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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Having a ball with tie-rod ball joints

I am rebuilding the steering rack as part of a total rehab. As I remember driving the car some 30 years ago I had no problem with the steering. (Yes, it has been sitting that long.) When I disassembled the rack and pinion there was oil in the housing, along with grease, dirt and rust.

After everything was disassembled and wiped down I inspected the tie-rod ball joints. They moved easily, smoothly and I could not detect any play. I thought I had dodged a bullet. Then after a thorough cleaning and degreasing I can now detect some play in the joint by holding ball assembly on a solid surface and pulling up on the shaft. I cannot see any movement but I can feel and hear a slight click.

After reading the archives and Barney Gaylord’s article on rebuilding the MGA steering rack, I would just as soon skip all of the fun and excitement. Should I be concerned about the play in the ball joint? It couldn’t be more than a thousandth or two.

My vintage Bentley manual says, “The ball joints linking the tie-rods to the rack must be a reasonably tight sliding fit without play.” My ball joints don’t exactly fit that definition. The shaft will flop back and forth when I hold the ball housing and tilt it from side to side. It is nothing like the tight sliding fit of a new tie-rod end. I’ve never had one of these things apart before and I don’t know how loose is too loose.

By the way, the previous owner had the driver side ball joint serviced. It appears that the boot may have been torn at one time. Most all of the rust and crud was on the driver side. Whoever did the service back then did not have the proper tools, which will be the case today. It appears that the assembly was heated because of the discoloration and a pipe wrench used to unscrew the cap as evidenced by the gouges left behind. What they did do, however, was to grind flats on the ball seat housing which would make it much easier to hold in a vice, perhaps lessening the chance of distorting the piece, which could make it even more difficult to remove. The photo shows how these flats were ground.



Paul Noeth

hi Paul
I dismantled this joint on mine. I made up a socket with two hardened pins in it to locate the holes and a second tool with two teeth in it to locate on the recesses on the other part of the joint. Fixing the former in a decent vice enabled the other piece to be turned and undone. It was VERY tight and let go with a fair old "crack" when it finally came undone! Good luck!
dave
David Cox

Hi Dave,

How did you make the second tool and what did it look like? I am not a machinist but I do have a drill press and a MIG welder. I could come up with the first tool, but I don't have any idea how to make the second one.

How tight was the ball joint when you were done? Did the shaft flop back and forth under its own weight? Did you destroy any of the spacers in the process? I assume they can be cut from shim stock by hand if need be, but I am not sure how to get a nice neat hole in the center without having some sort of punch.

Attached is a drawing of the tools from the Bentley book.


Paul Noeth

I guess I was wrong, I think I can make the second tool. What I need to do is get an appropriate piece of steel plate, cut out the rough shape, drill a hole in the middle of the head, carefully cut out the opening and then weld on a couple of pieces of tool steel the correct thickness. I'll bet that will work. See the drawing.

But I could get on with the rebuild if I did not have to make the tool. Any opinions on a couple of thousandths slop in the ball joints?


Paul Noeth

If it's really a couple of thou, don't worry about it. In theory, it might wear a little faster than if snuggish, but it's a matter of a million miles vs 1.5 million if you keep it clean and lubed with oil. Another theory says that the looseness will allow the oil in better and make it last longer!

Refitting worn joints to snug can be a can of worms, if the joint has worn out-of-spherical. You get heavy binding in some positions, not good. Joints can be refitted tight by lapping, but it's a lot of work.

Note that grease as suggested by some (and used in later racks!) will not lubricate the ball joint over long periods - I have dismantled racks full of grease - with dry and rusty ball joints.

FRM
FR Millmore

In the UK, 'play' in the steering rack end joints can be an MOT test fail..... Apart from the annoying knocking noise from the steering and up the column, it could lead to more rapid wear.

Now, we don't do 'average' mileage in our cars any more, 12000 / 15000, but still, steering is an essential part of the car and as such should be cared for.

I usually shim / machine the rack end joints so that there is a slight 'nip' to them when built DRY. I then lube with gear oil and re-assemble. No problems from then on.....

Mark.
M T Boldry

Indeed Mark, but the operative term is "a couple of thousandths" I take that as .002-,005, which is what is just perceptible to most people. At those dry clearances, there will likely be no perceptible movement with heavy oil in the joint. Note that Paul said that he felt no play when the joints were wet.

