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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Concentric clutch slave - recommendations

I'm considering to convert to concentric clutch slave cylinder, I have a Ford T9 gearbox fitted.
Would someone by chance use thoose parts and/or know whether a combination of theese Rally Design products can be used?

https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=13883

https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=13879

https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=885_1883&products_id=13880

Jan
Jan Kruber

Jan,
a former BBSer asked me to pass on to you -

"Mention to Jan Kruber, Denmark Thread: Concentric clutch slave recommendations, that the parts he links to are EXACTLY what I have fitted in my Sprite for my T9 conversion. Been in for about 20 years without problems, and I havent even needed to replace either the clutch, the release bearing or the o-ring seals in the slave cylinder yet, -- although I do have a replacement set of O-ring seals bought from Rally design (11 quid)".

Sounds like you will be OK plus they not want I have so that is always a good sign as I normally have sweet FA luck with anything to do with my midget, the fluid is still black despite a thorough flush and change.
Nigel Atkins

Jan,
there was a second message with photos (the photos I'll need to email to you as the detail will be lost here).

"PS give these pic’s to Jan as well.

Explain that the slave is made by TITAN. Rally design seem to be the cheapest place to buy it, I think they are cheaper than Burton. The seal kit is definitely cheaper than Burton, not that he’s like to ever need one, as I mention below, I haven’t used mine.

P.S. as well as the parts listed in Rally design he may need a spacer. I have one in mine. Burton do sell these spacers, but you could make one if clever.

Link to spacers. ..." [sorry the link doesn't work so well on here].
Nigel Atkins

Jan,
I can't forward photos as I no longer have your email address, if your email box can stand it email me and I will capture your address.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
You'r the man - you got mail :-)
Jan Kruber

No I'm only the conduit.

I know because the other day, in the street someone shouted I was, at least I thought it was that they shouted.
Nigel Atkins

Retro Ford have kits for around 145 pounds that include everything
William Revit

That is what Colyn Firth has fitted to his MGA and what will go into mine when I fit my 1950 engine

You probably need to add a spacer between the back of the concentric slave and the front cover to get the position of the release bearing correct, in the MGA this is about 30mm (I can check later if you need). This is a critical measurement for your clutch to operate correctly

Dominic Clancy

Nigel

Good info from the former BBS member, thanks for finding out and sharing, Wish Lawrence well!

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Dominic,
I can't remember where you are with your car but speaking as the owner and user of a T9 conversion (for the last 8 years) I would say if I had the opportunity then 11 times out of 10 I'd have the Mazda conversion over the T9.

Nigel Atkins

Mike,
you're making assumptions.







... I'll pass on your good wishes. ;)
Nigel Atkins

Mike,
the former BBSer, whoever that might be, asked me to pass on -

"Say Hi to Mike. 😊"
Nigel Atkins

I am very happy with the T9, which I have had for a few years. I would be even happier if it wasn't a chronic leaker.

The Mazda box kit from Vitesse has a very mixed reception, (see here for example https://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?2,3727676) and it's not available for the low starter cars like mine.

I heard that Peter Gamble is having a modern five speed gearbox made to the same dimensions as the T9, and that will be offered with his kits in future
Dominic Clancy

Glad to hear you're happy with the T9, it really feels like a family saloon box to me unfortunately. You probably know that the speedo cable grommet is a common leak place but my T9 also leaks from other places too.

Not good to hear the lack of research by Vitesse, I only quickly looked at their site but did wonder about the photo of the kit fitted to a bare frame.

I was thinking that perhaps like JohnMac on here with his Midget conversion you might look at making up your own installation.

I used to have a MX-5 Mk2 and drove my mate's Mk1 (Eunos) and the gear changes were lovely, better even than the lovely Spridget gear lever feel (if you could find a Spridget box in such good condition).

Having seen the Vitesse display at the NEC, again quite briefly the thing that struck me was how log the box and bell housing looked. I thought the kit was only for MGBs at the time and was only enquiring if they'd had problems with the concentric clutch spewing out black fibrous bits in the clutch fluid.

