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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - 1275 Engine Alloy Backplate

I'm toying with the idea of splashing out on one - does anyone know the weight saving involved?

Cheers

James
James Bilsland

I have a spare.....
John Collinson

James... why stop at the backplate? Fit a Kseries for even more ally.

A
Anthony Cutler

Anthony - I think the other B class competitors might get a bit miffed if I turned up with a 200bhp K series....

John - I will mail you off list...
James Bilsland

James, it's all the rage in Oz Club Racing!

A.


Andrew McGee

James being that your following my lead....you might as well get an aluminum fredinza flywheel to go with the aluminum back plate...lol.


ebay number 120325290504


Prop
Prop

Thanks Prop...

...but I think I'll stick with my nice strong steel one thanks - at 8500rpm I like the peace of mind that I'm not going to get shrapnel in my ankles (for instance if the clutch, the ringgear or the insert comes adrift...)

Its about half the weight of a standard cast iron one mind...

Why did you go for an alloy flywheel on a road car?

James 'worried at the suggestion that he's following Prop in any way' Bilsland
James Bilsland

Oh and Prop, you missed an 'i' out of 'aluminium'

;op

James Bilsland

LOL.

I lucked out and got a good used Fredinza. on ebay, I liked what the website had to say, esp. the part about taking pressure off the bearing shells

considering I had the en40B crank indexed, polished, new radii (vizard specs) and balanced, the 521 rods lightened, polished, and balanced, along with the pistons And chromemoly 5/16 tubular manton Pushrods custom made, the fly and clutch balanced and planning on doing aluminum pullys at a later date combined with a aluminum backplate that came from rivergate

the Aluminum flywheel seemed a logical choice...needless to say, no harmonics in this engine.

Prop
Prop

Prop, good job you didn't luck out on getting an aluminum crank, wouldn't the baking soda simply dissolve it?
Tarquin

"I lucked out and got a good used Fredinza" - More like out-a-lucked, since the thing didn't clear the oil pump and doesn't fit the starter. Did you crack test it?

FRM
FR Millmore

You will be happy to know, I not only had it crack tested, I even got a counter-sink and champfered all the screw holes...AHHhhh! (before the balanceing)

Sometimes Im brighter then a dime...LOL

Prop
Prop

Tarquin,

You laugh about an aluminium crankshafts...But before I learned the dirty little secrete about 2 cycle engines for lawn care made for here in the USA built in china...I purchased a catogory 2 two stroke motor powered leaf blower and along with the aluminum rings and the 24 gauge sheet metal connecting rods, the crankshaft was made from aluminum....

At least I didnt spend $200 and get a catogory 3 engine with a compliance period of only 15-20 hours.

Now I own a catogory 1 leaf blower made from sthiel... should last a good 20 yaers or so.

Prop...Yeah, its even got fuel and air filters.

Prop

James,
If you go back to the Brit who first managed to extract the metal from alumina, you will find that Humphry Davies named it "aluminum". Why you posers would want to add an extra syllable is puzzling.
David "it is lighter without the extra letter" Lieb
David Lieb

well Like nukeular vs nukelier...Im just guessing at the spelleng LOL
Prop

I thought that would get a response from David, great sruff, he just loves to try and justlfy american english slang as a language of it's own...

Prop I thought it was nuclear in both English and American slang, but will take your word that it isn't.

bob "always up for it" England :-)

Thanks David you made my day

Bob "my bumpers are Chromum plated" :-)
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Hey Robert,

Nuclear...Is one of those words that crosses all classes and boarders of humanity here in the USA.

Bush, carter, sarah palin.... HMmmm Okay just the idoits (lol.) have trouble with the pronounciation, Sadly because Of my regional dialiect,,,I dont even know the true pronounciation...here is a great short read on the topic...and the basis for many stand up comedians

http://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/beastly/#Nuclear


Mmmm...apperantly you will have to click on the word.
Prop

I well remember listening to a whole morning's worth of 'Aluminum', this and that, at an engine design discussion at Cummins in the UK. One of the Scots engineers, from the Shotts plant, stood up after lunch and asked 'If we could now change ends please and use the technical term Aluminium for the rest of the afternoon!' Result harmony all round.

