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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Indexing steering column and switch

Morning !

Still finding some non-logical assembly on my car, and I wonder if you could enlighten me, once more :)

I have a 1972 1275cc midget, with steering lock and horn on the steering. My indicator switch was broken, so I bought a new Lucas one. As a result, I now can't put the indicator to turn right when the steering wheel is straight, because there is a collision between the steering wheel column index and the indicator switch.

I tried to compare with previous one, and its shape is slightly different, was installed horizontally and not with an angle,... Also, my steering wheel is not straight to go straight: I have to apply around 10 to 15 degrees angle to go straight...

All this make me ask you, as I didn't find :
=> What are the original position of "index A" and "index B" ?
=> Any comments or remark ? :)

Thanks !



CH Hamon

One picture, not sure it helps...


CH Hamon

Index A is on the outer column which can be rotated by loosening the column bracket under the dash.
The wheel not straight to go straight is the position of the inner column on the splines of the steering rack spigot. Undo and remove bolt at the bottom of the steering column, pull of and reposition a few splines different. It can be a bit hit and miss so may take a time or two.

Rob
MG Moneypit

The steering wheel column arrow disappear... I put it back, to avoid any confusion.
Also, in case you wonder, everything else works fine: all lights turn on and off. Also, if I turn the steering wheel to put "index A" away from the switch, then I can activate both indicators and they work.




CH Hamon

Ahh, I see what you mean now.
I think its the position of the inner column on the steering rack splines. If you correct one it should solve the other.
Where it is at the moment the steering wheel is indicating you are turning and it could be in the position that normally cancels the indicators.
Rob
MG Moneypit

My English and drawing skills are not helping me to describe my issues :P
Do you know where the "index A" is suppose to be, when the steering wheel and wheels are positioned to go straight ?
CH Hamon

Cedric,
sorry I don't know about position of index A but index B should surely be horizontal, this would put the indicator stalk horizontal too.

The steering wheel could have been (is?) put on in the wrong position too.

To remove the steering wheel use the two hammer method as in John Twist's, University Motors, video number 1. -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwf2BDC5DMo
Nigel Atkins

On another note -
what does the team think about putting grease on the cancelling clip - good idea, unnecessary, unwise as grease and fluff could go on to delicate connections?

(No disrespect meant Cedric.)
Nigel Atkins

Index A and Index B should be aligned when the car is going straight ahead.
Index A is corrected by repositioning the inner column on the splines on the steering rack input shaft.
Once you have done this, if the steering wheel is still not horizontal with the car going straight ahead you need to remove the steering wheel and reposition it on the splines at the top of the inner column.

Index A is what cancels the indicator. At present index A (when the car is being driven in a straight line) is in a position which prevents the indicator lever being moved in one direction.

Also, as Nigel said, Index B should be horizontal and is corrected by loosening the outer column bracket under the dash.

Rob
MG Moneypit

Also, when a garage resets the tracking they usually do it at one TRE. If this is done enough times the rack itself will not be in the middle when the car is going straight forward.
You can tell this has happened if left lock and right lock produce different turning circles.
Rob
MG Moneypit

Rob,
wotdoya think about grease (as per my previous post)?
Nigel Atkins

Two more notes - obvious I know but, you set things like the steering wheel position with the steering lock disengaged and then short road test and parking test - and subject to the new stalk switch being of reasonable quality and other switches and connections being reasonable, it will negate the need for relays on the headlights.
Nigel Atkins

Index A is a 'spring' fit to the column. It is only held by friction and can be repositioned without needing to pull the column off the rack.

This is from Paul Hunt's MGB 'site.


Dave O'Neill 2

I totally misunderstood Cedric again, I thought Index A was the inner column, as Dave has put the canceling clip/cam can be repositioned.

Loosen off the column stalk and tapping the canceling clip/cam round with some sort of drift and mallet/small hammer.

Be careful not to overtighten the four screws that hold the cowling together, and I always find at least one will loosen off with use of the car, and sometimes drop to the floor, so check for tightness after a bit of use, as with all fittings.

No comments about the grease then, must just be me.
Nigel Atkins

First sort the steering wheel alignment as others have noted.

The canceling clip is as Dave noted a rather tight clip fitting that can be carefully drifted into required position - middle of cam operating arms when steering straight ahead.

The indicator switch has a small locating peg that fits into a notch in the outer column.

Oh just noticed some of that is in tiny writing on what Dave listed - was very small on my phone !
richard b

"No disrespect meant Cedric"
-- One good ale will make it ;) I put some because I found some. No idea how and who put some there in the first place...

"Index A is a 'spring' fit to the column. It is only held by friction and can be repositioned without needing to pull the column off the rack"
-- Funny enough, I was not expected you can move the "cancelling cam"... Thanks for making me aware !