Decades ago my neigbour's mate who (still) races MGAs offered to build me a MGA with Rover V8 engine as he had a spare chassis, body and RV8 or he said he put another engine in if I wanted, I think he had a couple of spare B-series 1800 engines but can't remember if they were three of five bearing, racing seems to use up components a bit quicker than on road cars.
Nigel Atkins

I suppose the Mitchell Cotts gearbox would be an option if still available. Basically Ford MT75 internals but in a new alloy casing and type9 compatible bellhousing fitting.
David Billington

David,
would it be (as with the standard (later?) MGB box) the standard ratios or can you pick as the thing I remember about the MT75 was the gap between 2nd and 3rd.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,

There seems to be little information about them out there but one place I found the ratios and they didn't look particularly good for a light car.
David Billington

IIRC the Westie Zei 130 I had and my mate still has are with the MT75 and it worked well mated the Zetec 1800 engine in the car except for the gap between 2nd and third. Of course the 16v engine is a bit higher revving than our standard 8v and the power band a bit higher too but I can't remember any problems using the box at low revs.

These were factory built cars with brand new components so I've no idea which ratios would have been in the box.
Nigel Atkins

Hi
Consider this.
2017 and, with others, have organised an Alpine Tour.
To RVP at Mulhouse with three French domiciled crews.
150 miles away a clutch slave ruptures. They phone me for assist but my group are about same distance in opposite direction.
They drop the slave in a car park, hire a modern for motorways, and bring the slave to me for reconditioning. My group are now at Mulhouse.
The slave was fit for the dustbin...but.....
I 'lapped' the piston on a stone using water for lube. Cleaned the bore with emery paper and fitted a new rubber , from my Rally Spares bag, with rubber grease.
The "courier" then drove back to the car park - I believe in Beaune.
Once fitted and bled the group made haste arriving at the Hotel at 0300hrs.
The car completed the Alpine Tour.
The moral of this tale is 'keep it simple'. You would not effect such a repair with a concentric.



Alan Anstead

Ok gentlemen
Im back, I have been excluded from the society, I got banned! Mike Plumstead did help me back, there was an internet safety issue, I didn't really understand what it was.

Alan
You'r right, keep it simple, but I think having a concentric release sound simple. There are for sure fewer mechanical moving parts between your foot and the release bearing. No slave cylinder clevis pin wear, no fork pivot wear, no fork pivot bracket wear.
You'r are right, again, you can not make the repair on the road as you mentioned above, but the "concentric people" with whoom I'm in contact, state that they find it a very durable solution.
I'm sure, that if I had focused on making a tiny gap between the bearing and the clutch cover, everything would be working fine now.
I had bad luck though (or lack of experience), when I fitted the T9 box last winter. I was not focused on a tiny gap between the clutch cover and the bearing. That means, that all of the parts have been on tension all of the season 2018, 3500miles, so I have to buy at least a new roller bearing. But I know my self, I can see wear on the pivot bracket and the gearbox nose guide tube and the bearing carrier. I think the parts would work, but I allways assemble and thrust, that it is never to be dismantled again, hopeless optimist as I am, and therefore I might as well put some new parts in. I know, that before the winter is over I would have ordered the parts mentioned. In stead I have decided to use the money on a concentric conversion - because I'm never going to dismantle it anymore........ :-)

Jan Kruber

Keeping it simple is not having the parts fail prematurely in the first place.

I've had the non-concentric clutch go on mine (is it three or four times I can't remember) in the 9 years since the conversion was fitted, of course I did buy and have the kit installed by a poor quality provider. On at least two of the occasions even Alan's excellent ingenuity would not have effected a roadside repair.

If I'd have had the likes of Alan doing the work in the first place I doubt I'd have had the problems as Alan would have corrected and improved the kit supplied but he wasn't and I did.

Nigel Atkins

Fixing Sprites and Midgets on tour is often a challenge. On the last, in the centre of a French village, had to improvise on brake cylinder rubbers.
Luckily it wasnt raining.
Alan Anstead

So much for keeping it simple...!

I have just resurfaced from the man cave where I have made a bracket to attach a hall effect sensor to the differential casing. This will pick up pulses from a 4-magnet collar on the diff input collar and provide the right frequency VSS impulses to make my Yaris-based electric steering assistance fully variable according to kph.

I have zero space left under the dashboard, and yet everywhere else it all looks completely standard (apart from the bracket and sensor on the diff.)

