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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Engine out tips

My engine may have a rear oil seal leak (although I am not sure now since fixing the sealing block leaks at the front of the engine a couple of weeks ago). On the other hand I definitely have a gearbox leak from somewhere towards the front of the box (Probably the front oil seal I would have thought). As you can probably work out I also have a badly contaminated clutch which will have to be replaced. So the engine has to come out; and the gearbox. I have a good idea what to do has anyone any pointers or good pieces of advice before I start in a couple of weeks time? Should I get an alignment tool for instance? Anything else?

Can't wait for a good clutch and the ability to use some of the power - ha - haa :-). Wimpy moderns are slow on the bends and corners so would be good to be able to drive on past instead of being stuck at a poor acceleration with them. Have particular bad slips in top.

Thanks Dave.
Dave Squire 1500

There's lots of tips on engine removal in the Archives.

My advice is remove engine and gearbox as one unit (remember to unbolt the prop shaft in the case of a 1500).
Chris Hasluck

Clutch kits come with alinment tools, (and now that ive jinked that concept....haha)

The biggest tip, take your time, take lots of time outs, when you fill stressed stop, ad drink a tea for 10 min. And expect to pay several more times then what was budgeted, and a good friend (experianed or not ) is a great shop asset esp if he will work for free pizza and beer

I know thats not what your wanting to hear, but thats the best advice I have considering how many times ive yanked my engine....the abovehas always paid back in gold....esp the friend part, even if all they do is keep a 5 gallon bucket warm in the corner of the shop and are under foot most of the time...its hard to beat having a good friend as your best tool in the shop.

Exception... girl friend !!! (LOL)

Prop





Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Target times; about 1 1/4 hours to remove and 1 1/2 to replace E & G. ;-) Assuming that you don't stop for a 10 min tea break!
Guy W

Guy... it takes alot longer then 1:15 hour/ minutes to boil the water for the tea, even the pizza guy takes 1/2 hour.....LOL

I think 1 hour 15 minutes is an exceptional time if nothing is frozen or rusted into place and you have done it several times, have alot of tools and everything goes off without a hitch and lady luck is drunk and horny for you

But a 1st time puller, in an engine that hasnt been pulled in many years....eeh, im going to say an hour and 20 minutes ....hahaha

Okay seriously.... im going with a full sunday is more realistic....after all its hard to scratch your head and drink hot tea at the same time

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

That is why I called it a target time Prop. Targets are no good if you can easily hit the bullseye at the first shot! But they still have to be attainable.
I have removed from my 1275 in 55 minutes from a running car to engine and gearbox on the garage floor. And my best time for replacement was just over 1 15 minutes. Both working alone, but with an engine that has been removed quite frequently. But I know that some others are quicker yet than I. It also varies with which Mk car you have.
Guy W

Dave,

Whether you remove engine and box together or just engine and then box tends to be personal preference. 6 will do it one way, half a dozen folk the other way.

What year is your car? There were two different types of gearbox front seal on the Triumph boxes. Earlier types had a scroll type seal, so it you are parking with the nose downhill oil will weep out into the bell housing. There is a small hole in the bottom of the bell housing to let the oil dribble out (genius! ha ha!). Later types had a "proper" lip seal. I think it was some time around '77-'78-ish they changed but I can't remember. Mine is 76 and has a scroll seal.

If you need a clutch alignment tool (I would doubt kits do come with them, but you never know!) then I have one and would happily post it down. It's only a wee plastic thing so must only be a matter of pence. Just as long as it gets returned when you are done.

Prop... My girlfriend is doing a cracking job helping out in the garage these days!

Cheers,
Malcolm

M Le Chevalier

Having done it both ways - IMHO the easier (it's relative) route is to remove both engine and gearbox together.
Being at an age where several teas/coffees/choclate biscuits (and a helpful friend) are required for this type of job, I'm impressed with Guy's times!
Jeremy Tickle

From memory I'd go with Guys' times as I have the engine out a few times in the past. Helps having a front hinged bonnet on the frogeye as that is the first thing to be removed and all is easily accessed after that.
David Billington

I dont know... I think its better to be good and slow then fast and unattentive

But then agian, id never suggest replacing a cly head in under 3 years....slow and steady wins the race....LOL

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I don't want to hijack this thread, but suffice to say there are lots of little adaptations that can be made to simplify and speed up the engine R&R process.

Dave is asking for standard tips. It does vary a bit by model, and I recall that the 1500 can be a bit more awkward than earlier cars a couple of places.

On an A series, I disconnect the carbs and exhaust manifold from the block and just pull them back out of the way and fasten back with a couple of zip ties. It saves disturbing any other exhaust joints or disconnecting the carb control cables or fuel pipe. But on the 1500 those manifold studs are hard to get at and it is easier to disconnect the control cables and undo the 3 manifold to exhaust bolts.(but expect these 3 to be seized!) Disconnect the fuel supply at the pump inlet and leave the rest, including carbs and manifolds, attached to the engine.