I was once asked to explain, to a lady in Boston, that we used to have professional 'Knocker uppers' in Lancashire in the 1800's. (They were paid to use a long pole to tap on mill workers bedroom windows at 6.00am in the morning to wake them up for work!!!)

And I always thought we spoke the same language!

Peter
PJ HOBSON

James, I have just got one from Moss and unlike all the others I have seen it is the same (if not slightly less) thickness as the cast one. That makes it even lighter at 1.07kgs than the 1.77kgs quoted in Daniels book compared to the 3.99kgs of the standard one. I will have to be carefull the car doesn't take off after it's fitted!

On a similar subject, does anyone know of somewhere in the UK I can get lightweight steel (or ally) flywheel for use with a STANDARD clutch? I only seem to be able to find ones for the 7 inch clutch. Might as well try and lose some weight there while it's in bits.

John
John Payne

Bobert,
In case you did not actually read my post, allow me to reiterate that the name was invented by a Brit. In fact, the very Brit who managed to be the first to refine aluminum. If he cannot name it as he pleases, who can? Slang is not involved. I guess you use tantalium capacitors and your favorite spanners are made of chrome-molybdenium?

I do find it interesting that you should attempt to use the term "slang" in a perjorative sense. American reference books have assiduously eschewed the use of slang and refused to dignify it by inclusion in thesauruses and dictionaries. My British volumes, OTOH, appear to delight in including every possible slang word they can find.

Peter,
Imagine a Scot complaining about someone's pronunciation... Interesting indeed!
How many knocker-uppers with how many poles per knocker-upper were required to tap all those windows at "6:00am in the morning" (BTW, us lowly USians seem to think that "6am in the morning is a bit redundant, but what do we know about English?)? As various folk from George Bernard Shaw in every possible direction have been credited with saying, "Two countries separated by a common language."
David "happy not to disappoint" Lieb
David Lieb

Thanks John

...and David I knew someone would bite, actually I often think that American English makes more sense...

So about 2-3 kilos saving... Its not the huge chunk out of the 38 kilos I have to lose to get my car on the class weight limit... Was hoping for more... Still worthwhile though as a partial solution I think.

Bugger looks like the Christmas diet is back on....
J A Bilsland

Take the money you save on food and apply it to alloy panels.
Trevor Jessie

Trevor i like your thinking, but its pretty much all fibreglass already front and back... has a substantial rollcage and metal doors which I'm not too keen to change...
J A Bilsland

No kidding trevor...

I was shocked at the differance for a stock hood (bonnent) for a 71 camero, compared to an alloy hood, (I dont know exactly how much, but its alot)...multiply that by the car...and its huge.

prop
Prop

James,
As long as you don't take it too seriously ;-)
All you have to do is let me know which side you want to argue and I will be happy to oblige. It might even be convincing. If I do convince anyone, however, they need to let me know so I can take up their side for a change.
David "...and remember, my son, ALWAYS be sincere, whether you mean it or not - Michael Flanders" Lieb
David Lieb

from the 'ALUNET' website:

Derived from the Latin ALUMEN for ALUM (Potassium aluminium sulphate). In 1761 French Chemist Louis-Bernard Guyton de Morveau proposed that ALUMINE for the base material of ALUM. De Morveau was instrumental in setting up a standardised system for chemical nomenclature and often collaborated with Antoine Lavoisier, who in 1787, suggested that ALUMINE was the oxide of a previously undiscovered metal.

In 1808 Sir Humphrey Davy proposed the name ALUMIUM for the metal. This rather unwieldy name was soon replaced by ALUMINUM and later the word ALUMINIUM was adopted by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemists in order to conform with the "ium" ending of most elements. By the mid-1800s both spellings were in use, indeed Charles Dickens commented at the time that he felt both names were too difficult for the masses to pronounce!

