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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Brake lines - done!

whew, took a few days but feast your eyes on that.

Copper-nickel tubing from Federal Hill (US). Clutch, fuel and brakes.

Just 1000 more steps to go!
Norm "my thumbs are tired" Kerr

:oD





Norm Kerr

Nice job Norm, and very rewarding when you can see what you've done.
Mike Allen

That looks really professional. How did you straighten the coils of pipe without ripples?
Mark
M Crossley

just uncoiled them gradually, working it straight as I went, and gun sighted along the length to check my work.

It was remarkably easier than I had expected it would be. Also, very easy to bend tight radius turns without kinking (hard on the thumbs though).

Note, however, that this was with copper/nickel tube. I've no idea what it would be like with other materials (steel, for instance). After what I learned about the various options, it was cupronickel or nothing for me.


Norm
Norm Kerr

Hate to pour cold water on your wonderful installation, however you may find it a tad difficult bleeding the brakes with the supply lines being higher than the master cylinder. It will need an EezeeBleed at least to purge the air.

I only say this as we had a similar thing in the new race car done by it's original builder and he commented that it was a real pain, we're changing that pipework to stay lower than the master cylinders.

Looks a really nice job tho!

Andrew
Andrew McGee

They are routed in their stock locations.

Last time I rebuilt this car I replaced/rebuilt all of the cylinders (so the pipes were empty then too), and had no difficulty bleeding them (used an EZ Bleed).

In fact, I have read over the years many people's complaints about how hard these cars are to bleed, but somehow have never had any difficulty - even with the front/rear distribution "switch".

Now watch, this time I'll have trouble (should have kept my mouth shut!).

Norm
Norm Kerr

Nice job! But flippin 'eck I suspect that the design team must have been on strike when the routing for the LHD brake pipes was devised so instead they gave the job to the Abingdon tea lady...

Why you wouldn't just run a mirror image of the RHD brake pipes I can't imagine. You must have to buy twice as much Kunifer pipe to do a LHD car as a RHD...

That pipe for the LHF brake really does go round the houses! :)
James Bilsland

Doh!

Of course, that's the difference, I couldn't work out why it was different "from stock" then mine..... must be still suffering from the hogmany happenings!

Andrew
Andrew McGee

Good point!

Yes, I guess it would have taken the engineers another 20 minutes to come up with a mirror image of the pipe routing for LHD, so, instead, they just ran another 3 feet of the stuff around the engine bay to keep the RHD version for the rest of it.

hah!

Norm "let's hear it for "world car" design" Kerr

Norm Kerr

Norm,

I'm about to start working on my plumbing systems. I hope my installation looks as good as yours when I am done. I also plan to use copper-nickle brake pipe. I know you made the bends by hand, but do you think a bending tool would have been helpful?

I am at ground zero, I don't have the pipes or the tools I need. Since I don't have a flaring tool I was thinking about buying a pipe set from Moss that has the fittings already installed. Has anyone had experience with these? Does the kit fit well, or do you end up having to make a lot of adjustments?

BTW, I recently saw a tv show where new brake lines were being installed on a custom build. They rolled the lines back and forth between a piece of plywood and a level floor to straighten them. It only took a few rolls and the lines came out perfectly straight. But, that was tv...

Paul
Paul Noeth

Hi
I looked into the kits, but they come coiled up too (still have to make all of the bends yourself), and if you mess up one then what do you do, buy a whole new vehicle set just for that one?

The biggest advantage of a kit would be that the lengths would be (hopefully) all correct right out of the box. I say this because determining the length is hard, and once you've flared the end, and then made that last bend nearest the flare (has to be done in that order - don't forget the nut before you make the flare though!), it is too late to change the length even a little bit.

I did use a bender, made by K-Tool for the 1/4" tubing because it was otherwise difficult to bend without kinking. The 3/16" was easy to bend, and a bending tool is sometimes kind of difficult to use in tight spaces, or to get set in the right position to make a bend in a particular direction, so I made almost all of them by hand just because it was so much easier.