Mark the prop shaft UJ flange at the back. The 4 bolts are unequally spaced so it will only go together one of two positions and the separate parts should all be in balance anyway, but its better to be sure.

Undo the clutch slave cylinder clamp and pull the cylinder back out of the way (another zip tie) without having to disturb the hydraulics.

Don't forget to undo the engine to chassis earth strap. For some reason it is so often overlooked until you start to hoist and the engine feels like its snagging on something! Some 1500's also have a safety cable between bell housing and chassis . Its some weird American safety idea, which I never found convincing.

Don't mess around removing starter alternator etc, just unplug their cables and lift them with the engine.

Trolley jack positioned under the tail end of the gearbox with its wheels in line with the car helps to adjust the angle of the lump as you begin to lift and bring it forward out of the engine bay.

Before removing the bonnet mark the hinge positions in some way. Masking tape along the edges or better still, drill an extra hole for a guide pin (assuming the bonnet is correctly located to start with!). Some leave the hinge bracket undisturbed where it bolts to the bonnet, and remove the two long pivot bolts up behind the dash, but I have never tried it that way.

Remove the dizzy cap and HT leads off as a set. You don't actually have to, but the caps are easily cracked if the engine swings about a bit when coming out.

If new to this, take digital photos of bits before disturbing them - it may help to remind you later when you get to the bit about "which way up was this bracket?" and "did this cable go in front or behind the pipe?"

Disconnect the battery before you start.

Sorry for random order!!
Guy W

Factory operation manual reckons 4 hrs 20 mins to replace clutch - from driving in to driving out - including clearing up!

This is what a dealer garage would charge you for in time - back in the day when there were any!

I reckon on 90 mins each way on a cold engine plus 20 mins to clean up and change the clutch - just taking out the engine.
Chris at Octarine Services

Thanks guys, that's very much appreciated.

Maybe get the time to remove engine and replace down to a reasonable time on third attempt (like cylinder heads) but probably take me a weekend first go so I need to cover all the angles for the clutch before I start.

Please look at new thread re 'seals and gaskets in clutch area'.
Dave Squire 1500

Take your time, if you need a hand give me a shout and I'll help if I can.
Pete Ottewell

Take your time, if you need a hand give me a shout and I'll help if I'm about.
Pete Ottewell

Dave... there is one area that may be demon Possesed

The pilot bushing... it fits into the end of the crank shaft and the tranny shaft fits into it..everyone ive ever dealt with was a huge head ache

To remove there is a trick called stick n grease...you fill the hole with grease and beat a stick into the hole, supposedly the bushing just pops out ....hahaha, yeah right!!!

Getting this thing out can take several hours and the killing of all your neighbors

I found a tool called a blind hole puller...it takes less then 15 sec. And its out, definatly worth the $30 I paid for the kit

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop - the grease method does work but you need to have a tight fitting mandrel whether wood or an old input shaft and you HAVE to hit it VERY hard with a big hammer.

By far the easiest way is to take a narrow chisel and just drive it into the edge of the bush, it folds up and falls out - takes about 2 mins to remove - any slight scratches in the crank are of no consequence and may actually help stop the new bush rotating in the crank in future.

Finally don't forget to pre-oil the bush.
Chris at Octarine Services

Yep the chisel method worked for me! All done and dusted in a couple of mins
Bob Beaumont

Guy W,
You must be on your A game and pulled quite a few A series engines to do it in an hour and fifteen I would think. I believe you must be all business when you start working. Do you use magnetic trays to hold the nuts and bolt? I wish you had a time lapse camera and posted some of your experiences....It would be cool to see! Ive done two
clutch jobs on that style engine now but never that fast...My hat is off to you!:-)

Steven Devine

No Videos Steven. I have heard about people like you asking innocents to post videos of themselves on t'internet! (that sounds like Nigel, but in truth I don't have a video camera anyway)

The 1hr 15mins to remove and engine & gearbox was what it was taking me about 10 years ago, on a car that had been rebuilt with all new bolts, and plenty of copperease. With 10 "added years" I doubt I could do it quite as fast nowadays!

If you are organised and nothing is seized up it is fairly easy to do in 1hr 15 mins. Others who regularly do the job will be faster than that. I then tried to see just how fast I could do it and got the 55 minute time set against a stopwatch. Its down to being organised in advance, methodical, and having nuts that will spin off their threads by hand once they have been initially loosened.

