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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - First classic. First problems....

Hi everyone, thankyou for the comments on my first thread.

I picked up the car today, and it made it 6 miles before splutting to a stop on the motorway. unfortunately there was not a lot i could do. and i had to have the car recovered (144!!) my dad has since checked the car over and thinks that the fuel pump is running very weak and when checking the pump filter gauze there were clumps of rubber, I'm guessing that's deteriorated fuel pipe. after my dad had cleaned and replaced some of the pipes he managed to get the car started but its only running with the choke on. Does any one have any suggestions on what i should do? and what i should replace? also here is a link to the Ebay advert, do you think the seller has any responsibility? as it was listed as "runs very well with very good oil pressure" http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130644225880?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Any advice would be great!









A Cole

The fact that it let you down after 6 miles doesn't necessarily mean that the seller intentionally misled you. It rather depends what the actual problem was/is.
The best thing at this stage is a step by step methodical check over the car so that you know what you have got, and hopefully so that you cure the problem.
Nigel will rightly suggest you carry out a full service. But don't start to replace items unnecessarily at random or you could well just be wasting money.

It does sound like dirt in the fuel supply from disintegrating fuel pipes. But how much fuel did you have in when it stopped? Sometimes the fuel gauges on these cars are not the most precise. Mine runs out when the needle shows around 1/4 tank full. Its always been like that!
Guy

I had just put 25Litres of super unleaded in it. would the disintegrating rubber be able to get past the pumps gauze? I'm thinking i need to buy a new fuel pump and prehaps install an inline fuel filter before the pump? and clean the carbs out again. and seeing how i get on from there. what do you think? is that a good place to start?
A Cole

A Cole,

have look at my post on your previous thread because that is where to start

you've also got a converted car so there may be a little more to it plus if it's been laid-up for a while or not used much that's on top

don't dispair these are sturdy little cars and can take a lot of abuse

people here will help you, they may not always agree with each otherbut there's usually more than one method

get that Drivers Handbook it will help you no end

the car, not just the engine and carbs, probably needs setting up

most service work and a lot of repair work is just cleaning, lubricating and securing

first thing check the battery for distilled water level (in each cell) and its charge as a battery (and all its connections and leads) in good condition will help you whereas a battery (and all its connections and leads) in poor condition will hinder you more than you'd expect

I can help you with general notes if you want them but getting the Driver's Handbook and starting the 36k-mile service at least checking the items if not changing them will get you and the car started I'm sure
Nigel Atkins

sorry A Cole I missed your last post

another thing you will learn is to take a tea break and consider things in a logical way

you are understandably upset, I think most of us have pick up a car soon to find problems with it, it's upsetting and loads of things rush through your mind

25 litres would just possibly fill the tank, could be crud from the tank, could be rubber disintergrating before the pump, could be other crud and not rubber

you need to check in the cold light of day

your pump is on the engine but possibly you have an electric pump - photos need of engine bay and pump

you need to find were the crud is coming from it may be more than one sourse or just one sourse then sort this clean out everything and check

if your pumps is electric you can turn it on and get it to pump onto a large clear container instead of the carbs, if engine pump without priming handle then other methods

these cars are very easy about the engine running or not as it's only usually to do with electric or fuel
Nigel Atkins

Ah, I had forgotten it was a 1500 in disguise!
It should have a mechanical pump. One fairly common fault is for the rubber diaphragm inside the pump to split. In this condition, it will still pump, but like a human "hole in the heart" fuel leaks back across the diaphragm so it won't build up the full pressure or flow required. Typically it will run at tickover but falter as soon as any increase in revs is needed. Pulling out the choke helps to some extent but isn't a cure.

Undo the centre screw on the top of the pump and lift the top off to check the diaphragm condition. I once did a roadside repair of one with a piece of a pair of latex gloves. Got me going again and lasted a few hundred miles!

Nigel, what's this 36K service you keep referring to? The schedule in my handbook only lists 3K, 6K and 12K. It must be right, surely?
Guy

Cheers for the fast replys, the pump is mechanical and the diaphragm appears to be in good condition. Do the pumps loose suction over time? Ill have another fiddle tomorrow, and prehaps fit an inline filter to avoid the crud from getting to the pump
M A Cole

Echo Guys comments.