You still have to get the pipe oriented so that both of your thumbs are on the inside of the bend, but thumbs were usually smaller and easier to position than the bender was, for me.

Oh, and my thumbs are pretty tired after a week of that.

here is a photo of the bender I used. Fed Hill loaned me their fancy Sykes-Pickavant bender, but I tried both and decided I liked the K-Tool and used it instead.




Norm Kerr

Follow-up posting:

I heard about rolling the tubing to straighten it but didn't know how, so I did it the "hard" way (by gunsighting down the tube and tweaking it until it was really straight).

From your description, it seems like I could have saved some time. Maybe next time!

Oh, and for reference, here is the S-P tool that is supposed to be the best there is for bending:

- Whichever bender you use, make SURE the groove is the right width. If it is too wide (some cheap benders aren't made real well), the tube WILL kink (scrap).

- When bending by hand, you can feel the tube give a little and you can tell when you have bent it too much in one place and shift your thumbs over a little bit to one side or the other, until you get, say the 90 degrees you were shooting for. This little shifting from side to side allows you to tweak the location and the position of the bend as you go (keep checking it against the body as you go), and it allows you to prevent kinking by distributing the bend along the tube.

With a bender, it all gets done in one shot, so the width of the groove is what spreads the load around and prevents a kink. But it also requires that you START the bend in precisely the right point (once it is bent you are committed).

I found that for my sanity, it was better to buy more tubing and doing it again, than to get too upset about one that got screwed up as I was learning.

Norm


Norm Kerr

Paul,
The college I did my course at had those S-P ones that Norm shows in his last post, I found them to be a bgger to use, the various bits all need to be aligned and then the bend usually seemed to turn out a couple of inches from where I wanted it! So definately just get the tube & fittings - they don't cost a lot & so you can have lots of spare tube to correct your mistakes. Remember its imperial (UNF, I think but check first!) fittings you need. the wee flaring/bender kits aren't expensive and if I have to do it again I'd get one of those.
-Craig
C Robertson

I think you guys are right about getting the pipe and fittings to make up my own rather than buying the set. I am likely to make some mistakes along the way and if I ruin one pipe in the set I'll end up buying separate tubing and fittings anyway. I have to retrieve my old pipes from my storage area to see what I need for length and the number and type of fittings. I am a little uncertain what to get after looking at the variety of hardware on the Federal Hill web site.

The K-tools bender looks like the best choice to me. Eastwood also makes a brake tube pliers that may be helpful and take a little stress off the thumbs when making the final adjustments. http://www.eastwood.com/ew-brake-forming-tool-pliers.html

I am a little torn on the flaring tools. It seems like you have the unreliable under $30 tools and then step up to the plus $300 tools. Not much in between. Federal Hill will rent a good tool for $25 per week, but I know as soon as I send it back I will need it again. I would like to buy a flaring tool, but I don't know if the el-cheapos are worth the trouble. I've read that a lot of folks are having difficulty getting consistent results with them. I'd hate to get everything back together only to find later on that some of the fittings are weeping.

One last question, where do you get the clips that hold the line to the chassis? I didn't see any at Federal Hill or Moss, or perhaps I just didn't know where to look.
Paul Noeth

It may sound obvious, but make the longest ones first. That way if you do mess one up the likelhood is that you can still cut and re-use the undamaged tube for the shorter lengths.
To get the bend where you want it, measure to where you want the bend and then mark the pipe with a felt pen. This makes it much easier to judge the point at which the bend needs to start. There is probably a formula dependant upon the diameter of the forming tool, but even without calculating this, having a point marked on the pipe just makes judging the bend much easier.