There are really only 3 spanner sizes needed(maybe 4 if you add a BA spanner for the starter motor terminal) So to avoid scrabbling around with too much stuff to choose from I had just the ones needed, two of each size in combination ratchet spanners the same sizes in 1/4" drive sockets. I use a chain hoist off a fixed beam in the garage and have some "adaptations" to my car which speed up the job (e.g. slotted engine mounts, slotted clutch slave cylinder, rad comes out with just two bolts to undo). I don't work logically by type of connection, by which I mean I don't disconnect all of the electrics as one stage, but work spatially, undoing everything that I can reach from the top and just working clockwise around the engine bay, then inside, then underneath. Then hoist! Simples!!
Guy W

Hahaha....guy,

Are you reading that dave....

Granted this is your 1st time but if you dont achive this in 1:20 - 1:30, we are all going laugh at you as a failure ...lol

My first time, I think it took me 45 minutes just to pull the radiator....and that was before I boiled my tea water

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Seriously guy

What do you think dave should actually be looking and planning time wise at to remove the engine and gear box, im certian he dosnt have your set up, experiance and tool collection...im sure he will have several trips to the store included

My thoughts are a full day would be a fair assement

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

The problem Prop, at least I find the problem is if you take too long over it you loose focus on the job and it ends up taking 3 years instead of 3 hours. What's your experience?

Dave uses his car pretty regularly and in the past has wanted to do jobs over a weekend so that he can use the car for work again on the Monday morning. My guess is that if he doesn't faff around with other stuff he could say, start at 9.00 and have the engine gearbox out and split to expose the clutch by 11.00 Take a break, wash hands,check on the manual, re-sort the tools and have a coffee. Then restart and check the repairs needed to gearbox front cover and engine rear oil seal. Decide on what to replace, what to repair and what to leave well alone. Have lunch.

Then, by 1.30, and depending how much is involved he will either get the sorting done by 3.00, leaving time to get the engine and gearbox refitted the same day. Or more likely will spend the afternoon sorting it out and tidying up ready for a fresh start the next morning to replace the engine, get it running and test drive in the sunshine.
Guy W

It only takes me an hour to remove the engine on my A and that is a much bigger job because everything has to be removed to get the engine through the bonnet aperture, and access is in some places a job for a contortionist. The midget has a lot more space to get at things. To get the engine back into the A and running again takes about two and a half hours if nothing has been disturbed to require the valves to be reset, but that only takes 20 minutes extra. So I reckon Chris' time is absolutely possible if you have the right tools and stay focused and have all the necessary bits on hand.
Dominic Clancy

Guy...

That sounds reasonable

Im soooo hoping the weather works for me this weekend, if so I can readjust my valves and fire the engine agian

That would be a good valentines day to get it running agian

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Ok Guy... I believe you could do it that fast even if you dont have a vid to show....:-) Its fun to challenge yourself once you get all the nuances of where everthing is out of the way!

You can make a vid with your cell phone these days you know...Thats how deny did his. Its kinda scary what your phone is capable of these days.

Mgas Ive removed and put back over 25 of those motors.
I dont think Ive ever been under the 2 hour mark going full bore to get one out. (With transmission)

I know it is possible to pull the engine at 8:00am in the morning. Install the replacement and have it all sorted out and driving ready to hand over to the customer by 4:30. No breaks and eating lunch with one hand and spinning spanners wth the other!:-)
Steven Devine

Thanks for all your comments and support and as Guy says; I work better under pressure as my lack of confidence when doing a new part of the car gets in the way. However the rad was out a couple of weeks ago se that's easy. The head was off middle of last year so detaching down pipe is a simple matter. Petrol pipe was replace August time so new connectors there. Accelerator and choke are just a faf.

There are 4 concerns.
I have tried and failed to uncouple the alternator connector several times. I have also failed to get the alternator off its pivot. (grrrrr). Its a mystery to me how it uncouples. Any advice?
I have never undone the engine ground connection although I do know where it is.
The engine mounts look interestingly very rusty (any prep I can do?)
The gearbox mounts are so oily they will either just undo or the tools will slip off them.
The prop shaft looks easy enough?

I am looking at doing it next week end or maybe the one after that. I have spent some time falling over my spare gearbox which I dug out in the week. I keep thinking I should give it a go so deciding what I can do to test that to see if its OK before I put a decidedly worn gearbox back in that will need attention in a few months anyway.

New thread - Checking an unknown gearbox.
Dave Squire 1500

I agree it takes at least two hours to take an MGA engine and gearbox out together, it's much faster to do the two separately. Is it easy to insert a Midget gearbox and engine together or is it also much easier done with them as separate units?
Dominic Clancy

Much easier to put them in together.
Well actually its much easier to get the gearbox input shaft engaged with the clutch plate before you lift them in.
At least in my experience.

Best of...
MGmike
M McAndrew

I perfer togather... but its a personal choice

Beyound pulling the cover, for a looksy im not sure how to check

Maybe put a hand drill on the input shaft (front) and give it a spin in all the gears and listen for any forgotten spanners inside the case

.
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

This thread was discussed between 10/02/2014 and 13/02/2014

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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