The 1950cc supercharged version is about ready to go into action, all the bits are here and the only thing left to do is some careful measuring for the oil breather system to make sure everything fits with the supercharger belts and pulleys and tensioner arm. Still wondering about carb choice : HIF44 or HS8..... the HIF fits and I suspect the HS8 will not, but is the HIF enough for the engine.... Decisions.....

Now it's beer o'clock
Dominic Clancy

Alan,

>>had to improvise on brake cylinder rubbers.
Luckily it wasnt raining.<<

My imagination is running away with me, what was used and was it significant to if it rained other than not wanting to work in the rain?


Nigel Atkins

Dominic,
do you need assisted steering on a MGA, because of the alterations or a personal need or want, or just because you can?
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
Different manufacturers and different brake pistons. The piston had a piggy back rubber rather than rubber behind piston. We found a rubber to use as primary seal but it didnt fill the void so after an initial attempt to make a spacer from a bypass hose we settled for butchering anothe brake rubber as a spacer. The emergency / temporary fix is apparantly still doing excellent service.
The stories I could tell about repairing cars on tours.
Alan Anstead

Forgive me for going off thread but it is such a good picture of team effort in the wet. headlamps failed so sidelight circuit was rewired into headlights. A pro autoelectrician in the Club was called upon to sort the problem when back in Blighty.
Car is an IOW Frogeye Super Sprite circa 1994.


Alan Anstead

Very good Alan, but did nobody spot the pickpocket?
GuyW

My mind was on less technical matters, but now I know.

My big concern with the IOW photo is that something placed on the roof.

The stories I could tell you about car repairs, off and on tours, although I've only ever won our club's Pist'n Broke trophy once and I don't think it was for a breakdown of me or the car.

Alan, you ought to do a thread of some of your stories, I'll exclude myself as I have far too many.

Nigel Atkins

See that LED flashlight in the gravel next to the kerb? I have the EXACT SAME THING! Spooky!
It's a really good flashlight BTW.
Greybeard

I wonder, did the nice man in the white pants ever find out who was sneaking up his wallet from his back pocket while everybody was focused on the repair?
Jan Kruber

At least Jan is on the same wavelength! ;-)
GuyW

Guy
You got me - I just translated "pickpocket" to my mother language....ahhh...... how embarrasing
Jan Kruber

By the way
I got a message from the courier, they expect to deliver parts ordered at Rally Design. Then I will measure which spacer I need and order from Burton's or Titan directly.
If the bearing diameter suit thw 1275 clutch pad, what are your opinnion /experience in using that? Itlooks more suited to take the pressure / wear from the roller bearing than the clutch fingers. This provided that there is room for the concentric and a tiny gap between the roller bearing and the clutch pad. The Titan slave is not spring preloaded.
If you are interrested I could conclude this thread by adding images and measurements later on in the season, when the setup I choose has been road tested
Jan Kruber

Don't be embarrassed, Jan. Except maybe for sharing a silly sense of humour!
GuyW

Good evening Gentlemen
I received parts fronm Rally design the other day. Had some time to use in the garage today to make a test assembly. I started with cleaning and when goimg to step one, fitting the front cover it was evident, that the little cover was a vey bad fit. It is largely cast and put in the box. I had to machine the bolt holes to make it fit. I think I will have to put some Blue Hylomar on the oil seal, the surface is very coarse. Once machined it was a good fit.




Jan Kruber

Step two, fitting the hydraulic cylinder was a pleasure, nice fit.
Step three, fitting the bearing is a walk in the park, it's just to slide it on, The center has some plastic on.




Jan Kruber

Step four, fitting the clutch cover without the friction plate. This leaves the clutch fingers in the position where it will be when the clutch is worn totally down.
When having the clutch cover fitted to the engine I can finallt meassure the gap between the bearing and the clutch fingers. The gap is 16mm, that means I will have to order a spacer of maximum 16mm, right ? I think a 1/2" - 12,7mm must be the one....?

I had to disassemble the 1295 clutch pad, that is not an option, the Ford shaft diameter is to large.

Fitting a spacer will make the fitting of the upper bleeding line easier, since the hydraulic will be moved forward 13mm or the like.
(the picture of the hydraulic slave)



Jan Kruber

This thread was discussed between 30/01/2019 and 10/02/2019

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