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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Ethanol in petrol

Apologies if this subject has been discussed before. I started my Sprite recently and after investigating the strong smell of petrol,I discovered fuel literally pouring through the rubber hoses feeding the caburettors. The hoses had originally been supplied by Burlen through a third party. After discussing the problem with Burlen they told me that there was no doubting that ethanol was the cause. Incidently the car had been in the garage all winter and never started in that time. If indeed ethanol is the cause of the rotted hoses will damage have also been done to the diaphram in the SU fuel pump?

John.
John Stephens

Don't know what sort of crap hoses those are. We have had ethanol for over 20 years, and all fuel hoses deal with it. And SU pump diaphragms.

FRM
FR Millmore

depending on how old your fuel hoses are it could be them partly (or wholely) to blame as I've had new fuel hoses from various sources over the last 6 years that have leaked

I've found the Goodyear 6mm x 3mm hose fits the carbs better than the 1/4" stuff I've had before and I'd guess being new stuff will be up to the ethanol

I got it from Halfords off the reel

you can check out if it's up to standard if you want, I had to buy it as a distress purchace again

G4509 Goodyear Fuel/Emission - DIN 73379-1 - 6.0 mm X 3 mm - 2B >NBR/PET/CSM<

I've had trouble with rubber gaiters, TREs boots, door and window seals and they had nothing to do with the ethanol in petrol

check the Archives for what it might or might not have done to your pump as ethanol in petrol has been covered, one of Prop's favourite subjects

just for a change and to spare you I wont go on about leaving a car unused and for such a long time as over winter

ETA: FRM posted as I was typing, so you'll be seeing another side to the debate from our posts
Nigel Atkins

Damn ethonial....

I had ti chunk out a huge chunk of fuel hose last year...as to yiur carbs...if its blowing out the vents...its the float needle... You will find a white powdery crystal and its hard to clean out...but thats whats making the float needle stick... If you cant find ethonial free fuel, you will need to mix in sta-bil fuel additive, as the fuel is so bad it. Will actually go bad in 3 weeks

The ethoniol fuel just sucks... feel for you, i really do, hang in there...its only getting worse
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hi Nigel

I like your 'distress purchase', will add it to my repertoire......

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Funny, I have fuel here from last year in a can, and from 2 or 3 years ago in tanks - works fine. I don't know what your problem is Prop, but it ain't ethanol. About 1990, there was a lot of problem on the order of your complaints, but that has long gone, and we had ethanol before, during, and after that. Is Jeff City really that far behind? (On the occasion of my sole visit, I got gas and it worked - 1993 maybe)

FRM
FR Millmore

FRM, that's very interesting, because I've been told that we have a small amount of ethanol in petrol in the UK. I left my Sprite in my garage from October 2008 until March 2011, with aabout a 1/4 tank. It fired first time.

So maybe your right, we don't have to fear ethanol after all?

What's the concensus? ----- Is there one?
Lawrence Slater

I have not had any fuelling problems. Pipes, pump and carbs working normally. Nothing has required changing since the rebuild in 2009

I think some of the more recent rubber items (careful!) gaiters, windscreen seal etc seem more 'plastic' to touch but I have not had any problems so far.
Bob Beaumont

Experience rules, 20 years of it is hard to argue with.
And I recall 100% ethanol used in speedway machines here in the '60's being the fuel of envy amongst budding boy racers.

For what it's worth we have a 10% blend available here for a few years, and testing for motorsport approval revealed a point higher in MON than its 98 Octane competitors. So I've used it in preference ever since. No problems apart from on fill-up which obviously got the dregs of the filling stations underwater tanks ... and an apology and a free tank of petrol in apology.
Paul Walbran

Hi Peter,
distress purchase is a standard sales/marketing term

it's not the same as purchaces that cause distress, I know as I've had plenty of them
Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel I think you should start a thread so people can 'fess' up to either distress purchase or purchase distress , should keep us all going for years :)


Re fuels, I too have stored fuel for a period of two years in plastic cans and it worked fine, the petrol in my 'home' generator is three years old and the genny fires up fine once every two months for testing.
At work we have noticed, since the introduction of leadfree fuels, disintegration of fuel lines, pressure regulators and carb seals, we haven't seen soggy pump seals yet. It seems to be the 'rubber' used in new fuel components isn't always up to the job, it may well depend where the parts were made?

We have, over a period of years, increased the CR of road going B heads and found improvements, this seems to show modern fuels have better performance than older ones. We have also needed to increase max advance beyond 30 degrees for Bs compared to 28 ish around 8 years ago. Crs remain the same for A series engines as we have always pushed the limits for crisp performance, we run slightly more advance than we used to. Advancing timing implies the fuel is burning a little slower and probably less liable to detonate. Maybe the ethanol works well or at least ok with all the other chemicals in petrol, remembering petrol is not 'pure' but a cocktail. We used to add toluene to petrol as an anti detonant.