Guy
Guy Weller

afraid i used the flaring tool at college - it clamped into a bench vice and made things extremely easy (Looks like eastwoods Professional Brake-Flaring Tool). So not sure about the cheapy ones but occurrs to me you'd need to be making an awful lot of pipes to justify $300! get a cheap one from somewhere local & take it back if it doesn't work properly!
This place may also ship to you:
http://www.frost.co.uk/productList.asp?catID=14&frostCat=Brakes
and their stuff usually is good, their cheap one looks a bit better than the usual cheap ones.
I've seen those brake pliers before & like the idea of them - let me know how you get on!
-Craig
C Robertson

I prebend a house-copperwire first to figure out the bends and length needed and then had brake pipes cut on lenght + fittings at a local carparts shop.
Mine is a LHD 1500 but i had to reroute the brakelines because when the K engine came in the exhaust was running next to the brakepipes...
All hand-bend as my bendingtole didnt work proper.
Later had to rebend a little again as the pipes were in the way of the elec.motor of the heater.


Arie de Best

to answer Paul's question:
"One last question, where do you get the clips that hold the line to the chassis? I didn't see any at Federal Hill or Moss, or perhaps I just didn't know where to look."

look to Brown and Gammons

They stock/sell almost every single part for an MG and their print catalog is worth way more than the 5 GBP it costs because it also SHOWS every single part, which is so valuable when trying to restore an old car.

Moss's print and online catalogs are just about the worst there are for that kind of information. They only show / sell the "general" parts.

VB's print (and online) catalog is pretty good, but nowhere as comprehensive as B&G's.


The only clamps I could not find (anywhere) were the plated steel dual line clamps for the split braking system's lines that run parallel from the MC, along the firewall and down the RH footwell. XK's Unlimited shows something similar in their catalog but I have not researched further (my old clamps cleaned up pretty well so I'll re-use them).

Norm
Norm Kerr

Norm, I'm not familier with Brown & Gammons, but their catalog sounds like it would be very useful. The 5 GBP for the catalog is not too bad, but the 8.85 GBP for the shipping put me off a little. That's a bit over $22 US total.

Low and behold, I got a new Victoria British catalog in the mail today and they have the clips and straps, so that little problem seems to be solved. It looks like I need to get this stuff ordered so I can go to work.

Thanks to all for the help.

Paul


Paul Noeth

Hi

I found that Automec kits are good, see:
http://www.automec.co.uk/collections/brake-piping/products/mg-copper-nickel-brake-pipe-set-lhd

I have done a number of Austin Minis, a Series Land Rover and a Talbot Sunbeam with them. Having the old pipes as patterns on the bench really helped though.

They also sell the clips and the proper tools.

I had thought of making up pipes and tried, but the expense of good quality end flaring tools put me off after trying the cheap versions with variable success.

Frosts Auto Restoration, Vehicle Wiring Products sells tools and fittings, as well as Automec.


http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/section.php/47/1/brake-parts/899c082649bdc009cf8afeae8f82ee95

http://www.frost.co.uk/brake-tubing-forming-pliers.html (and flaring tools)


Cheers
Mike

M Wood

I have the Eastwood Pro Brake Tubing Flaring Tool # 25304. Read the reviews on their website. I couldn't say it better. Well worth the money. They do go on sale. The only down side for the chaps across the pond is the weight of the whole kit. Shipping would be expensive. Maybe someone over there sells a similar kit.
J Bubela

Note to all: I think this was one of a few recent threads that were resurrected by a spammer posting dodgy links.

It would appear the webmaster has removed the offending post that initially resurrected this thread (it was in before Mikes post). So if you now look at the dates it is all a bit confusing.

So, anyway, I think this conversation is dead, so don't trouble yourselves in posting.

Cheers,
Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

Norm,
I used the kit from Moss. Fit perfectly. Copper/Nickel bends very easily compared to steel. Used old tubes as a guide and spent some time figuring out the bending tool. Once I got that figured out all went quickly. As long as you do not kink the tube there is not much you can do to harm the set. Work on bends until all fittings can be screwed in by hand. Then no cross-threads to damage fittings. Good luck.

Jim Haskins
J. M. Haskins

This thread was discussed between 31/12/2009 and 10/05/2015

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.