Still, after moving the cancelling cam, I will just move my problem to another "angle position" of the steering wheel: I will still find one steering wheel position where I can't actuate the switch because I will have again the collision (where indicate in red).
The collision is not with the cancelling finger, but with the "main body".
= Is it normal ?
= Can you actuate your switch in any position of the steering wheel ?

"You can tell this has happened if left lock and right lock produce different turning circles"
-- That s make a lot of sense. I definitely need to try that !



CH Hamon

Nigel,

I have used a tiny amount of silicon grease to lubricate the cam/clip movement - only a smear.

Cedric, I would highly recommend a book for reference - 'Restoring Sprites and Midgets by Grahame Bristow'
He covers a lot of the problems I find and has system by system electrical diagrams which are much easier to understand than the main diagram.

May have to get a secondhand copy (preloved these days !)

R.
richard b

Cedric,

The pics are at angle so not very clear, the operating clip should be central between the operating cams and central between the operating cams up and down the inner shaft as well i.e full bearing of cams on the clip.

The cams only contact the cam when operated i.e turn signal engaged - they are out of range in normal steering - I think that is what you were meaning ?
richard b

Cedric,
the most important part first, good ale only comes from a barrel (cask) do not fall for modern interpretations or marketing redefinitions. :)

The canceling clip should operate on the fingers of the switch but will push passed at other points, you will hear and see it operate with the cowling off.

Jack the front of the car up enough to make turning the wheels easier but without lifting them off the ground, remove the steering wheel, line things up and then put the wheel back on and check before going on a test run.

Got to be driven to drink now.

Nigel Atkins

Nigel. I don't think a smear of grease will do any hard. Silicone grease as Richard mentioned is plastic compatible.

I expect with modern reproduction indicators the plastic will go brittle after a few years and the cancelling cams will fall off. Whether this happens before or after the contacts burn out is anyone's guess.

Rob
MG Moneypit

Rob

If the car is driven at night, I would suspect the contacts will go first.
Dave O'Neill 2

Back from pub.

Rich, Rob, thanks for the replies, silicone grease I can follow by I think Cedric is getting value out of his grease gun.

Dave, (modern) contact for indicators (hopefully) are used night and day, and mine have been OK so far but not decades of use so far but I must admit I don't use my Midget much in the dark nowadays, I'm still waiting for the problems on the contacts, or headlights not bright, to need relays but I will report when it happens, if the Midget and/or me are still around.

Nigel Atkins

Nigel, it's not the indicator contacts that burn out as they don't carry as much current. It's the headlight main beam/ dipped beam contacts that fail. But if you don't drive much at night then maybe yours will last long enough without the need for adding protective relays.
GuyW

Guy, you're right. I missed out the headlight bit as I wasn't taking my time. I could lie and say I always drive with my headlights on during the day too but I don't, and you're also right I don't do much night driving. When I do I keep getting reminded that I ought to lower the headlights as the mainbeam goes too far so l have to dip the headlights too far in advance for other vehicles. Its on my to do list, it ought to get priority as it doesn't get my hands dirty, but it is a very long and unrewarding list.
Nigel Atkins

Hi,

Thanks for your comments.

I went to check yesterday, between two showers:
- I have the same "stroke" on the steering wheel from straight to full left, as I have from straight to full right. I guess "they" adjusted one TRE as Rob mentioned, without really taking care of having the steering wheel full straight. I will adjust both TRE one day, as I have to do one steering gaiter anyway...
- I did adjust the "cam" too: pretty easy, as Dave mentioned. Still, I have one collision (see picture-the switch can turn a little bit, but not enough to be activated because it is touching the cam): I can't put the indicator if the steering wheel is turn few degrees, on both right and left.
=> Does everybody has the same ?
Except from this, it works fine: activate, self cancellation,....



CH Hamon

Cedric,
if you compare your photo with the one Dave put up from Paul's excellent mgb-stuff site (a site to check for info on Midgets too) it appears that the switch you have sits a lot closer to the canceling clip.

It could be that the switch you have is not the exact model required but if it works for everything else you could just file the plastic down so that it misses the clip leaving the fingers to do their work.

Otherwise it could be that the canceling clip is not the right type but I doubt that but would not know for sure.

Third, the switch is made wrong but again I doubt that (in this case).

As you bought a Lucas what was the Lucas part number (it appears you have your horn push in the centre of the steering wheel)?
Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel,

The picture I took is with the steering wheel rotated few degrees. I did put the cam in the middle of the switch :)

This picture capture the following situation: if you are in a left curve, and want to activate the left indicator; or if you are in a right curve and you want to activate the right indicator. Not possible for me actually due to the collision shown on the picture...
CH Hamon

Do you still have the old switch to compare it with?

It is possible that the Chinese mould maker was not as careful as he/she should have been ;o)
Dave O'Neill 2

So I should be able to activate the switch, whatever is the position of the steering wheel ?

The previous switch was not installed in the index B, which make the "body" of the switch further from the "cam" (the thickness of the index): I guess it was like this to avoid the collision I have when assembling parts back correctly...