I am prone to setting things up "just so", but I am also prone to having a whole lot of stuff undone and nothing to drive, hence my recommendation to leave it.

In any event, if it actually winds up with " the annoying knocking noise from the steering and up the column", he can easily pull the rack and fix it in the wintertime!

FRM
FR Millmore

Mark,

Do you mean by "...so there is a slight 'nip' to them when built DRY.", that they don't move smoothly? That they slightly catch or bind as they move?

Mine move freely when dry. There is a You Tube video that shows a test for good vs bad tie-rod ball joints. It is on a VW but the principle is the same. Mine will fall like the second example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MkaagWF8ws

I am inclined to go with FRM's suggestion and not worry about it. Honestly I can't see any movement, but I can hear it. On the other hand the rack is on the bench and there is no better time.

Not having the tools bothers me the most. It seems so barbaric to heat them red and wack them with a pipe wrench. I am afraid I would damage them and be worse off.

I'd consider buying new tie-rod assemblies but I've heard the new ones are not only expensive ($138US from Moss)but also inferior. Is there anyone out there that has the correct tools and would lease them to me for a few days? (Signing over my beloved midget or first born as collateral if they are not returned.)
Paul Noeth

I found a set of proper tools to split the ball joints. I was looking for someone who had the tools that I could borrow or rent without success. Then I came across some archived web pages from the way-back machine that contained an email address of someone who previously made reproductions of the tie-rod tools. I sent a request in hopes that the email address was still good and I got a response in short order saying that the tools were no longer produced, but that 3 sets were still available for sale.

While the tools are expensive, and justifiably so, they cost less than buying new (but inferior) tie-rod end assemblies. The set came in today and the ball ends were split without any undue stress. The right tools make all the difference. Even though my project is only a lowly Midget, I just couldn't bring myself to abuse it with a pipe wrench.

If anyone is interested in the two remaining sets, Robb Nortier is the gentleman who made the tools and his email is britool51 at hotmail dot com.


Paul Noeth

Hey paul,

If you dont mind me asking Id be courious as to what those tools set you back, ball park figure?

I was never able to seperate mine and took a short cut, and took the rack to a machine shop and had them seperate the freaken thing, took them 15 minutes and cost me $20...Best money I ever spent...But Id like to feel secure that I could do the same, If I ever have to agian

Thanks

Prop
Prop

Prop, I don't mind telling you but I don't want to post it on a public forum. It is sort of like I am quoting a price for him and I would rather have him tell you directly. Drop him an email, I am sure he would be more that happy to give you a price. He lives in Grand Rapids, MI which is only about a 100 miles from my house. I figured if I could find the tools somewhere they would be on the other side of the earth. How funny.

Wow, $20 bucks to split them. You can't beat that. Did you just use a drift to tighten them? I guess they don't have to be as tight as when they came from the factory. The retainer will keep them from unscrewing so I don't see the need for tightening them to the extreme. Maybe the factory had some really big guy who was training for the Strongest Man Competition putting them together, or they just tightened them down hard enough to compress the shims for the correct preload.

On one side I had a .010 and two .002 shims. When I remove one .002 shim and tighten normally the joint is still too loose. When I remove the second one the joint locks up. I wonder if the factory didn't set them up a little loose and then just tighten the caps until the play was gone?

That brings me to the next problem. The shims on the driver side, the side that was previously torn apart, are completely destroyed. I know I can get some shim stock at the local industrial supply house, but how does one cut the inside hole accurately and neatly? I can cut the outside diameter with a pair of snips but not sure how to do the inside, especially on the .010 shim. Neither Moss or Vicky carry them. Does anyone know where they can be purchased?

Paul
Paul Noeth

If you have access to a lathe you can make a punch from some steel tube.
Trevor Jessie

Trevor,

I wish I did have access to a lathe, but I don't. Not only would I be able to make a punch, but it could be used to split the ball joints as well. http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/steering/sr202.htm
Paul Noeth

Hey Paul...Ill drop him an email. to tighten it I got one of thos "C" shaped wrench with a little hook on the end...I cant remember the name of the wrench.