The following is from;
http://www.scotcherracefuels.com.au/adelaide-race-fuels.html

Ethanol As A Fuel

Ethanol has lower energy content than petrol, which can mean that ethanol blends have slightly lower fuel economy than conventional petrol. However, because ethanol blends are still made from at least 90% petrol, the difference is unlikely to be noticeable and less than the typical difference that results from natural variations to driving conditions.

There is an interesting footer on the webpage which describes the effects of ethanol on older fuel systems, esp clogging fuel filters by loosening deposits.


Toluene Is A Common Octane Boosting Component

Toluene (methyl benzene) gives about 1 octane number boost for each 5% added and the mixture may need to be slightly richer also. The higher octane allows the use of a higher compression ratio for more power. Toluene has a high carbon content that may lead to sooty spark plugs so don’t assume that this indicates an overly-rich mixture. Toluene is also a good solvent, and high concentrations affect rubber and plastic components in the fuel system.





Peter

Peter Burgess Tuning

Don't you hate it when new words are invented? I use a hygrometer to measure humidity for my flow bench work,it has two thermometers, it works on rate of cooling of a thermometer with a damp wick, the temp varies with rate of evapouration of water....100% humidity no evapouration and no difference between the wet and the dry thermometer....0% humidity max difference.

I notice the website I linked above uses the word hydroscopic for ability of a substance to absorb water, this word does not exist as it is a misspelling of hygroscopic or maybe misshearing and then typing of the word?


Pet hate done for the day :)

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Peter,
Pretty sure that source article was a mis-spelling. Or rather a mistake that a spell checker didn't pick up on.

Its not a new word. A Hydroscope is a device for looking under water. I used the term 40 years ago as a fancy way of describing a bucket with a glass bottom, used for looking at water beasties creeping around the stony beds of streams in N Wales (I was at Bangor Uni, studying Ecology!)
Guy Weller

Peter -
Correct re Hydro/Hygro, although the OED does list "Hydroscope as syn. for Hygroscope", but as Obsolete, c 1721. But I doubt they knew that! Both forms mean a device for determining humidity, or as "hygroscopic" adj. form, a substance that sensibly changes form with humidity change. So unless you can see that the stuff is different, that word is not right as well. Something like Hydro/hygro-philic might do (which isn't in the book either!). "Hydro"is noted as a combining form used in created or adopted words loosely based on Greek which have something to do with water, to paraphrase a lot of fine print.

Paul- Race fuel is normally methanol, a different stuff = wood alcohol. Ethanol is drinkin' juice, seems a shame!

Pumps here are marked "May contain up to 10% ethanol" which is the legal standard, but it means you do not know, and the gas station does not know and/or will not tell, what you are actually getting. And they will lie to you, as we proved in a Pennzoil lab down the road from me. It has been around since the mid 70's, but constantly spreading. There is much talk about increasing the limit to 15%, but that apparently <will> cause trouble, so they are now looking at gas with date ranges for years of car suited.

I have observed, and others have confirmed, approximately 10% reduction in fuel economy with this stuff. This is not in accord with the chemistry, but might have something to do with FI system calibration at various development stages. Mine are early 90s Mazdas. But it amounts to a 10% increase in fuel taxes for me!

An issue I have mentioned before is that odd things happen to the fuel supply sometimes. At least some of this is due to organized crime (other than govt). They get paid (very well) to dispose of hazardous waste; if it will burn, they dump it in fuel supplies. So they don't have to pay to dispose of it, but they do sell it at fuel prices - double up cash! Since what it is is both unknown and variable, it gets strange. We had a situation a few years ago locally, where fuel pumps and tank sending units were destroyed on many cars here. I never heard the result of the numerous investigations, but certainly, dealers, car companies, and local refineries were paying tow and repair bills on dead customer cars.

Maybe Prop got some of that - I reckon meth labs would find fuel tanks a good disposal site, and there are evidently a lot of those in the Midwest.

FRM
FR Millmore

Hi Guy

Have you been to the Sea Zoo at Maryport? It is run by long term friend and MG/Healey customer Mark Vollers, I first visited his Sea Zoo he had established in Anglesey, he has now moved on and established the one in Maryport as a new challenge. Plenty of use for a glass bottomed bucket.

http://www.coastaquarium.co.uk/


Now then FR, how about a recipe for octane booster? We cannot obtain our favourite, Aldon Automotive booster as the manufacturers do not want to supply a mere 10000 litres!