Thanks for explaining how it should be :)
CH Hamon

Cedric,
yes.

If you try this at the two positions where the fingers and clip meet you will feel a little resistance until you pass this point or you apply a little more force.

Put up the number of the Lucas switch you bought and DaveO, David Smith, I, or another, can look it up to check it specifies for your model - or I could send you what I've got if it covers post-1970.
Nigel Atkins

I think Cedric has an 'L; reg RWA therefore the switch should be 37H8050.

Here are a couple of pics of my spare (nos Austin Rover boxed) that I hope helps.



richard b

And another


richard b

According to my Lucas parts catalogue, the Lucas (not BMC/BL) part number is 39553 for Midgets from 1971-77.
Dave O'Neill 2

The end of the box also has '3952 Made in UK BO' on the label - box is dated as being 'picked' June 1990 !
richard b

Having found my magnifying glass !

On the other side of the clamp semicircle lugs to my pic is moulded on the left side 39553M and on the right side 4889.
richard b

'4889' would suggest it was made six months before it was picked.
Dave O'Neill 2

- ETA: Rich and Dave posted whilst I was looking for numbers but we seem to agree -more agreeing, what a strange day! -

As always you have be careful about part numbers and cross-referencing with various databases/catalogues.

Lucas part number 39553 on my list is for Lucas Model 119SA (39553D/E) - but - in the 2008 year Lucas catalogue MG Midget 1300, 1969-78! is listed as 39309 with MG Midget 1500, 1975-77 as SQB 118.

So, remember Soap " Confused? You won't be after this week's episode of Soap" to tie in our three numbers -

Lucas SQB118 39553 119SA 37H8050 indicator column switch

Lucas SQB118 column switch
type 119SA
indicator and light switch (without push for horn) for switch with horn push see lucas 39309
replaces / superceeds
Lucas 39553
Austin Rover 37H8050
applications include
MGB GT 1971-76
MG Midget 1500 1975-77
MGB 1971-76
https://www.autoelectricalspares.co.uk/lucas-sqb118-39553-119sa-37h8050-indicator-column-switch-1331-p.asp
Nigel Atkins

One for Guy -
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202795097485

(Also gives me practice of the link shortcut Dave gave me, took only three attempts).



Nigel Atkins

ETA:

Did you buy it Guy after I posted here?

Or someone else here?
Nigel Atkins

Rich,
I've just noticed in your first photo (and second but more light on first photo) it has in the black plastic 119 (big space) SA.
Nigel Atkins

Where did you get all those nice catalogues ? :o
I did buy the book Rich mentioned, on its way :)

The switch I bought: "Lucas SQB118 39553 119SA 37H8050 indicator column switch" from "Auto Electrical Spares"

I guess I will have to put a sort of spacer between the switch and the outer column, to have the switch further from the cancelling cam. I will then not be able to use the index, but tightening the switch on the column properly should be enough to prevent the switch from rotating when activating indicators...

Not everything make sense to me this time, but maybe I bother to much...
CH Hamon

Cedric,
have you over-tightened the clamp on the switch perhaps I think I had a slight gap on mine with a thread or two of the screw showing. Anyway all you need to do is file out the contact area on the plastic as long as the fingers work and you have indicators and they self-cancel. Do not file the plastic locating lug that fits into the column locating cut-out.

Do not put a spacer in as it is not needed and you want the switch to fit inside the cowl without the wires catching and also the switch end locating clip located well into the locating cut-out off the cowling.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, no, column switch not bought by me. I hadn't been following this discussion that closely and hadn't seen your link or the last dozen or so messages.
Anyway I don't need one, - well not for a while I hope!
Not sure why you thought I did?
GuyW

Guy,
I was joking. :)

Anyway I bet you're fully backed up with spare relays. ;)
Nigel Atkins

Ha ha! I missed that one Nigel- went straight over my head. I didn't even duck!!
GuyW

Cedric,
I took the covers off mine in your honour for a 'look see' and took ages getting it back together without rubbing etc !

In the straight ahead steering position - indicators not engaged there is about 3mm clearance between the operating cam and the curved body of the switch.

The cam projects just under 10mm from the face of the inner steering column.

When indicator set to left turn, when the wheel is turned left to about 45 deg the curved body of the switch just about starts to contact the cam.

Hope that helps (not sure you actually still have a problem if it indicates and cancels O.K.) and still turns freely

Hope you enjoy the book - loads of good info.

R.
richard b

Sorry Richard for making you so curious that you had to disassemble your car ! Thanks a lot, really appreciate the measurements.

I need to find the motivation to remove the steering wheel column covers once more to compare with your measurement, and hopefully fix definitely this problem.

(Do enjoy the book, thanks a lot ! Pictures could be bigger though... Anyway, the detail you are interested to see is always the missing one!)
CH Hamon

This thread was discussed between 11/10/2019 and 23/10/2019

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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