Don't whatever you do, go out and buy a load of parts for a full service. You'll probably be wasting a lot of time, money, and decent servicable parts, with oodles of life left in them.

Remember, this car is already pretty old, and will have had all kinds of parts replaced at varying intervals, and not in accordance with the so called service intervals, written in blood, and carved in stone, in the golden book of love and truth. AKA the owners manual. :)

Also as Guy says, dont trust the fuel gauge until you know how accurate it is.

I acknowledge in this case that you had just put in 25 ltrs of liquid gold, but there was something else in the ebay ad, you may have missed.

"fuel gauge sender needs replacing."

If they knew this, then they must have experienced incorrect readings, and very possibly allowed the tank to empty on an occasion or two.

Inside an old tank is a lot of crud. Run it too low and it heads towards the fuel pump.

A filter will stop the crud reaching the pump, but if it clogs, it will also stop the engine.

I suggest you inspect the inside of the tank. You can avoid removing the tank to take a look if you take the filler neck off and look straight in.
Lawrence Slater

Guy,
the car, like most of our cars, isn't as standard so I'm not assuming it has a mechanical pump or even just one pump!

but full marks to you for being the only one to spot and actually question and ask about the Driver's Handbook not actually show a 36k-mile service in the scedule but it does have the later Triumph type steering rack at 30k-miles or 36 months

and

* 36 months could easily coincide with a third 12k- mile service

* Driver's Handbook also has change of brake fluid at 18 months or 18k miles so again could easily coincide

* examine or replace hydraulic fluid seals and flexible hoses every 3 years or 36k-miles

some people will only dismiss and not investigate, you can understand without becoming a follower

as a starting base the good book can not be beaten as you learn, progress and experience a lot more then you can adapt from its information and schedule granted with the quality of some service parts now it's best not to replace some bits
Nigel Atkins

ETA: Hi M A Cole (A Cole or his dad) hi either way

in line filter usually is added between pump and first carb

you could put filters all over the place but obviously you need to be able to get at them and be able to clean or change them for them to be effective

the mechanical pumps I believe generally continue to work ok unless they have a fault

I concede that some parts don't need or you're best not to replace because of the poor quality of some new parts but carrying out a check of those parts by running through the service schedule is a very good idea

some parts can last for a very long time but that doesn't mean they're in good condition or serving the car well

most classic car owners don't know how well their cars could be because they never experienced a well sorted, well set up version of their car in good condition

I've no doubt an average between mine and Lawrence's approach would have a classic running in well above average condition because where we do agree is in regularly using the car so that you iron out the wrinkles and learn the cars fully capabilities which will bring servicing and parts replacement (we just disagree on the when)

the Driver's Handbook is full of information that will help the vast majority of owners and certainly new owners
Nigel Atkins

Just a thought that may help you identify you're car's problem quickly.

Do all this carefully and safely.

Get a can of fresh petrol and a hose, run the hose from the can to the fuel pump (it helps if you put the can higher than the pump) and run the car like that. If all is well then you can eliminate the fuel pump onwards through and including the engine as having a problem, and it will thus be from the tank to the pump with the problem.

Hope that helps. I always seem to post late when my brain isn't at full chat so hope it makes sense.
J White

That'll be fun, driving down the road with a can of petrol sitting on the roof or bonnet, or passenger seat, with a hose going from it to the pump. :)

Just the kind of thing I might have tried, if I had been in this situation, and had thought of it. There's always 999.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, that would be daft - you get the passenger to hold the can at scuttle height (I'm not kidding either).
David Smith

you could just stop in the garage and set light to it :)

anyone remember seeing A Cole's car for sale? - or am I thinking of another one? (probably not thinking at all)
Nigel Atkins

Cheers for the later reply, i was tucked up in bed after the busy day i had! i have ordered the driver handbook, but I'm guessing i will not see that untill later in the week. so, i do really want to crack on with the car today, i will give the car the full service as soon as the book arrives. what can i be doing today? checking the tank? changing the old fuel pipes? i beleave the car had been stood for a year, and had only been driven a few miles the week before i got her.

