing wire/duck tape enginering cure.

prop
Prop


Steve, can you get your MOT man to check the tracking for you while on the ramps?
Bob T

What a nailbiting, edge-of-the-seat thriller this thread has been. No need to watch a scary movie tonight.

Will it? Won't it? I'm refreshing every two minutes!
Nick

LOL every 30secs more like...
Bob T

And......?
G Lazarus

Sorry to leave you on tenderhooks - went for a spin to celebrate!

I now have an MOT to go with my near nervous breakdown.
!!!!

Thanks hugely for the advice from so many. What a extraordinary forum this is when needed. It really helps to have so much virtual help when trying to solve the problems these little cars throw at you.
I still think I am missing something on the steering. It cant be that unsymmetrical.

Brian - you solved it with your spacers - although I think I will only fit the two spacers during future MOTs and leave them off for the rest of the year as they kill too much of the turning centre.

Gary - thanks for the loan - when do you want your wheels back?

Gaydon here I come - look out for tatty green frog No 378!!!


A relieved and grateful Steve
Steve 59 Frog

Hurrah! - Congratulations.

What a relief!

See you next Saturday.
Steve Clark

Cor! You take ten minutes to make a cup of tea, and miss the action.

Score ten for persistence, Steve. Has your firm fired you yet?
Nick

I think we should gather together a thousand or so Spridgets to celebrate Steve's MOT. What do you think?

As for the wheels. Whenever it's convenient. Perhaps after Gaydon if you have the facility to hold them that long. If not, let me know when.
G Lazarus

<<I think we should gather together a thousand or so Spridgets to celebrate Steve's MOT. What do you think?>>

Don't be ridiculous Gary. What a stupid and far-fetched fantasy.
Steve Clark

Congrats!

I am surprised the tyre rubs on the top, mine clipped an adjuster at the bottom... are yours Avo adjustable?
Will Munns

Glad to help.
brian

Is your car a heritage shell perhaps?

My front wheel on the drivers side just touches the tube front shocker on full lock with standard wire wheels fitted. This is due to the original top suspension mount ( front shocker) being slightly inboard of where it should be. Not sure if the heritage shells of today are any better but the early ones were certainly not made to exact specifications. Due to the top suspension mount being welded on to far in board my front wheel has a large amount of negative camber (leans in at the top) on it. One day I will get around to fitting the top trunion with an offset bush to straighten it up a little.
Bob (robert) Midget Turbo

Point of info Bob, Heritage don't do Mk1 Sprite shells.
Steve Clark

WHew!!!!


Just got Home ... Bee thinking about you and the frog all day long.....thank god it passed....

have a great time at gaydon.....Im sure you will be able to get it sorted after gaydon.

prop
Prop

Don't they? mmmm then that is a good point that needed to be made :-) (Red Dwarf mode off!!!)

I wasn't aware of that Steve but now I wonder how accurate the original shells were made? Same equipment, same method and possibly same QA.
Bob England

A bit of extra negative camber never hurt anyone Bob :o)
Surely a good thing on a Spridget. Maybe it was deliberated?
Bob T

I think everyone's shell is different, no two Spridgets ever sit the road exactly the same do they?

Anyway it is good that Steve is back amongst us

See y'all Sattiday



Bill

Combine that thinking with the fact that the car is 49 years old....trust me Im 43, and I dont stand any way near like I did when I was even 23...


prop
Prop

This thread was discussed between 15/05/2008 and 17/05/2008

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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