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Peter-
No idea!
A while ago I looked into it a bunch, and there are things. But the DEA, as Protectors of the Public Health and Morals, have made a vast number of formerly used race fuel additives into listed and controlled substances, so it is not worth the hassle unless you have serious need and serious resources to back it up. All to do with the meth heads. No more DIY chem experiments allowed! We used to go to the Pharmacist (Chemist), who would ask you some questions to see if you were an idiot, give you some advice about not blowing up the neighborhood, and send you on your way with all sorts of packets and flasks to play with.

FRM
FR Millmore

Spill the beans, we will have a play and report back should we survive :)

PS do we have to prove we are idiots or prove we are not idiots?

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

FRM got me doubting my own memory, so I looked it up. And sure enough a Hydroscope is as I described. And Hydroscopic would be the adjectival form referring to a device for looking under water.
And Hydrophillic would relate to something like a paper towel that mops up water rather than attracting it like brake fluid which is Hygroscopic not Hydrophillic.

Maybe American English is different in these meanings though?

Yes Peter, I have been to the Maryport sea-life place. It is small but pretty good and well run. That sounds like a description for an MG too!
Guy Weller

Fletcher,

Just an adjunct to your reference to Mazda vehicles and ethanol fuel. We have a Mazda Tribute, 2006 build. Only once about three years ago, in error, topped the tank (probably 3/4 volume) with 10% ethanol blend - ran like a dog! Economy (by book calculation of fuel/distance) dropped the 10% you mentioned. We avoid ethanol blends now as a rule. I spoke with our Mazda dealer who informed me that our experience matched exactly their own experiments with the blended fuel on Mazda cars of that era.

I don't know the situation regarding more modern Mazda models, but suspect they have adjusted their engine management systems to accommodate the inevitable increasing reliance on blended fuels. Local Holden Commodores are now being produced to specifically require the blended fuels.

Down here we are seeing an increasing reliance on the 10% blended fuels. There is even talk of increasing the blend ratio. In my B I run unleaded 98 octane (no ethanol), it pings on unleaded 91 or 95 (premium) octane. Of course I am paying top price for that fuel but don't do enough regular miles for to to hurt that much. Still pings me off that all of this is being foisted on me while our politicians spend our tax dollars flying all over the world to conference on climate change!!

I suppose at some time I will have to trade the Tribute in on a model built to run (crawl) on the Blended mix. Of course no one will want the Tribute with its dependence on non-ethanol fuel, so I can imagine the deal that will be offered.

Regards
Roger
Roger T

Guy-
Up above, I stated that my reference was the OED, how British do you demand?
Don't know what your reference was, but my paraphrase of the OED re combining forms of made up words would explain your "hydroscope". That, or other invented words, may have made it into your reference source.
"hydrophilic" is used scientifically to denote molecules (or ends of molecules) which attach to water, (as opposed to lipophillic", attaching to fats & oils) which seems to apply. I have always used "hygroscopic" for describing brake fluid, which probably came from Castrol when they introduced GTLMA, and the explanation thereof, so I was a bit surprised to find that it also appears to be a made up use of a previously existing word.

Peter - trouble is, not using the info, I seems to have put it on some obscure shelf and can't find it in the murky - but will keep you in mind. Worst part is, I came across some substance mentioned in the last few months that was of interest, and said "Make a mental note of that", but my mental stenographer seems to have been out for lunch just then. (and not come back with the sandwiches!)
Is it that Aldon's supplier only want tanker orders?
I think it is generally accepted that people doing this stuff are idiots, but hoped that they are not, to the extent of the local area being safe. Since you are far away, I'll yell you anything that I find!

Roger- It does not seem to be Mazda only, as I've heard other makes mentioned, carbs & FI. Although my 90-94 Mazdas do not have knock sensors, which surprised me. My cars all run fine on whatever I use (cheapest stuff in the pumps), but the ethanol gives the mileage drop. When I bought my Protege, I drove it home 700 miles at a road average of 76mph and 34.5mpg, but the mileage dropped to about 31-32 in regular use. Figured it was just the twisty road driving style. But we took a 10,000 mile trip and got two distinct mileage regimes 30-31 and 33-34. I finally realized that the good numbers were when I had fueled in non-ethanol areas, while the low ones were in the ever expanding ethanol ones, dominant to near exclusive in the Northeast US and west coast.

FRM
FR Millmore

Hi FR

The problem for Aldon is the manufacturer prepares F1 fuels etc. All the equipment has to be changed and or cleaned after a producution run which makes a run of 10000 litres too small. Tis a shame as this is the most effective booster we have used.
Peter Burgess Tuning

This thread was discussed between 20/06/2012 and 23/06/2012

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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