And just to clear up on my username, its was always ment to be M A Cole (the M stands for Morgan) but when i registered it cut the M off for some reason :)
M A Cole

So we call you Morgan then ?

Given what you know l would continue to focus on the fuel supply side which you can check out whilst waiting for your handbook. Trace the lines back under the car to the fuel tank. There should be a rubber hose section over the rear axle. This may be poor, or may leak at the clipped ends. Leaks don't always drip fuel out, but can draw air in when the pump is running, which reduces the fuel output from the pump. Halfords sell lengths of suitable fuel hose and the right sized clips so you can get what is needed on a Sunday. Obviously don't replace it if it looks good, but if doubtful it may have deteriorated internally.

Reading the advert, it sounds like it came from a good caring home. You could ring, not to complain, but to ask advice. Previous owner will know the car best and may be able to help.

Where about a in Lancashire are you ?
Guy

If the car has been standing still for a year with that little fuel in it I would change all rubber fuel hoses and the filter.

If a car has been standing for some time with so little fuel it could have corroded the tank.
This crud will by now have found its way in to the filter and almost blocked it.

The other option is that the hoses have deteriorated on the inside while looking fine on the outside.
The higher ethanol content in modern fuel will do that to older hoses.
In this case you should also clean the carburetor floats and needles as there will be crud in them.

As the hoses and filter are cheap and it always is a good thing to know they are in good order replace them all.
No need to try dangerous things with lose cans of petrol.

Onno K

Hi Morgan,

at least at the end of the day disconnect your battery take it out of the car and check it's cells for didtilled water level, top up if required and fully charge the battery over as long as required or possible

whilst its charging check, clean, secure and protect all leads and connections including the earth leads and straps - there could be two, one from bellhousing to body at very bottom of car and another faround an engine mount - but they might be placed elsewhere or only one

you can use the archive here to search on the subject but bear in mind your car has been altered and I'm assuming it's still a 1500 engine and fittings

that's another point don't assume - that what is fitted to your car is original or correct or is fitted or fully working correctly always check (Handbook will here)

you could also check, clean, secure and potect all other electric wires and connections

for fittings, hinges, cables ect.- clean, secure and lubricate

also cleaning the whole car inside and out including the engine bay will help you you will notice more about the car and it will help with the work you'll be doing

during the weeek you can research the model - I can send you general notes that I bet will make a lot of sense to you by the end of next week

you could also call into a motor shop and get any bit you haven't got in the garage like:-
· light oil
· (thin) spray lubricant
· penetrating/releasing fluid (WD 40 is not that good)
. carb cleaning spray
· silicone lubricant (for rubber, nylon, ect)
· electric contact cleaner
· anti-seize assembly compound (like Copper Ease)
· electrical sealing/protecting products (go find)
· all purpose grease (and gun)
· cheap artist brushes - to apply Copper Ease, grease, ect.
· cleaning materials

you've got plenty you could do - I know it doesn't seem like it now and you want to do it but getting the engine running isn't that important at the moment, it will run and it'll start and run easier will a little work on other stuff - but I know you'll feel easier if you just get it started for now

cheers, Nigel
Nigel Atkins

Hi Morgan,

You'll very soon notice the different opinions on here of what's good, bad, and bloody stupid.

Me, I fall into the camp of doing what others might call bloody stupid, however it has kept my '66 Sprite on the road since I bought it in 1977.

If you know your way around a tool box, you'll soon develop your own attitude to the car. They are a very long way from rocket science so have fun with it.

And today, with the Sun out, if you can bodge it going, then take it for a drive, and sort out the bits and pieces later. :)

David, ha ha, can you imagine getting stopped these days by the constabulary, and trying to explain. "Well, it's like this officer ------------" --- "Your nicked sonny". LOL.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence
I to do the "stupid" and " dangerous things to find faults and fix them.

I do not think however that it is good advice to a novice classic owner with limited tinkering knowledge.