The patents of both Hall and Héroult refer to ALUMINIUM and the company Hall helped set up was originally called the Pittsburgh ALUMINIUM Company. It was shortly renamed the Pittsburgh Reduction Company and in the USA the metal gradually began to be known only as ALUMINUM (in 1907 Hall's company finally became the ALUMINUM Company of America). In 1925 the American Chemical Society decided to use the name ALUMINUM in their official publications.
MarkH1

And we should take them seriously despite their inability to use either of the accepted standards (standards? we love standards! we have three or four for any given purpose...) in their URL?
David "aluminum is lighter" Lieb
David Lieb

David,

Sithee, yon mon wi'long pole started at 4.00am and wer reet quick on his feet. As very few had clocks ont' mantlepiece they arrived early for work, but, neer thought to blame it on yon mon wi' long pole!

We seem to be moving away from James' original thread, but, I suspect the new thread is along the lines of advice to get his weight down to gain that extra 'tenth' round Brands Hatch!

Peter

P.S. it sounds like he's now been metricated which really is OTT!
PJ HOBSON

That bringe me on to Litre Vs Liter.
I refuse to drive a 1.33 Liter engined Bugeye and don't even get me started on pavements.
Gary Lazarus

Gary,
In that case, perhaps you should contemplate driving a 0.948 liter Bugeye?
David "anonymous" Lieb
David Lieb

or should that be a 79.3ci Bugeye...?
James Bilsland

As for shedding weight from the car I would recommend making all the major components of the car out of unobtanium!Its very popular where I work with ridiculously light parts lying about. Anyone for a titanium gearbox casing?

what is it about tyre sizes? 145mm x 13"!! Is this the same the world over?

Carl
C Bintcliffe

how about just make it all out of magnesium? that oughta be a hoot and a bang.
SB Brecklin

I'm laying up a carbon fibre midget tub at the moment - only trouble is I can't work out how to get it into the oven. We have trouble getting a big Turkey in there at Christmas...
J A Bilsland

Shall I see if I can find a big autoclave for you?

As someone once suggested for Ian Burgin's lightweight Sprite - fit an auto 'box and cut your left leg off!
Dave O'Neill 2

We have an autoclave in work big enough for a Spridget it might just be a little tricky to smuggle it in, nevermind the price of the carbon!

Carl


C Bintcliffe

Dave,
Unfortunately, that would only work in RHD ;-)
David "LHD" Lieb
David Lieb

Dave... I think Dave meant cut his left leg off cos he wouldn't need his clutch foot....

now don't tell me that you have the pedals the wrong way round in the US as well as drive on the wrong side of the road :-) :-)

A.
Andrew McGee

No, the pedals are in the same relative placement here. I understood him to mean that the automatic gearbox would require a wider tunnel, eliminating the room for a left leg. I guess in terms of lightness, you are probably reading it correctly, although I imagine the auto 'box would weigh rather more than the left leg plus the manual 'box.
David "want to see the video of a one-legged person exiting a Spridget..." Lieb
David Lieb

Ian's Frog was (is?) VERY light - somewhere under 400kgs IIRC - he is a F1 suspension designer with Ferrari (now) at the time with Renault I think and had some very light F1 bits and bobs on the car - in FISC he ran an unrestricted revs 948cc engine while the rest of us had rev limited 1380cc (7200rpm) and 750kgs with the driver... He was usually to be found somewhere towards the top of the results sheet if the car finished which it didn't do all the time.

The comment about cutting off the leg was due to the fact that no-one could see any other means of losing more weight off the car so we though the driver was the next best option...
J A Bilsland

A friend of mine had a Speedwell nose made using a vacuum bag process. The untrimmed nose weighs only 12 Lb. Very thin and reinforced with end grain balsa.
Tim Michnay

Gents
I have often looked at the standard backplate and thought that it shouldn't be difficult to make, its just flat plate after all, and providing you are a bit handy with a milling machine, or you know someone who is. Anyway I was wondering if anbody out there knew the dimensions and lay out of the various holes in the plate. I just happen to have a suitable piece of ally plate in store...and I know a man who can ......so you see where I'm coming from.
Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

This thread was discussed between 03/12/2009 and 09/12/2009

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.