For shimming, I thought about grinding off the female cup a bit like the websites says to do, Instead I got some brass shim stock and used a dime as a templete and cut out a disk with a pair of sissors and placed it behind the cap ... ten removed one of the shims where the male/female cups screw togather, when the whole thing went togather i made the fit snug and stiff, not a problem scence...I did replace all those fiddle parts as well

what the machine shop did was heat the joint up and used copper sheet to wrap around the wrench contact areas put it in a vise and used a pipe wrench with a 5 foot long cheater bar...it took them several trys but it finally poped free, and no damage to the assembly...Watching it was obvious I was NEVER going to seperate the ball joints the way I had been trying for the past 5 days... So I learned my leason, from now on if I ever have to build a rack, Im not even going to bother, Im just going to take it to the machine shop and let them break it open...esp. at that price...for $20 its not even worth getting my hands dirty

Prop
Prop

Prop, putting a shim behind the cup would work well. I could do that on the passenger side, but on the driver side that was previously opened, the shims were damaged to the point of no return. They came out in pieces when I split the ball joint. I will have to make some shims for that side. I might use the shim behind the cup trick to get the fit just right. Good idea.

Paul
Paul Noeth

I see your point paul...It sucks to be you.

I wonder if you got some aluminum or brass shim stock heated it up to make it pliable and then folded in half and cut out new shims with a pair of sharp scissors. then unfold the new shim....sorta like making paper snow flakes when we were kids, granted you might have to make several to fill the gap...then there is treavors idea of using a piece of pipe and have the shim shaved off the end...I can imagine a decent machine shop wouldnt charge much...maybe 10-20 dollars

A fast google search on metal shims came up with this and many like it

http://www.metalshims.com/customshims.html

Prop
Prop

Prop,

<<paul...It sucks to be you>>

I haven't been whining too much, have I? I was hoping someone would come forward and say, "You can get them here, the part # is this, and they cost a nickle each." Since that ain't going to happen, the next thing is to get the best ideas you can on how to make them yourself.

Trevor's idea of making a punch seems to be the most practical. But that will still involve finding someone with a lathe. I don't think he meant to shave a shim off the end of the pipe. I don't think you can cut a slice a few thousands thick without tearing it up. But I'm not a machinist so I don't know. The shim behind the cup seems like the best answer in most cases, unless the existing shims are unusable and the cap is too tight.

I've solved my problem by asking a friend of a friend to help me out. He owns an abrasive waterjet cutting business and he is going to custom cut the shims for me. That helps me, but it doesn't help the next person who comes along with the same problem.

Prop, if you ever need to split your ball joints again and the machine shop can't do it for some reason, let me know, I've got the right tools and I am sure we can work something out.

Paul
Paul Noeth

Sorry Paul.... I was not infering that your whiining,,, Far from it, I meant it sucks to be you because your up a Sh*t creek and your trolly motor is out of gas...LOL.

Did you give that company a call..."Metal shims.com" Im sure they can make you some.

Luckly paul I rebuilt my rack about 2 years ago, so hopefully Im set for another 39 years, But I appericate the offer... If you want, do you want to sell your kit, Im sure I can put it to use, as my car is always in some adaptation of modifications from one postion to another...let me know, other wise Ill give your contact a shout in the next couple weeks for one of his last 2 kits.


Btw ...Just for clarification, I put the shim behind the "CAP" not the cup...I debated with myself about using a ground down dime as a shim, but was advised to use brass, as that will not create wear like a hard metal, because its soft, and NON-splintery...UN-like a ground down dime

Prop...Never met a tool I didnt want to adaopt...Prop
Prop

<<<Btw ...Just for clarification, I put the shim behind the "CAP" not the cup...>>>

Prop, I think we mean the same thing, we are just victims of sloppy terminolgy. What I called the "cup" is actually called the "Ball Seat" in the attached drawing from the Bently manual.

#19. Tie-rod.
#20. Bell [sic] Housing (female).
#21. Ball seat.
#22. Shim.
#23. Ball Housing (male).
#31. Lock Washer.

So the #22 shims are what I need to replace, and I would consider putting a dime size shim under the ball seat to get the compression just perfect on the bell housing. (I am pretty sure 'bell housing' is a mis-print in the book, but it is shaped like a bell so I don't know.)

I do have shims being cut with an abrasive waterjet and they should ship out this week.

Like you, I've never met a tool I didn't like. (Well except for some cheap Chinese stuff.) I am going to hang on to the ball joint wrench as long as I own the car, and I have owned it for about 37 years now so I probably won't get rid of it any time soon. It's a nice chunk of steel. But the offer to work out a loan still stands if you ever need it.

Paul


Paul Noeth

This thread was discussed between 14/07/2009 and 23/07/2009

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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