Therefore I sometimes advocate the " do as I say don't do as I do" motto.
Onno K

Lawrence:
1. there's fewer and fewer constabulary out there to see and stop us, fortunately
2. any that does had better not call me sonny - or grandad for that matter; I'll settle for sir...
David Smith

Yup, David, I'm way past sonny too, more to the pity. And your right about the lack of PC smith on the scene, more to the pity I often think, --- as a mature sensible adult LOL.

Onno, people used to ask if it was dangerous doing a ton on an old british bike, and don't I think it's a bit risky over the age of 55, going quite so fast down black runs.

My answer was and still is, -- only if I fall over. :)

I prefer to think that people can make up their own minds about risk. Probably, it was where and when I was born, when you learnt -- or not -- by your mistakes. If someone never takes a risk, and never comes a cropper, how will they ever know when something is dangerous?

Nature, or god, dependant on your preference, put adrenaline in us, I figure I might make good use of it. :), I'm sure Morgan and his father are wise enough to be able to judge the degree of risk for themselves. :)
Lawrence Slater

Looks a nice little car for the money - just some teething troubles to sort out.
Hugh Alison

Lawrence
I have seen people from way before H&S became a concept start with dismanteling the rear suspention while the car was still standing on it.
Just because some one said "sure you can remove that axle"

I am from the period when 15 children could easly be carried in a normal station wagon and if those kids would say to the driver that their sigaret smelled bad they would be told to stop naging.

I'd love a bit more sense in people these days but expect the worst
Onno K

When I got my midget 3 years ago I only got 2 miles down the road before I had to call AA out. Needed a new rotor arm . Felt like leaving the car on the M1. But now so glad I didn't. I love working on it, things will get better.
Neil Allen

OK So I'll post this earlier....

The petrol can technique is to be used on a STATIONARY car. The OP stated that it only ran with choke so one can presume it doesn't rev up. If you use the can as described then at least you'll know if the car will achieve a reasonable range of revs.

For the record I may....ok HAVE done stupid things in the past but wouldn't pull a stunt like that on a moving car.
J White

I wouldn't let it worry you J White, it was me who got the stick from Onno, for deliberately misinterpreting your suggestion. :).

But hey, a car behaves differently under load, I really would have tried something like that, had the right circumstances arisen, and had I thought of it. And judging by Davids comment, he may well have been there already.

Onno, you remind me of a time, when I was in my Grandads Vauxhall wyvern, and had to open the window and throw up. I was always car sick as a passenger, but roll up ciggy smoke in a car, used to make me heave. He wasn't pleased with the resultant brown/pink mess on his rear door. My Grandmother said, "See Frank, I told you the boy looked ill". LOLOLOL.

Lovely car though. It was a bronze colour I seem to remember, and he loved it. Here's an example.


Lawrence Slater

So i have fitted an inline filter today and removed the carbs, when taking the fuel bowl off i noticed there was sludge in the bottom of the bowls so I'm guessing the jets are blocked up which will be causing my fuel starvation problem. although i will clean the needles, would it be worth replacing them with a richer set of needles? would there be any gain? the car has a fairly free flowing exhaust and when the penny's stack up i may treat it to a set of pancake k & N filters. the car also seems to be arcing across the ignition coil, any thoughts? just thinking aloud but could this be an earthing problem?

cheers

Morgan
M A Cole

If you are referring to HT arcing, then insulation is suspect.

Could just be dirt providing a path, or a crack, with dirt in it. Can you put up a pic of exactly where you say it's arcing?
Lawrence Slater

unfortunately the car is at my work at the moment. i could take a picture tomorrow, but i can try to explain, it seemed to be arcing between the two cables and when i blocked its path with a rag it arced from one cable to the engine bay, what do suggest? clean all the connections and around the area, inspect for cracks etc and it should be all good? i don't mean to ask so many question but it's helping me get to grip with my car :)
M A Cole

It sounds like you're talking about the distributor cap, rather than the coil. Low tension (lt) circa 12 volts wont arc like that. Hi tension (ht) circa 40thou to 100thou Volts will.

Oil with dirt in it makes a great conductor. Cracked or split HT lead insulation too.

Put up a pic of the whole engine and the distributor and coil, when you can, and that will tell a lot. :)
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 18/02/2012 and 19/02/2012

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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